| NHS mandatory vaccines 22:19 - Nov 9 with 4691 views | LeoMuff |
Reports saying 110000 nhs staff are unvaccinated and many would rather leave than be forced to have it, anyone see a u turn on the horizon ?
NHS staffing is already in the direst of dire straits
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 22:20 - Nov 9 with 3028 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Indeed.
The policy has some merit but is only workable if you have plenty of staff to cover for those who for some reason are refusing to get jabbed. Why people in such settings refuse is beyond me but we are not in a position to effectively turn away those staff. |  |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 22:29 - Nov 9 with 2978 views | blueconscience |
Serious Pandemic eh?
I know, let’s sack over 100,000 medical/care staff!!!
What is this world coming to? [Post edited 9 Nov 2021 22:44]
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 22:31 - Nov 9 with 2963 views | Mookamoo |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 22:20 - Nov 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Indeed.
The policy has some merit but is only workable if you have plenty of staff to cover for those who for some reason are refusing to get jabbed. Why people in such settings refuse is beyond me but we are not in a position to effectively turn away those staff. |
My other half is NHS. Seems to be a high number of non-white staff who are historically sceptical of vaccines have refused. One of her closest friends has refused because she is on a zero hours contract and is worried about side effects and having to take time off.
I'm not suggesting they are correct, but they have their reasons. [Post edited 9 Nov 2021 22:33]
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 07:33 - Nov 10 with 2770 views | GlasgowBlue |
I think everybody should take the vaccine. Not just to protect themselves but to protect the wider community.
If your job involves looking after vulnerable people then absolutely a condition if that job is that you are vaccinated.
Can you force somebody to take the vaccination whilst they are already employed? That’s a hard one as it could lead to us losing a large number of frontline NHS workers. Although when they brought this legislation in France there was a massive take up among unvaccinated health workers.
However, it could be part of a contract for any new applicants. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 8:02]
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:00 - Nov 10 with 2731 views | Lightworker |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 07:33 - Nov 10 by GlasgowBlue |
I think everybody should take the vaccine. Not just to protect themselves but to protect the wider community.
If your job involves looking after vulnerable people then absolutely a condition if that job is that you are vaccinated.
Can you force somebody to take the vaccination whilst they are already employed? That’s a hard one as it could lead to us losing a large number of frontline NHS workers. Although when they brought this legislation in France there was a massive take up among unvaccinated health workers.
However, it could be part of a contract for any new applicants. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 8:02]
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"I think everybody should take the vaccine. Not just to protect themselves but to protect the wider community."
The problem is that the vaccines are not really doing as good a job as hoped in preventing transmission and therefore the 'protecting the wider community' element is a popular narrative that is not really backed up by the real world evidence.
Personally I think vaccine mandates are wrong, full stop, but they are especially wrong when the vaccine does not significantly stop the spread of the disease. People should be free to make their own personal medical choices free from conditions or coercion, informed consent is supposed to be the foundation of healthcare in a liberal democracy.
If the unvaccinated NHS staff are such a risk to public health why are the Government happy for them to remain in situ throughout the Winter, before then forcing them out of their jobs in the Spring?
This doesn't sit right with me and is a dangerous precedent to set. |  | | |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:11 - Nov 10 with 2696 views | GlasgowBlue |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:00 - Nov 10 by Lightworker |
"I think everybody should take the vaccine. Not just to protect themselves but to protect the wider community."
The problem is that the vaccines are not really doing as good a job as hoped in preventing transmission and therefore the 'protecting the wider community' element is a popular narrative that is not really backed up by the real world evidence.
Personally I think vaccine mandates are wrong, full stop, but they are especially wrong when the vaccine does not significantly stop the spread of the disease. People should be free to make their own personal medical choices free from conditions or coercion, informed consent is supposed to be the foundation of healthcare in a liberal democracy.
If the unvaccinated NHS staff are such a risk to public health why are the Government happy for them to remain in situ throughout the Winter, before then forcing them out of their jobs in the Spring?
This doesn't sit right with me and is a dangerous precedent to set. |
Of course being vaccinated protects other people. A recent Oxford University study found that transmission is reduced by 65% by those vaccinated with Pfizer and by 36 vaccinated with AZ.
Vaccination also gives you a 65 - 85% chance of not catching Covid which means less infected people to pass on the virus. | |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:18 - Nov 10 with 2668 views | Vic |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:00 - Nov 10 by Lightworker |
"I think everybody should take the vaccine. Not just to protect themselves but to protect the wider community."
The problem is that the vaccines are not really doing as good a job as hoped in preventing transmission and therefore the 'protecting the wider community' element is a popular narrative that is not really backed up by the real world evidence.
