| Is our midfield structure a problem? 08:03 - Dec 1 with 3450 views | Dubtractor |
I've seen a lot on here talk about the defence needing improvements, but I'm not sure that's the real problem.
Looking at Sunday's game as an example, crewe got behind our midfield time after time with almost no effort, creating 3 on 3 or 4 on 4 positions, with lots of space to play in too. Given the amount of situations they faced, I think the defence actually did a decent job on the day.
I appreciate that we were looking to play on the front foot on Sunday, so probably too more risks in committing players forward, but that midfield was a huge problem.
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 12:11 - Dec 1 with 574 views | Keaneish |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:14 - Dec 1 by chrismakin |
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Pretty basic insight that though, anyone could see they had an extra man in midfield as they lined up as a 532. Cook has always said we won’t change to suit other teams, we’ll play our way and more power to it.
Our problem isn’t specifically in the midfield, it’s the full back areas. The message is loud and clear from PC, “trust”. Other than Donacien, no other full back can be trusted at the moment and Donacien isn’t a great fit to suit our style of play to bolster the midfield to split the space. This is where we fall down when needing to match an extra man. When the ball is in the far side the FB needs to fit in a position where he can cover the CB and pack the midfield if needed, we’re not doing that at the moment.
The other issue is that the 10 doesn’t drop back to make a three man mid which would compact it if required. Another thing you can see Cook trying to change is introducing Fraser into midfield as an 8 to join the 10 so there’s better support and we don’t give the ball away in dangerous areas high up the pitch.
All fine tuning which if we get right, we’ll fly. |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 12:15 - Dec 1 with 572 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:16 - Dec 1 by itfcjoe |
There was a really good Twitter thread, which I'll just copy and paste here - have to click on the links for the pictures:
One of the main problems we faced yesterday was the 3v2 situations Crewe were creating against our CB's.
- we were looking to press high & man for man to force them into mistakes; this was successful a couple times
- when they went long though we were exposed:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFX5V7KWQAQpp34?format=png
- Finney was operating higher up to become the spare man when they went long with our CB's occupied by the 2 strikers to create a 3v2
- our CB's were then stepping up to apply pressure on Finney leaving a striker unmarked in behind, final ball & poor timing of run saved us
- one thing we looked to do to stop this was when Evans came on for Chaplin & we went to a 433 shape
- Fraser & Evans would press, leaving Morsy to mark Finney & sweep up the 2nd balls
- we could then start to overload wide areas more on the ball
- on paper this made good sense
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FFX8PCbXsAoFgpr?format=png&name=900x900
However we did appear to have some problems with our personnel & shape after this change was made:
- Morsy isn't the most ideal player to have as a sitter; he's way too aggressive defensively meaning he often leaves his position to apply pressure
- Finney was starting to move wider to get away from Morsy; Clements was occupied by the high positioning of Mandron so couldn't get across to Finney
- when we dropped deeper into a flat midfield 3, Fraser was overpressing leaving Finney free again
- Lowery now starting to get more on the ball & dictate the game so we pushed Fraser slightly higher to press him which didn't work well, shape was v disjointed
- Crewe bring on Knight for Griffiths which makes them a 3142 so we revert back to a 4231, Evans as the 10
Pretty manic final 10-15 minutes with the constant alterations; the midfield 3 didn't seem to know what they were doing/supposed to be doing after the substitutions. Clearly not a shape they've worked on in training, timing of our pressing after the changes was poor. |
"Morsy isn't the most ideal player to have as a sitter; he's way too aggressive defensively meaning he often leaves his position to apply pressure"
Made this comment to a mate. He's seen as a holding midfield player but he isn't really. He's aggressive and wants to win the ball as high as possible.
I keep banging this drum but I'm convinced the full backs are our largest issue. It's the most demanding position in the formation as you have to be able to command your whole side of the pitch, have to be able to defend adequately and have to be able to provide attacking impetus. We haven't found that full back on either side yet.
In his latter two seasons at Wigan he had the likes of Reece James, Nathan Byrne and Antonee Robinson playing those roles with Morsy and Evans/Joe Williams alongside him and they were winning a lot of games at Championship level. So I'm not convinced the problem is the midfield two per se. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 12:39 - Dec 1 with 544 views | franz_tyson |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 12:15 - Dec 1 by tractorboy1978 |
"Morsy isn't the most ideal player to have as a sitter; he's way too aggressive defensively meaning he often leaves his position to apply pressure"
Made this comment to a mate. He's seen as a holding midfield player but he isn't really. He's aggressive and wants to win the ball as high as possible.
I keep banging this drum but I'm convinced the full backs are our largest issue. It's the most demanding position in the formation as you have to be able to command your whole side of the pitch, have to be able to defend adequately and have to be able to provide attacking impetus. We haven't found that full back on either side yet.
