| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... 08:51 - Aug 4 with 16945 views | itfcjoe |
....as can't see any new signings being any more than a bench option.
Sounds as though Fraser and Edmundson won't be fit, and would presume Chaplin not ready to start.
Does leave us a bit thin as really it will be 10 outfield players from 12 starting
KVY, Donacien
Woolf, Nsiala
Penney
Evans, Harper
Dobra, Burns
Bonne, Norwood, Pigott
Will have to be 442 with one of Bonne or Norwood joining Donacien on the bench |  |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:19 - Aug 5 with 2134 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 10:03 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
A lot would depend on circumstances, but given that not winning promotion would be a failure and given his poor performance to date we'd be looking at 18 months of the manager not performing to the level expected. There'd have to be quite a lot of mitigation to justify keeping him in post. |
My mitigation would be if we can see improvement being made.
I personally don't think it should necessarily be all or nothing - promotion or the sack. Simply because it's so much to turn around. I don't think it's necessarily going to be as simple as 'buy better players, easily win the league'. There's a lot going on at the club and I think we'd be hamstringing ourselves by putting that all or nothing pressure on... and then ignoring any progress and doing yet another reset.
I dispute the 18 months because the first 6 were with a totally different team, who hadn't performed for a long time. If you think one season with a totally new team is enough, then I would disagree with that. Rome wasn't built in a day and a successful football club isn't necessarily built in one season. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:19 - Aug 5 with 2134 views | itfcjoe |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 12:40 - Aug 5 by Mach_foreignBlue |
Cook is going to be an excellent manager for us in the long term future. I won't be surprised though if we start poorly as the transition has been monumental. Not only the change of squad, just change of culture too. |
Most clubs at this level have huge changes - Morecambe lost their manager 2 days after the play off final and only had 3 first teamers signed up for this season - one of which Luton bought for £500k, and their captain Lavelle may not play tomorrow because there is transfer bids in for him.
I really don't see us starting poorly, every club has had a big transition and most haven't been able to bring in the quality we have in ours.
We've got a pretty easy start, may be issue we drop a few points in early home games as struggle to break teams down who sit in - but if we lose as many as we win in the first dozen he'll be under big pressure from every angle - including himself.
He knows what the job is. | |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:33 - Aug 5 with 2100 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
He doesn't say it was unrealistic for us to be challenging at the top end, he says that on paper he thinks we weren’t really ready to get promoted (which is about survival once we're up there). Totally different things. And he's just one player, where are the quotes from the rest of the squad?
I don't have low standards, I have realism. I want us to build something sustainable, not be one of those clubs that sack the manager at every setback. Success isn't built on short termism.
You are clearly a modern football fan who wants everything now. That's unrealistic IMO. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:44 - Aug 5 with 2077 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 10:11 - Aug 5 by jayessess |
Rubbish, any manager with Burley's record - 7th, 4th, 5th, 3rd and 3rd in the Championship - absolutely would remain in post for as long as they wanted the job. |
But you're advocating the sacking of Cook after 1 season of non-promotion!
Yes Burley was in a higher division, but he had players for that division. The bigger picture, regardless of division, is he was given time because we could see progress. That's all I'm asking for here. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:45 - Aug 5 with 2074 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 11:16 - Aug 5 by Mach_foreignBlue |
It's not about low standards sneaking back.
It's about backing the manager and not slating him if we are midtable after 10 games. Because some people will be reacting like that if this happens. |
We could quite easily predict those people just by reading these pages. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:46 - Aug 5 with 2073 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 11:21 - Aug 5 by chrismakin |
In fairness, you just said the below
"We've had your low standards at Ipswich Town for a long time now, where failure is acceptable and managers get multiple goes at messing things up. Thankfully, that time is over now"
Whilst the finishes for Burley appear and were great, I can very much imagine the modern football fan seeing it as regular failures of getting us up and it wouldn't take long before people would be saying he bottled it every year, get him out etc, get someone in that can do it |
Quite. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:49 - Aug 5 with 2059 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 11:29 - Aug 5 by itfcjoe |
Well it is, because people are talking as though anything but being right up there is acceptable. Someone even said the other day they would be fine if we finished 10th if they saw good signs. |
That's one person. I'd want to see progress, and 10th doesn't sound like progress. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:50 - Aug 5 with 2052 views | itfcjoe |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:44 - Aug 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
But you're advocating the sacking of Cook after 1 season of non-promotion!
