| Is our midfield structure a problem? 08:03 - Dec 1 with 3451 views | Dubtractor |
I've seen a lot on here talk about the defence needing improvements, but I'm not sure that's the real problem.
Looking at Sunday's game as an example, crewe got behind our midfield time after time with almost no effort, creating 3 on 3 or 4 on 4 positions, with lots of space to play in too. Given the amount of situations they faced, I think the defence actually did a decent job on the day.
I appreciate that we were looking to play on the front foot on Sunday, so probably too more risks in committing players forward, but that midfield was a huge problem.
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:10 - Dec 1 with 633 views | BseaBlue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:06 - Dec 1 by HighgateBlue |
Downes alongside Morsy would've been great to see. Edmundson alongside Wilson would've surely done a job, too.
Still, that would've robbed Cook of the "whole new squad of players" excuse if things had still gone badly... |
Yeah can't disagree with you regarding Wilson. I really liked him personally. Yes he was limited with his ability on the ball, but defensively, he was the best we had. Perhaps we were worried about his fitness or over estimated how easy it would be to get Bradley in. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:11 - Dec 1 with 628 views | PhilTWTD |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:04 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
I don't think the centre backs were really troubled, despite being stretched. And really Crewe only carved out one real chance from memory after their goal. A better side would have had a field day.
I also agree on the mobility. As I've stated on this thread, our problem is speed in transition, and speed of distribution. Fraser and Morsy are particularly slow. I guess that's why Harper was the original choice. But he is not comfortable in position in front of our D, error waiting to happen.
I guess Fraser may be seen as the option against lesser teams, as you get some of the brilliant forward threaded passes - see Bonne glaring miss at the end.
But Evans is probably going to return at Charlton and his confidence is gone.
Why not El Miz????? he'll hopefully have the chance to shine tonight. I note Charlton won their Pizza cup game! |
Yes, I think a El Miz-Morsy partnership might provide better balance in the system we're playing. As much as he's good on the ball, I don't really see where Fraser can fit into the team. He doesn't offer as much as either Celina or Chaplin as a number 10, and I'm not sure the narrow left-sided role really worked that well either, although more so than his role on Sunday. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:28 - Dec 1 with 595 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:11 - Dec 1 by PhilTWTD |
Yes, I think a El Miz-Morsy partnership might provide better balance in the system we're playing. As much as he's good on the ball, I don't really see where Fraser can fit into the team. He doesn't offer as much as either Celina or Chaplin as a number 10, and I'm not sure the narrow left-sided role really worked that well either, although more so than his role on Sunday. |
I'm still convinced a lot of our issues come from confidence, and from the energy and speed in our game. Scared players make mistakes, scared players don't win the second ball, scared players make less forward passes.
But I think a really valid criticism of Cook is the Fraser situation, this guy has fantastic attributes - can thread as pass, sees other movement, can work in traffic, and he just loves those intricate triangles around the forward edge of the box - which the MK Dons style suited him to a tee. But he isn't a wide attacking midfielder as he doesn't so much beat the man, or hit the by line, he isn't number 10 as he does hit the penalty spot when needed.
In time I can see Edwards, Burns, and Piggot starting. I love Aluko but Burns has pace. Edwards just scares the living daylights out of the opposition, and actually his final ball is improving and his effectiveness see Sunderland. Chaplin and Celina can slug it out for number ten... Chaplin seems better but like Evans and Bonne his confidence isn't right at present.
Then you're back to the deep two.. Morsy is needed, but not sure he's fully in his game.. his positioning at Wycombe was spot on. Wasn't right on Saturday. But again this may be confised messaging on BE MORE POSTIVE, BE MORE POSITIVE... that is maybe more for the guy next to him.... who is?!?!?!
God knows: Fraser? Carrol? Harper? El Miz? Evans? |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:41 - Dec 1 with 576 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:59 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
That diagram is almost perfect, but its worse as on a couple of occasions it seems Clements was also pushed up at one point, or as you say dealing with players.
But as I said earlier the key problem is speed of transition of our shape. Morsy and Fraser need to be moving deeper quickly when we lose ball (as you say when hunting for presses or supporting attack) and Crewe are in transition, it was cheap turnover, slowness and over committing upfield that caused the gap portrayed in the diagram.