In his latter two seasons at Wigan he had the likes of Reece James, Nathan Byrne and Antonee Robinson playing those roles with Morsy and Evans/Joe Williams alongside him and they were winning a lot of games at Championship level. So I'm not convinced the problem is the midfield two per se. |
I think you’re right about the full-backs.
It’s a hell of a task to patrol all the way up the flanks to do both defensive and attacking duties.
KVY seemed perfect for it, but quickly got found out defensively and also not fit enough. Donacien has done well, but not a natural fit. He is still adapting and does seem to be getting in better positions. The left-hand side has been a major problem. I’d say January we need to prioritise that to bring in a suitable LB. Don’t think we can count on Coulsen’s fitness and Penney/Clements are really back-ups.
And has been said before, the 10 has to come deeper so as to receive the ball. Not sure Celina is physically up to that extra workload and prefer Chaplin. | | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 13:02 - Dec 1 with 526 views | itfcjoe |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 12:15 - Dec 1 by tractorboy1978 |
"Morsy isn't the most ideal player to have as a sitter; he's way too aggressive defensively meaning he often leaves his position to apply pressure"
Made this comment to a mate. He's seen as a holding midfield player but he isn't really. He's aggressive and wants to win the ball as high as possible.
I keep banging this drum but I'm convinced the full backs are our largest issue. It's the most demanding position in the formation as you have to be able to command your whole side of the pitch, have to be able to defend adequately and have to be able to provide attacking impetus. We haven't found that full back on either side yet.
In his latter two seasons at Wigan he had the likes of Reece James, Nathan Byrne and Antonee Robinson playing those roles with Morsy and Evans/Joe Williams alongside him and they were winning a lot of games at Championship level. So I'm not convinced the problem is the midfield two per se. |
Lee Evans hasn't been very good full stop really, and Scott Fraser isn't suited to the role.
I'd like to see Idris given a chance alongside Morsy but as mentioned above a young Cole Skuse would be great as need someone who can drop in anywhere and sense danger.
The full backs are a big issue, we need to try and get KVY back in the team - bar Wycombe away, has he started a league game since we stopped playing Harper and Evans in the middle? |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 13:32 - Dec 1 with 491 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 13:02 - Dec 1 by itfcjoe |
Lee Evans hasn't been very good full stop really, and Scott Fraser isn't suited to the role.
I'd like to see Idris given a chance alongside Morsy but as mentioned above a young Cole Skuse would be great as need someone who can drop in anywhere and sense danger.
The full backs are a big issue, we need to try and get KVY back in the team - bar Wycombe away, has he started a league game since we stopped playing Harper and Evans in the middle? |
No, I don't think so. I think our issue at the start of the season is different to the issue we have now.
For all the p1ss taking people do about Cook's comments on Morsy, not having him or someone of that ilk was a fundamental problem early on, particularly as we were playing with full backs that did want to bomb on - whether they were good enough or not.
As you've alluded to, since Morsy has come in, we've then rarely played with those type of full backs, despite our best performance coming at Wycombe with KVY in there. Full backs are now the issue for me and from a couple of whispers I heard, if he's still here in Jan we can expect two more to sign, so he must agree. [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 13:36]
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 13:48 - Dec 1 with 469 views | Hullblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:11 - Dec 1 by JakeITFC |
We did change the midfield shape in the second half on Sunday though, so it was more of a personnel problem than a systemic one.
I'm personally yet to be convinced by Evans, I don't think Fraser suits the role and Morsy is combative rather than defensive. A solid pair of hands in there to mop up (possibly Carroll is that man if fit) would be huge for us. |
Think Carroll could help us defensively just by keeping the ball for us, as well. He looks so comfortable on it and can unlock deep defences too. If we can get him fit (massive if given his record) and sort the full backs out we’ll be a much better team. |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 13:52 - Dec 1 with 465 views | BonneNIL |
For me, the issue with our midfield is we have too many passengers playing there and not enough people trying to make the game for us outside of Aluko and Burns. Fraser was superb elsewhere and hasn't been any good for us, Evans has been like watching ditchwater most of the season, Harper is absolutely atrocious, Edwards is like Harper just with a little more effort but absolutely no end product, Morsy so far has done nothing for me and is a throwback to a Mick type of midfielder just without the personality.
I have asked this before, how are any of our CM's better than Bishop, Downes, and Dozzell because I just cannot see it so far. even on the left side, what are they doing more than what Sears, Huws, and G Edwards were doing? The right side is an improvement with either Burns or Aluko, but this midfield at times is absolutely drab and resembles sideways walking football at times.