Yes Burley was in a higher division, but he had players for that division. The bigger picture, regardless of division, is he was given time because we could see progress. That's all I'm asking for here. |
We haven't got time to progress out of this division - the SCMP rules make it exceedingly difficult.
If we don't go up this year we'll need to raise another couple of million in fees to ensure next years wage bill remains within the limits.
I can guarantee that everyone in the club from GameChanger, to Ashton, to Cook know that getting up, or coming very close, is the minimum expectation this season and if it doesn't happen Cook will be gone
To try and put some specifics behind it - if we finish 4th and are 3 points of 2nd and lose in the POs then I don't think many will call for his head, if we finish 4th and are 12 points from 2nd and lose then it is a different matter [Post edited 5 Aug 2021 13:54]
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:58 - Aug 5 with 2025 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 12:25 - Aug 5 by jayessess |
The mad thing about it is actually the lack of faith it shows in Cook! He's an excellent manager with a fantastic track record in this division, who has more resources than anyone else in the league, why wouldn't I expect him to ace it? |
There's a difference between expecting it and demanding it (and saying he gets the boot solely on results not being good enough for promotion).
You seem to be judging on results over one season and nothing else matters. One strike and you're out. That seems harsh to me. And potentially not in the club's best long term interests. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:59 - Aug 5 with 2023 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:50 - Aug 5 by itfcjoe |
We haven't got time to progress out of this division - the SCMP rules make it exceedingly difficult.
If we don't go up this year we'll need to raise another couple of million in fees to ensure next years wage bill remains within the limits.
I can guarantee that everyone in the club from GameChanger, to Ashton, to Cook know that getting up, or coming very close, is the minimum expectation this season and if it doesn't happen Cook will be gone
To try and put some specifics behind it - if we finish 4th and are 3 points of 2nd and lose in the POs then I don't think many will call for his head, if we finish 4th and are 12 points from 2nd and lose then it is a different matter [Post edited 5 Aug 2021 13:54]
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Last season we finished two wins outside the play-offs, two seasons ago, it was 3 wins outside.
If Cook can't get those extra wins to get us into the play-offs with the team we have now - let alone who else might come in before the end of August or January, the owners will have some serious thinking to do..... |  |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:06 - Aug 5 with 2002 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 12:51 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
"And look what that achieved" - administration and the start of a 20 year downward spiral?
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haha, now I know you're trolling! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:06 - Aug 5 with 2001 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:50 - Aug 5 by itfcjoe |
We haven't got time to progress out of this division - the SCMP rules make it exceedingly difficult.
If we don't go up this year we'll need to raise another couple of million in fees to ensure next years wage bill remains within the limits.
I can guarantee that everyone in the club from GameChanger, to Ashton, to Cook know that getting up, or coming very close, is the minimum expectation this season and if it doesn't happen Cook will be gone
To try and put some specifics behind it - if we finish 4th and are 3 points of 2nd and lose in the POs then I don't think many will call for his head, if we finish 4th and are 12 points from 2nd and lose then it is a different matter [Post edited 5 Aug 2021 13:54]
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And finishing outside the top 6 is just absolutely unthinkable.
As I've said on this thread already, I think a lot of this chat will be redundant because we will be in and around it (top 2) all season and ultimately go up or be very, very close to it. Nobody at the club is going to come out and say "we should p!ss it" but behind closed doors they must be very, very confident with the squad we have at our disposal and the deals we still want to do. [Post edited 5 Aug 2021 14:07]
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:08 - Aug 5 with 1993 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:19 - Aug 5 by itfcjoe |
Most clubs at this level have huge changes - Morecambe lost their manager 2 days after the play off final and only had 3 first teamers signed up for this season - one of which Luton bought for £500k, and their captain Lavelle may not play tomorrow because there is transfer bids in for him.
I really don't see us starting poorly, every club has had a big transition and most haven't been able to bring in the quality we have in ours.
We've got a pretty easy start, may be issue we drop a few points in early home games as struggle to break teams down who sit in - but if we lose as many as we win in the first dozen he'll be under big pressure from every angle - including himself.
He knows what the job is. |
12 games with a totally new team and he's under pressure? That would be ridiculous and short-sighted IMO. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:10 - Aug 5 with 1988 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:50 - Aug 5 by itfcjoe |
We haven't got time to progress out of this division - the SCMP rules make it exceedingly difficult.
If we don't go up this year we'll need to raise another couple of million in fees to ensure next years wage bill remains within the limits.
