| Nice to see this gaining some traction 07:04 - Mar 25 with 15054 views | Darth_Koont |
https://twitter.com/FreeNorthNow
And loving the logo and the slogan.
Just like UKIP (but without the xenophobia and fake news about EU) there’s value in outflanking Westminster political parties despite having no real chance to win power at that level. But they can certainly lose the Hartlepool by-election for a moribund and clueless Labour. And hopefully provide some proper representation for the people of Liverpool.
If it can help drive a more devolved approach to the English regions and better political representation then NIP will have done a great job.
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 08:14 - Mar 27 with 935 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:49 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
That’s awful. And wrong.
Labour is truly done if that’s how slow and limited the current incumbents are. |
Of the current PLP, who do you think would lead the party to victory in 2024 if they took charge tomorrow? |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 09:08 - Mar 27 with 918 views | Herbivore |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 08:10 - Mar 27 by chicoazul |
Labour is done because the Tories have nicked all their policies & presented them much better and have a very popular leader. They are basically better Marxists than Labour are. |
Oh chico, you still don't really understand Marxism. |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:04 - Mar 27 with 890 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 08:14 - Mar 27 by tractordownsouth |
Of the current PLP, who do you think would lead the party to victory in 2024 if they took charge tomorrow? |
There’s the quandary.
They’d need substance to lead the party to victory, but they’d need to lack substance to not be immediately blocked/turned on by the Labour right.
So a change of leadership requires a change of direction. If the Labour Party really is a socialist party to represent the wider society’s interests then, at the top of the party and in the PLP, there really shouldn’t be so many non-socialists representing their own interests within some outdated vision of the technocratic soft Toryism of Mandelson and Blair.
Labour members and MPs should at least be able to support the common-sense social democracy of an Andy Burnham (who HQ staff saw as too much of a leftie, remember?) or a Clive Lewis who represents political reform and a progressive Green alliance to actually get the Tories out. If not, they’re in the wrong party. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:12 - Mar 27 with 879 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 09:08 - Mar 27 by Herbivore |
Oh chico, you still don't really understand Marxism. |
Agreed. I think he sees anything secular and vaguely left-leaning as Marxist.
His first line is pretty accurate though. The substance of Johnson’s ProgressiveLite policies isn’t there, of course, but politically he’s outflanked Labour on much of the common-sense, popular policy stuff. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:19 - Mar 27 with 872 views | Ryorry |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:04 - Mar 27 by Darth_Koont |
There’s the quandary.
They’d need substance to lead the party to victory, but they’d need to lack substance to not be immediately blocked/turned on by the Labour right.
So a change of leadership requires a change of direction. If the Labour Party really is a socialist party to represent the wider society’s interests then, at the top of the party and in the PLP, there really shouldn’t be so many non-socialists representing their own interests within some outdated vision of the technocratic soft Toryism of Mandelson and Blair.
Labour members and MPs should at least be able to support the common-sense social democracy of an Andy Burnham (who HQ staff saw as too much of a leftie, remember?) or a Clive Lewis who represents political reform and a progressive Green alliance to actually get the Tories out. If not, they’re in the wrong party. |
A footballing analogy of your stance re how to get Labour elected is "ITFC shouldn't bother trying to get promoted to the Championship, what they must do to be in keeping with their wonderful history & tradition is become a team of such pure footballers that they rocket from L1 straight into the Prem"  |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:34 - Mar 27 with 868 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:04 - Mar 27 by Darth_Koont |
There’s the quandary.
They’d need substance to lead the party to victory, but they’d need to lack substance to not be immediately blocked/turned on by the Labour right.
So a change of leadership requires a change of direction. If the Labour Party really is a socialist party to represent the wider society’s interests then, at the top of the party and in the PLP, there really shouldn’t be so many non-socialists representing their own interests within some outdated vision of the technocratic soft Toryism of Mandelson and Blair.
Labour members and MPs should at least be able to support the common-sense social democracy of an Andy Burnham (who HQ staff saw as too much of a leftie, remember?) or a Clive Lewis who represents political reform and a progressive Green alliance to actually get the Tories out. If not, they’re in the wrong party. |
Burnham isn’t in the PLP but I think he’ll stand in one of the Manchester seats the Tories took (probably his old seat of Leigh) and win it with a view to standing for leader. I think he’s the one to take it over the line but it’ll take 2 jumps, which is why Starmer staying in post is sensible for now.