Personally I think vaccine mandates are wrong, full stop, but they are especially wrong when the vaccine does not significantly stop the spread of the disease. People should be free to make their own personal medical choices free from conditions or coercion, informed consent is supposed to be the foundation of healthcare in a liberal democracy.
If the unvaccinated NHS staff are such a risk to public health why are the Government happy for them to remain in situ throughout the Winter, before then forcing them out of their jobs in the Spring?
This doesn't sit right with me and is a dangerous precedent to set. |
Lightly, Id be interested to see your workings out for the first sentence of of your answer (some peer reviewed studies, stats, etc?) because those close to me in the medical (dr and a nurse) are saying something different. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 8:19]
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:33 - Nov 10 with 2642 views | Lightworker |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:11 - Nov 10 by GlasgowBlue |
Of course being vaccinated protects other people. A recent Oxford University study found that transmission is reduced by 65% by those vaccinated with Pfizer and by 36 vaccinated with AZ.
Vaccination also gives you a 65 - 85% chance of not catching Covid which means less infected people to pass on the virus. |
PHE figures show that in some age categories there are currently more cases (per 100'00 of the population ) in the vaccinated than there are in the unvaccinated. There are also studies showing that any immunity gained from the vaccines wanes significantly after 3 months. Unless NHS staff are going to receive 4 x boosters per year the 'protective' effect is going to be minimal.
The other problem is that these proposals do not take into account prior infection and the immunity this provides. Studies from more than one country have shown that less than 1% of people with prior infection get re-infected, I suspect a high number of frontline workers will have been exposed to Covid-19 over the last 18 months, if the Government are only interested in public health and 'following the science' then they would surely take this into consideration before threatening NHS workers with the sack and further depleting an already stretched workforce? | | | |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 09:01 - Nov 10 with 2576 views | Mookamoo |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:33 - Nov 10 by Lightworker |
PHE figures show that in some age categories there are currently more cases (per 100'00 of the population ) in the vaccinated than there are in the unvaccinated. There are also studies showing that any immunity gained from the vaccines wanes significantly after 3 months. Unless NHS staff are going to receive 4 x boosters per year the 'protective' effect is going to be minimal.
The other problem is that these proposals do not take into account prior infection and the immunity this provides. Studies from more than one country have shown that less than 1% of people with prior infection get re-infected, I suspect a high number of frontline workers will have been exposed to Covid-19 over the last 18 months, if the Government are only interested in public health and 'following the science' then they would surely take this into consideration before threatening NHS workers with the sack and further depleting an already stretched workforce? |
If we are ever going to have a balanced argument on here you really do have to add qualifying links please. What studies from more than one country? Not having a go, just need to see what others are reading.
A quick Google comes up with this:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00071-6
"The data suggest that repeat infections are rare – they occurred in fewer than 1% of about 6,600 participants who had already been ill with COVID-19. But the researchers also found that people who become reinfected can carry high levels of the virus in their nose and throat, even when they do not show symptoms. Such viral loads have been associated with a high risk of transmitting the virus to others, said Hopkins."
The question is would mandatory vaccinations help prevent this? | | | |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 09:05 - Nov 10 with 2552 views | unbelievablue |
For me, this is on a par with doctors who smoke. Which is to say: f-ing weird.
I can't fathom how someone whose primary occupation is in the health service refuses to get vaccinated. Maybe there are religious reasons in many cases? |  |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 09:41 - Nov 10 with 2491 views | Lightworker |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:18 - Nov 10 by Vic |
Lightly, Id be interested to see your workings out for the first sentence of of your answer (some peer reviewed studies, stats, etc?) because those close to me in the medical (dr and a nurse) are saying something different. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 8:19]
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I thought it was fairly widely accepted that you can still catch and pass on the virus while vaccinated isn't it? The only real point of debate is to what degree.
I think it is important to point out that we are talking about the now prevalent Delta variant which the vaccines are not as effective against in terms of preventing transmission, a lot of the early studies were based on Alpha which they were more effective against..
I have seen studies and data on this but I don't have them to hand, apologies I know this sounds like a cop out but I am at work and really need to get on with some, will try and provide some links if I get time this evening. | | | |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 09:42 - Nov 10 with 2477 views | The_Last_Baron |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 22:20 - Nov 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Indeed.