I can guarantee that everyone in the club from GameChanger, to Ashton, to Cook know that getting up, or coming very close, is the minimum expectation this season and if it doesn't happen Cook will be gone
To try and put some specifics behind it - if we finish 4th and are 3 points of 2nd and lose in the POs then I don't think many will call for his head, if we finish 4th and are 12 points from 2nd and lose then it is a different matter [Post edited 5 Aug 2021 13:54]
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Well we're not too far apart in that case. You're giving scenarios where we aren't promoted and Cook still stays. Many aren't. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:12 - Aug 5 with 1980 views | jayessess |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:33 - Aug 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
He doesn't say it was unrealistic for us to be challenging at the top end, he says that on paper he thinks we weren’t really ready to get promoted (which is about survival once we're up there). Totally different things. And he's just one player, where are the quotes from the rest of the squad?
I don't have low standards, I have realism. I want us to build something sustainable, not be one of those clubs that sack the manager at every setback. Success isn't built on short termism.
You are clearly a modern football fan who wants everything now. That's unrealistic IMO. |
"I think we under-achieved in terms of the fans’ eyes, but if you look at the squad on paper we weren’t really ready to get promoted. We did okay, we did alright. That side of it was frustrating as well but I definitely enjoyed my time there."
He says he thinks "we did alright" and that it was only the fans who thought they'd "under-achieved". There were also plenty of other moments where both Lambert and the players declared themselves to be "in a good position in and around the play-offs". I think it's fairly reasonable to infer that expectations were not exactly high.
I think we have very different ideas about realistic. I don't think it's realistic to imagine that most managerial appointments work out well if you just give everyone enough time. That isn't the case. Managerial stability is a product of good results, rather than the other way round. |  |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:18 - Aug 5 with 1968 views | jayessess |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:44 - Aug 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
But you're advocating the sacking of Cook after 1 season of non-promotion!
Yes Burley was in a higher division, but he had players for that division. The bigger picture, regardless of division, is he was given time because we could see progress. That's all I'm asking for here. |
Burley got time because we finished slightly above where the budget said we should do - we had the 6th biggest gates in the division and he finished in the top 6. That's the standard I'll hold Cook to. | |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:24 - Aug 5 with 1960 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:12 - Aug 5 by jayessess |
"I think we under-achieved in terms of the fans’ eyes, but if you look at the squad on paper we weren’t really ready to get promoted. We did okay, we did alright. That side of it was frustrating as well but I definitely enjoyed my time there."
He says he thinks "we did alright" and that it was only the fans who thought they'd "under-achieved". There were also plenty of other moments where both Lambert and the players declared themselves to be "in a good position in and around the play-offs". I think it's fairly reasonable to infer that expectations were not exactly high.
I think we have very different ideas about realistic. I don't think it's realistic to imagine that most managerial appointments work out well if you just give everyone enough time. That isn't the case. Managerial stability is a product of good results, rather than the other way round. |
I'm not advocating "just giving everyone enough time". I've repeatedly stated "if we can see progress."
All teams/managers declare themselves to be in a good position. It's self preservation to be taken with a pinch of salt. There's not one shred of actual evidence that the players thought challenging at the top end was unrealistic. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:27 - Aug 5 with 1951 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 14:18 - Aug 5 by jayessess |
Burley got time because we finished slightly above where the budget said we should do - we had the 6th biggest gates in the division and he finished in the top 6. That's the standard I'll hold Cook to. |
We have different memories of Burley then. I don't remember budget being a factor. I just remember we improved a bit each year. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 15:41 - Aug 5 with 1910 views | Herbivore |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:19 - Aug 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
My mitigation would be if we can see improvement being made.
I personally don't think it should necessarily be all or nothing - promotion or the sack. Simply because it's so much to turn around. I don't think it's necessarily going to be as simple as 'buy better players, easily win the league'. There's a lot going on at the club and I think we'd be hamstringing ourselves by putting that all or nothing pressure on... and then ignoring any progress and doing yet another reset.