I like Clive Lewis’ progressive alliance idea but beyond that he’d be a poor leader. I used to quite like him but he comes across as incredibly smug and if his Twitter account is anything to go by (where he has tweeted his support for The Canary and Skwakbox) the anti-semitism would likely get worse under his leadership. I don’t think he himself is a racist but promoting such outlets suggests he wouldn’t be tough on it.
Burnham has the experience, recognition and broad appeal that Lewis doesn’t have, while being relatively similar policy-wise. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 11:05 - Mar 27 with 847 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:34 - Mar 27 by tractordownsouth |
Burnham isn’t in the PLP but I think he’ll stand in one of the Manchester seats the Tories took (probably his old seat of Leigh) and win it with a view to standing for leader. I think he’s the one to take it over the line but it’ll take 2 jumps, which is why Starmer staying in post is sensible for now.
I like Clive Lewis’ progressive alliance idea but beyond that he’d be a poor leader. I used to quite like him but he comes across as incredibly smug and if his Twitter account is anything to go by (where he has tweeted his support for The Canary and Skwakbox) the anti-semitism would likely get worse under his leadership. I don’t think he himself is a racist but promoting such outlets suggests he wouldn’t be tough on it.
Burnham has the experience, recognition and broad appeal that Lewis doesn’t have, while being relatively similar policy-wise. |
Agree with most of that – although regardless of whether it’s Lewis, Burnham or AN Other, I think a progressive PR/Green alliance is an absolute must. We need to break the cycle of Tories having a minority of votes and an absolute majority in Parliament and they look very comfortable coasting around the 40% mark whatever happens. I also don’t think the UK (and the world) has time for Labour to get in position on its own, not least because they’ve started looking increasingly behind the times over the last year.
I don’t see a problem here with the Canary and Skwawkbox. They’re not my cup of tea but they’re no less of a media outlet and no less dodgy than LBC, the Mail or the Sun. As you know, I feel the antisemitism charge to be massively weaponised and overused. But even a generous assessment of the more right-wing outlets that are deemed acceptable shows them to be hotbeds of xenophobia and indeed islamophobia – and this is consistent and ongoing not some clumsily offensive tweets by Kerry Anne Mendoza. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 11:11 - Mar 27 with 840 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:19 - Mar 27 by Ryorry |
A footballing analogy of your stance re how to get Labour elected is "ITFC shouldn't bother trying to get promoted to the Championship, what they must do to be in keeping with their wonderful history & tradition is become a team of such pure footballers that they rocket from L1 straight into the Prem" |
No. It’s “Do things right and have the right strategy and infrastructure in place” in order to move forward, get promoted and be an effective challenger.
In Ipswich terms, that’s saying we need a good manager but we also need the right setup off the pitch. So Lambert out and, if necessary, Evans out.
Coincidentally, that would involve getting a certain David Evans away from the Labour levers of power. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 11:11 - Mar 27 with 838 views | bournemouthblue |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 08:51 - Mar 25 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I don’t get the Keith stuff. I’m guessing that it’s a way of taking back Keir in the Keir Hardie sense but don’t know.
Agree that it’s not ideal to split the vote but I see it much more as putting pressure on a Labour Party that has taken the North and socialist/social democrat votes for granted for far too long. Basically i see it as a protest against the same disenfranchisement and disillusionment that meant Scotland eventually abandoned Labour.
Labour under Starmer are pretty useless and lack any direction beyond shuffling right draped in a Union Jack. Anything that brings them back onto a more productive course and helps them shape a genuine alternative vision for the UK is a blessing. |
It's funny how Labour rather than the Tories has suffered at disenfranchisement from voters despite the Tories being the chief architects of where we are now after their last decade of power
It's an impressive magic trick they have managed to pull off
If the Tories get in again after the shambles they have made of this Pandemic, there really is no hope left for this country [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 11:36]
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 11:17 - Mar 27 with 833 views | WeWereZombies |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:34 - Mar 27 by tractordownsouth |
Burnham isn’t in the PLP but I think he’ll stand in one of the Manchester seats the Tories took (probably his old seat of Leigh) and win it with a view to standing for leader. I think he’s the one to take it over the line but it’ll take 2 jumps, which is why Starmer staying in post is sensible for now.