The policy has some merit but is only workable if you have plenty of staff to cover for those who for some reason are refusing to get jabbed. Why people in such settings refuse is beyond me but we are not in a position to effectively turn away those staff. |
The policy has zero merit. It must be resisted at all costs. |  |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 09:44 - Nov 10 with 2476 views | noggin |
At least the UK has control over it's borders now and can stop all those European nurses from taking British jobs. |  |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 11:34 - Nov 10 with 2404 views | Digger77 |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 22:31 - Nov 9 by Mookamoo |
My other half is NHS. Seems to be a high number of non-white staff who are historically sceptical of vaccines have refused. One of her closest friends has refused because she is on a zero hours contract and is worried about side effects and having to take time off.
I'm not suggesting they are correct, but they have their reasons. [Post edited 9 Nov 2021 22:33]
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A lot of NHS workers are women of child bearing age, and they are concerned about the long-term affects on their fertility, among other things. Just heard a nurse saying this on talkradio. |  | | |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 11:35 - Nov 10 with 2390 views | Swansea_Blue |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 22:20 - Nov 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Indeed.
The policy has some merit but is only workable if you have plenty of staff to cover for those who for some reason are refusing to get jabbed. Why people in such settings refuse is beyond me but we are not in a position to effectively turn away those staff. |
Hard to balance individual rights over whether to be vaccinated versus need for staff isn't it? I understand, but don't agree with, the choice issue around vaccines*, but patient safety should come first. Maybe the option is to have a policy that non-vaccinated staff can't be in contact with the public, or they have to arrive 30 mins early to have an onsite test every morning. I would like to say the NHS should simply insist that anyone without a vaccine isn't able to work for them, but that doesn't solve the staff shortage issue, and is also probably a legal nightmare.
Presumably they could get the acceptance rate up through conversations with those people or groups of people who are refusing. Takes resources though.
*not all of these non-vaccinated people will necessarily have refused of course. Some may wel have geniine reasns for not having it, from medical exemption to simple things like bad timing if they've already had covid and not been able to pick up the jab when originally offered. |  |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 11:48 - Nov 10 with 2351 views | itfc48 |
You can argue for a mandate if the vaccine 100% prevented transmission but not on current stats.
I know side effects are rare but I know NHS workers who have seen people their own age die or become seriously ill from the side effects and that's surely going to cause some distress when making the decision even if the odds are in your favour.
Surely it's better for someone to receive care from an unvaccinated medic rather than no care at all which is where we are heading with the projected numbers of staff due to be lost in apparently. They're certainly going to be safer than a bumbling blonde idiot prancing around the corridors without a mask.
Even if they are miraculously replaced with graduates you'd be losing a hell of a lot of experience. | | | |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 11:57 - Nov 10 with 2329 views | StokieBlue |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:00 - Nov 10 by Lightworker |
"I think everybody should take the vaccine. Not just to protect themselves but to protect the wider community."
The problem is that the vaccines are not really doing as good a job as hoped in preventing transmission and therefore the 'protecting the wider community' element is a popular narrative that is not really backed up by the real world evidence.
Personally I think vaccine mandates are wrong, full stop, but they are especially wrong when the vaccine does not significantly stop the spread of the disease. People should be free to make their own personal medical choices free from conditions or coercion, informed consent is supposed to be the foundation of healthcare in a liberal democracy.
If the unvaccinated NHS staff are such a risk to public health why are the Government happy for them to remain in situ throughout the Winter, before then forcing them out of their jobs in the Spring?
This doesn't sit right with me and is a dangerous precedent to set. |
Whilst you've made it clear that you don't want to hear from me on covid related issues I still feel I should add context and evidence to things which you post which I feel are incorrect.
"The problem is that the vaccines are not really doing as good a job as hoped in preventing transmission and therefore the 'protecting the wider community' element is a popular narrative that is not really backed up by the real world evidence."
This seems to be incorrect given the studies published in the last few days.
There has just been a study based on a large dataset from Israel (1.2m people) published in the Lancet which shows the 3rd booster dose drastically decreases the risk of infection and hospitalisation. A decrease in infection risk is obviously a decrease in the chance of passing it on.
Lancet Study:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02249-2/fullt
Medical blog interpreting the results:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/third-dose-prevents-infection/
Studies are showing that protection seems to start waning at 3 months after the second dose hence from that point people are more likely to get infected and pass it on. Boosters seem to do an excellent job of stopping that.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 11:59 - Nov 10 with 2322 views | StokieBlue |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 11:34 - Nov 10 by Digger77 |
A lot of NHS workers are women of child bearing age, and they are concerned about the long-term affects on their fertility, among other things. Just heard a nurse saying this on talkradio. |
There is no evidence at all that the vaccines affect fertility.