I dispute the 18 months because the first 6 were with a totally different team, who hadn't performed for a long time. If you think one season with a totally new team is enough, then I would disagree with that. Rome wasn't built in a day and a successful football club isn't necessarily built in one season. |
How much time is acceptable to write off? If we say the first 6 months doesn't count because it was all the players' fault (allegedly) then do we then write off a whole season because the manager has decided to completely change the squad? What if he then wants to change it all again next summer, or is forced to because we lose some players? Do we write off the season after? We're talking about the third division here, every season spent at this level is a stain on the club. I'm not sure some second half of the season improvement resulting in missing out on promotion would be an acceptable season for us. |  |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 16:47 - Aug 5 with 1831 views | Mach_foreignBlue |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:45 - Aug 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
We could quite easily predict those people just by reading these pages. |
Exactly ! They are going to knock Cook and say that we should have kept Bishop, Dozzell and all their heroes that have ended up at Colchester. |  | | |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 17:03 - Aug 5 with 1800 views | Herbivore |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 16:47 - Aug 5 by Mach_foreignBlue |
Exactly ! They are going to knock Cook and say that we should have kept Bishop, Dozzell and all their heroes that have ended up at Colchester. |
So who are they then? Because so far nobody is saying we need to be top after the first couple of months, people are simply saying that promotion has to be the aim this season and a failure to achieve it would be a significant one. That's how Cook and his bosses see it. | |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 17:30 - Aug 5 with 1762 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 15:41 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
How much time is acceptable to write off? If we say the first 6 months doesn't count because it was all the players' fault (allegedly) then do we then write off a whole season because the manager has decided to completely change the squad? What if he then wants to change it all again next summer, or is forced to because we lose some players? Do we write off the season after? We're talking about the third division here, every season spent at this level is a stain on the club. I'm not sure some second half of the season improvement resulting in missing out on promotion would be an acceptable season for us. |
I think you're exaggerating somewhat.
I'm not even sure it was 6 months was it? Regardless, I certainly don't advocate "writing off" a whole season. As I've said several times, I'd want to see progress. I'd want to see something building.
You're being silly to suggest him "wanting to change it all again next summer." These are his players now so there's no excuse if they don't perform. He had the excuse before that they weren't his. You know full well he won't get a second chance to chuck the whole team out and start again.
I don't like being in this league anymore than you do, but that's where we are and that isn't Paul Cook's fault. A steady decline over many years has led to this and I'm not sure an immediate fix is as certain as some want it to be. I mean it could happen this year. Great. But if we can see great improvements that don't somehow end in promotion, why would you throw away a good manager just because you're miffed about another year in League 1? And who's to say the next guy would be any better anyway? We could end up putting ourselves back by starting again with a new bloke. On what's available to a League 1 club, is there anyone better qualified than Paul Cook that we could get (obvs hard to tell a year in the future but you get my drift)?
I just think wait and see, judge it by what happens, and there's no need to be wedded to this no promotion = the sack mentality. There will surely be nuances to take into account. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 17:36 - Aug 5 with 1752 views | timothyeo |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 13:46 - Aug 4 by Herbivore |
You say patience, I say low expectations. |
The low expectations are what made me start posting on here! I couldn't believe what I was reading.
With the money we've spent, the squad we've got, and the manager (I don't see anything great about him but i'm told from others on here he's one of the divisions best, and i'm happy to give him a chance and go with that) we should be expecting promotion this season via top 2. If it happens via play-offs we wouldn't complain, but expectation should be top two.
We should also be expecting to beat Morecambe. Any less is a failure first game in. | | | |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 17:38 - Aug 5 with 1750 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 17:03 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
So who are they then? Because so far nobody is saying we need to be top after the first couple of months, people are simply saying that promotion has to be the aim this season and a failure to achieve it would be a significant one. That's how Cook and his bosses see it. |
You're tweaking the detail a bit there and building a straw man. People AREN'T simply saying that promotion has to be the aim this season and a failure to achieve it would be a significant one. Because I'd agree with that. What I disagree on is that it should necessarily lead to Cook being fired. That's a very important bit you've left out, that many are advocating (I think including yourself, unless I'm wrong).
Don't try and twist it - if you think no promotion = the sack then say that rather than watering it down to make your point right. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 17:41 - Aug 5 with 1743 views | timothyeo |
| Looks like we will go into Morecambe with what we have now..... on 17:38 - Aug 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You're tweaking the detail a bit there and building a straw man. People AREN'T simply saying that promotion has to be the aim this season and a failure to achieve it would be a significant one. Because I'd agree with that. What I disagree on is that it should necessarily lead to Cook being fired. That's a very important bit you've left out, that many are advocating (I think including yourself, unless I'm wrong).
Don't try and twist it - if you think no promotion = the sack then say that rather than watering it down to make your point right. |
For me, if we're not in touching distance of top 2 when we get towards January we should start looking elsewhere, I imagine the owners will do anyway. | | | |
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