I like Clive Lewis’ progressive alliance idea but beyond that he’d be a poor leader. I used to quite like him but he comes across as incredibly smug and if his Twitter account is anything to go by (where he has tweeted his support for The Canary and Skwakbox) the anti-semitism would likely get worse under his leadership. I don’t think he himself is a racist but promoting such outlets suggests he wouldn’t be tough on it.
Burnham has the experience, recognition and broad appeal that Lewis doesn’t have, while being relatively similar policy-wise. |
I like you pragmatic viewpoint on this, and on the 'keep Starmer in post for the moment' this just landed in my inbox:
'Thank you for writing to your MP to tell the UK Government to Ditch Detention for survivors of modern slavery. Because of your pressure, the Labour front bench has now taken on the campaign, and the Parliamentary motion against the detention proposals is now being headed by Sir Keir Starmer.'
I think Starmer deserves a couple of relatively unharassed years to see if he can develop his slow build into an unstoppable force despite my reservations about his unalloyed central control tendency. |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 11:35 - Mar 27 with 814 views | bournemouthblue |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 10:13 - Mar 25 by Darth_Koont |
I think a progressive electoral alliance with a commitment to PR and a Green New Deal could be a winner. It would also be a far more positive vision of the future for the under 40s and minorities who look pretty unrepresented at Westminster and certainly in the national debate.
Who could lead that, I don’t know. Clive Lewis talks a lot about it but possibly too much of a “leftie” for such a broad church alliance. While Sturgeon is already doing this but will rightly be seen as a separatist.
Might even be where a new Labour leader ends up in a year or two just to make any headway at all. But with the people currently running the party that looks a long shot.
What would be telling is to see who from UK national politics starts making real overtures to the SNP, the Greens and minority representatives rather than trying to ignore their issues. |
Proportional Representation is a double edged sword
It's good democratically and adds more value to your vote, it is far more democratic than our first past the post system over here
The system in the European elections rather ironically was proportional and it delivered the Brexit Party as our largest representative party
Whilst PR didn't directly bring the Nazi's to power in Germany, it certainly contribute to it
It got them close enough in, to use the powers available to them to cease control
I would like to think this wouldn't happen in the UK but that's the risk you take with PR
It can cause politics to be more turbulent, which has it's positives and negatives [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 11:38]
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 12:23 - Mar 27 with 793 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 11:11 - Mar 27 by bournemouthblue |
It's funny how Labour rather than the Tories has suffered at disenfranchisement from voters despite the Tories being the chief architects of where we are now after their last decade of power
It's an impressive magic trick they have managed to pull off
If the Tories get in again after the shambles they have made of this Pandemic, there really is no hope left for this country [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 11:36]
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I think it’s been a two-sided approach over 10-15 years. Tory and Labour governments have disillusioned and disenfranchised too many people. In England, the Tory right/UKIP have put right-wing populism into the mix to pick up those that have got tired of Westminster. In a more left-leaning Scotland the disillusioned and disenfranchised have been attracted by a social democratic civic nationalism. Wales seems a mix of the two.
What’s missing here is Labour’s response over the years. They seem entirely split along factional lines between just hanging onto the past and re-painting Blairism as a golden age rather than a contributory factor in the disillusionment and disenfranchisement. And addressing the underlying injustices and imbalances that created them.
Clearly I believe the latter approach is the best for representing the UK and all its citizens best interests. And unfortunately pivoting right and chasing the Tories into the populist, ethnic nationalist weeds is IMO the worst. In political and real terms. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 12:37 - Mar 27 with 781 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 11:35 - Mar 27 by bournemouthblue |
Proportional Representation is a double edged sword
It's good democratically and adds more value to your vote, it is far more democratic than our first past the post system over here
The system in the European elections rather ironically was proportional and it delivered the Brexit Party as our largest representative party
Whilst PR didn't directly bring the Nazi's to power in Germany, it certainly contribute to it
It got them close enough in, to use the powers available to them to cease control
I would like to think this wouldn't happen in the UK but that's the risk you take with PR
It can cause politics to be more turbulent, which has it's positives and negatives [Post edited 27 Mar 2021 11:38]
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True. It can certainly be more turbulent but that’s more often than not about addressing issues and not skating over them and leaving them to fester.