It's another trope you've recycled from social media which began right at the start of the pandemic from the anti-vax group. If you want to say it then please post s a study showing this is the case.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 12:01 - Nov 10 with 2311 views | StokieBlue |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 08:33 - Nov 10 by Lightworker |
PHE figures show that in some age categories there are currently more cases (per 100'00 of the population ) in the vaccinated than there are in the unvaccinated. There are also studies showing that any immunity gained from the vaccines wanes significantly after 3 months. Unless NHS staff are going to receive 4 x boosters per year the 'protective' effect is going to be minimal.
The other problem is that these proposals do not take into account prior infection and the immunity this provides. Studies from more than one country have shown that less than 1% of people with prior infection get re-infected, I suspect a high number of frontline workers will have been exposed to Covid-19 over the last 18 months, if the Government are only interested in public health and 'following the science' then they would surely take this into consideration before threatening NHS workers with the sack and further depleting an already stretched workforce? |
" Studies from more than one country have shown that less than 1% of people with prior infection get re-infected"
When time allows can you please post these multiple studies?
The evidence I've seen indicates that naturally provided immunity is no better than vaccine provided immunity and in many cases it's worse because it's less consistent.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:19 - Nov 10 with 2204 views | Crawfordsboot |
Many of these postings appear to be largely opinions that are either personal opinion or based on something that individuals have read or been told.
That is not greatly different to the basis for the arguments put forward by anti Vaxers.
There is now a huge pool of people who have received the vaccines and to the best of my knowledge there are no statistically significant negative consequences arising therefrom.
For my part I am happy to accept the recommendation of the expert bodies. These are after all the same people who have effectively eradicated the horrors of smallpox and polio. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 13:20]
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:28 - Nov 10 with 2162 views | Digger77 |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 11:59 - Nov 10 by StokieBlue |
There is no evidence at all that the vaccines affect fertility.
It's another trope you've recycled from social media which began right at the start of the pandemic from the anti-vax group. If you want to say it then please post s a study showing this is the case.
SB |
I don't work for the NHS. This is literally what a nurse said on the radio this morning.
You should refocus your campaign to NHS workers. Not sure you're reaching many nurses here on a football forum!
If you can show evidence of no long-term affects on their fertility, that would be helpful? Please show the data. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 13:44]
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:32 - Nov 10 with 2127 views | Pinewoodblue |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:19 - Nov 10 by Crawfordsboot |
Many of these postings appear to be largely opinions that are either personal opinion or based on something that individuals have read or been told.
That is not greatly different to the basis for the arguments put forward by anti Vaxers.
There is now a huge pool of people who have received the vaccines and to the best of my knowledge there are no statistically significant negative consequences arising therefrom.
For my part I am happy to accept the recommendation of the expert bodies. These are after all the same people who have effectively eradicated the horrors of smallpox and polio. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 13:20]
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There are a statistically small number who are unable to be vaccinated, or had the first jab and due to adverse reaction are not being given the second jab. I know people in the latter category.
Care workers first deadline is this week, with an extension until late December for those who claim to be medically exempt to get their GP to support the in writing.
I am aware of care home workers leaving this week and being welcome, with open arms, by NHS.
Presumably it will also be mandatory for NHS workers to also be vaccinated against influenza. Are there not already a mandatory requirement to have other vaccines. |  |
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| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:42 - Nov 10 with 2078 views | Mookamoo |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:32 - Nov 10 by Pinewoodblue |
There are a statistically small number who are unable to be vaccinated, or had the first jab and due to adverse reaction are not being given the second jab. I know people in the latter category.
Care workers first deadline is this week, with an extension until late December for those who claim to be medically exempt to get their GP to support the in writing.
I am aware of care home workers leaving this week and being welcome, with open arms, by NHS.
Presumably it will also be mandatory for NHS workers to also be vaccinated against influenza. Are there not already a mandatory requirement to have other vaccines. |
Some frontline staff already have to be vaccinated for Hepatitis B. | | | |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:56 - Nov 10 with 1993 views | DanTheMan |
| NHS mandatory vaccines on 13:28 - Nov 10 by Digger77 |
I don't work for the NHS. This is literally what a nurse said on the radio this morning.
You should refocus your campaign to NHS workers. Not sure you're reaching many nurses here on a football forum!
If you can show evidence of no long-term affects on their fertility, that would be helpful? Please show the data. [Post edited 10 Nov 2021 13:44]
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"If you can show evidence of no long-term affects on their fertility, that would be helpful? Please show the data."
That's not how it works. In the same vein, there's no study showing your head doesn't explode 5 years after having the vaccine because:
A) There's no reason to think that could happen.
B) How can there be a long term study when it's not been out a long time?
A more pertinent question would be how would the virus effect a person's fertility? If you could prove there is a way that could happen, that would be interesting. |  |
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