Just seems like we have seen a lot of change for change's sake in places and the end result isn't any improvement. Edmondson is a good signing at the back, I would take him over McGuiness last year, Burns is a good signing, Aluko has impressed me and Bonne had a great start but has faded now. Our best player overall has been Donancien by a mile and he's a Hurst hangover. |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 14:01 - Dec 1 with 449 views | franz_tyson |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 13:48 - Dec 1 by Hullblue |
Think Carroll could help us defensively just by keeping the ball for us, as well. He looks so comfortable on it and can unlock deep defences too. If we can get him fit (massive if given his record) and sort the full backs out we’ll be a much better team. |
Does feel we’re groping around trying to find the perfect partner for Morsy. Carroll now being added to the list. I would have thought Carroll is similar to Fraser in that he’s comfortable on the ball and can find a pass, but lacks physicality same as Fraser.
El Miz might be worth giving a go for that extra bite, but think I’d persevere with Fraser. And to rely on Carroll’s fitness is a big gamble. | | | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 14:22 - Dec 1 with 439 views | bournemouthblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:56 - Dec 1 by Garv |
The full backs is the biggest issue hands down for me.
If he's fit Penney absolutely has to play in my book. As long as he's not too gung ho I'd also be more than happy to see KVY. We need to push teams back a bit more, earlier in the season we were having sustained spells of possession in their final third and finding pockets of space, that's dried up because our full backs can't keep the ball for long enough up the pitch. |
Good teams start play through their full backs and good full backs overlap and overwhelm, breaking the lines and causing mayhem
Freeing up space for our talented attacking players to cause mischief
If you have Paul Jewell this side, I suspect we would be more gung-ho
Okay, they would be even worse defensively but they'd be nuts going forward
I see quite a lot in Paul Cook so far that we had with Jewell
Jason De Vos was probably the difference for Jewell, he was so good, he allowed Jewell's teams to get away with it! |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 14:40 - Dec 1 with 419 views | itfcjoe |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 14:01 - Dec 1 by franz_tyson |
Does feel we’re groping around trying to find the perfect partner for Morsy. Carroll now being added to the list. I would have thought Carroll is similar to Fraser in that he’s comfortable on the ball and can find a pass, but lacks physicality same as Fraser.
El Miz might be worth giving a go for that extra bite, but think I’d persevere with Fraser. And to rely on Carroll’s fitness is a big gamble. |
I don't think it's so much about phyicaility in that role, bar being quite mobile, it's more about being able to read the game well and being disciplined first and foremost | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 15:02 - Dec 1 with 392 views | Keaneish |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 14:22 - Dec 1 by bournemouthblue |
Good teams start play through their full backs and good full backs overlap and overwhelm, breaking the lines and causing mayhem
Freeing up space for our talented attacking players to cause mischief
If you have Paul Jewell this side, I suspect we would be more gung-ho
Okay, they would be even worse defensively but they'd be nuts going forward
I see quite a lot in Paul Cook so far that we had with Jewell
Jason De Vos was probably the difference for Jewell, he was so good, he allowed Jewell's teams to get away with it! |
Penney and KVY are definitely our best options despite the lack of consistency.
Surely they've had enough time out now and enough minutes on the training field to eradicate their mistakes and understand where they're going wrong!? We need them for their attacking threat but they need to defend higher up the pitch and be better at it whilst being more Donacien anywhere 30 yards from our goal.
KVY was excellent at Wycombe. I'm hoping a good game form him tonight will earn him a start against Barrow and then Cook really has a tough decision to make. | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 15:02 - Dec 1 with 392 views | Beckets |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 14:22 - Dec 1 by bournemouthblue |
Good teams start play through their full backs and good full backs overlap and overwhelm, breaking the lines and causing mayhem
Freeing up space for our talented attacking players to cause mischief
If you have Paul Jewell this side, I suspect we would be more gung-ho
Okay, they would be even worse defensively but they'd be nuts going forward
I see quite a lot in Paul Cook so far that we had with Jewell
Jason De Vos was probably the difference for Jewell, he was so good, he allowed Jewell's teams to get away with it! |
Except that Jason De Vos had retired before Paul Jewell became manager.... |  | | |
| THIS (n/t) on 15:22 - Dec 1 with 375 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:46 - Dec 1 by Garv |
I can't really believe the reaction to the game. There were genuinely boos at full time.
It looked an end to end game which as you say probably should have ended 5-2. As it was it ended 2-1, we took 3 points and they took none.
See people saying 'I'd take a scruffy 1-0 at the moment' but when it happens it's not good enough. According to Mike Bacon 'you have to beat teams like Crewe more than 2-1' which is of course nonsense. We just came off a disappointing result against Rotherham (which was also overreacted to by the way), we were likely to produce a flawless performance against Crewe while also trying something new putting SF in CM? [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 13:59]
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