Also good to see this from the perspective of European PR as a whole which while animated isn’t anything like as turbulent and chaotic as in say Italy. The blocs that are needed to form governments resolve their issues ahead of time for the most part. Whereas in the UK we’ve seen the red and blue internal and factional differences being played out in real time and real life and cause severe failures of government, opposition and democracy itself.
Think the bigger advantage of PR is that it should shake up and fragment our frankly awful levels of political discussion from a media that’s pretty much given up. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:55 - Mar 29 with 691 views | GlasgowBlue |
Hey Koonters! Any idea why the leader of this new party you support has locked his twitter account and deleted a series of tweets?
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 19:29 - Mar 29 with 650 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:55 - Mar 29 by GlasgowBlue |
Hey Koonters! Any idea why the leader of this new party you support has locked his twitter account and deleted a series of tweets?
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Is that it? Wow!
I’m guessing he was wary of Akehurst and the rest of you Gnasher/Collier ghouls who would be trying to smear him too.
He was clearly right. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:11 - May 7 with 483 views | GlasgowBlue |
250 votes  | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:16 - May 7 with 471 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:11 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
250 votes |
Very disappointing for Labour but one very very small consolation is that we can put to bed the idea of the NIPs depriving a majority. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:33 - May 7 with 445 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:16 - May 7 by tractordownsouth |
Very disappointing for Labour but one very very small consolation is that we can put to bed the idea of the NIPs depriving a majority. |
I’ve no idea why anyone would believe a Sadam Hussain fan living in Brighton would revolutionise politics in the North East of England. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:35 - May 7 with 443 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:33 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve no idea why anyone would believe a Sadam Hussain fan living in Brighton would revolutionise politics in the North East of England. |
The irony being that the NIP was set up in a response to CLPs being undemocratic but the leader is the fan of a murderous dictator. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:38 - May 7 with 438 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:33 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve no idea why anyone would believe a Sadam Hussain fan living in Brighton would revolutionise politics in the North East of England. |
It's almost like putting a remainer candidate up in a Brexit loving town.
I mean, I have made many mistakes in the past but I would have avoided that one. |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:44 - May 7 with 427 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:38 - May 7 by Lord_Lucan |
It's almost like putting a remainer candidate up in a Brexit loving town.
I mean, I have made many mistakes in the past but I would have avoided that one. |
I don’t think that’s fair. Brexit is done. Looking at it another way, Labour put a GP up in the middle of a pandemic. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:54 - May 7 with 420 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:44 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I don’t think that’s fair. Brexit is done. Looking at it another way, Labour put a GP up in the middle of a pandemic. |
Sorry GB but it was naive at best. Brexit may be done in name but it is tribal and makes people irrational.
I mean, FFS, you read this board right? | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:54 - May 7 with 420 views | m14_blue |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:44 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I don’t think that’s fair. Brexit is done. Looking at it another way, Labour put a GP up in the middle of a pandemic. |
Brexit should be done but very few people are willing yet to move on and even fewer to admit the whole thing is a clusterfcuk they were conned into supporting.
They know it continues to play well with much of the electorate so the tories will continue refighting the battles from 2016 and Labour still haven’t figured out how to react.
I agree with you that the candidate’s view on Brexit should have been irrelevant but unfortunately LL is right, it wasn’t. |  | | |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:58 - May 7 with 411 views | chicoazul |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:54 - May 7 by Lord_Lucan |
Sorry GB but it was naive at best. Brexit may be done in name but it is tribal and makes people irrational.
I mean, FFS, you read this board right? |
It’s amazing how few people get this (not aimed at you GB)
Until or unless Labour are utterly full throated in their support for Brexit/an independent Britain they will stay in the wilderness |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 08:01 - May 7 with 407 views | Herbivore |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 07:44 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I don’t think that’s fair. Brexit is done. Looking at it another way, Labour put a GP up in the middle of a pandemic. |
Brexit is done in name only. The divisions it highlighted (and exacerbated) are still very much there. Those who voted leave are still very emotionally invested in Brexit and see Johnson as their man and they remain hostile to those they perceive as remainers. The government will continue to do all it can to play on that as it's just about a they have in their favour given how vacuous and incompetent they are. Tragically, it looks like that strategy will work for the foreseeable. | |
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