It was a mess when Evans came on - and that is Cooks fault front and centre (albeit Evans is WAY out of form).
Its a catch 22 at the moment though, we are demanding more expansive and aggressive forward play. Fraser in the two definitely gave us that, and we want Morsy breaking the lines and winning ball. But they need greater discipline in transition, and MORE PACE.
Harper clearly hasn't worked out in the deep two, but at least he had that athleticism. Morsy and Fraser (and Evans) are perhaps too slow.
But to finish, if Fraser and Morsy are to stay in those roles (doubt it), they need to given time... and shown diagrams like the one you post. Which exactly what Cook will be doing this week. |
I feel a bit for Harper. Played alongside a hardly sparkling Evans early on and when the defence was all over the place. Cook then sees him as a 10 following his impressive display at Lincoln. I’d be interested to see what improvement there is in him next to Morsy. |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:44 - Dec 1 with 574 views | bournemouthblue |
I've only been following us on iFollow so I can't see the off the ball stuff and general shape, I know a guy at the gym was saying whilst Morsy and Evans like to sit deep and slow things down (my instant thought was Leadbitter and Norris, oh dear), he was saying that whilst the 3 other footballers are all good footballers, they don't offer a lot of defensive cover.
He said Rotherham relentlessly closed us down for 65 minutes and we had no answer to it.
We look pretty vulnerable on the counter and that would explain a lot of a lot of the midfield aren't covering runners etc.
I noticed the gap between defence and midfield looking a bit suspect too which won't help our back four.
He also said the system we play really requires attacking full backs, neither of which Donacien and Clements are, certainly at home where you're likely to have most of the ball, I'd be temped to play Penny and KVY to overload and overwhelm opposition.
I'd even favour playing a midfielder who can drop into defence when defending, kind of like a Busquets type of player which might suit someone like Wolfy. I think Lambert briefly tinkered with the overlapping centre back system which Sheffield United were playing under Wilder with mixed results? [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 10:45]
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:46 - Dec 1 with 572 views | Garv |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:50 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
Looking back at extended highlights and thinking back at the those Crewe attacks it was only 4 second half in relation to the point about the midfield issues…. The only clear cut chance after their goal was when Madron shot over.
Don’t get me wrong they were glaring shape issues as I’ve described, but people are overstating the amount. But it needs sorting quickly.
And in that time edwards has a brilliant run and fluffs shot, and Bonne missed two barn doors.
5-2 was the correct score line as some have mentioned. The reaction you’d think it was 2-5. But that’s where people’s heads are at. [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 8:53]
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I can't really believe the reaction to the game. There were genuinely boos at full time.
It looked an end to end game which as you say probably should have ended 5-2. As it was it ended 2-1, we took 3 points and they took none.
See people saying 'I'd take a scruffy 1-0 at the moment' but when it happens it's not good enough. According to Mike Bacon 'you have to beat teams like Crewe more than 2-1' which is of course nonsense. We just came off a disappointing result against Rotherham (which was also overreacted to by the way), we were likely to produce a flawless performance against Crewe while also trying something new putting SF in CM? [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 13:59]
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:47 - Dec 1 with 572 views | PhilTWTD |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:28 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
I'm still convinced a lot of our issues come from confidence, and from the energy and speed in our game. Scared players make mistakes, scared players don't win the second ball, scared players make less forward passes.
But I think a really valid criticism of Cook is the Fraser situation, this guy has fantastic attributes - can thread as pass, sees other movement, can work in traffic, and he just loves those intricate triangles around the forward edge of the box - which the MK Dons style suited him to a tee. But he isn't a wide attacking midfielder as he doesn't so much beat the man, or hit the by line, he isn't number 10 as he does hit the penalty spot when needed.
In time I can see Edwards, Burns, and Piggot starting. I love Aluko but Burns has pace. Edwards just scares the living daylights out of the opposition, and actually his final ball is improving and his effectiveness see Sunderland. Chaplin and Celina can slug it out for number ten... Chaplin seems better but like Evans and Bonne his confidence isn't right at present.
Then you're back to the deep two.. Morsy is needed, but not sure he's fully in his game.. his positioning at Wycombe was spot on. Wasn't right on Saturday. But again this may be confised messaging on BE MORE POSTIVE, BE MORE POSITIVE... that is maybe more for the guy next to him.... who is?!?!?!
God knows: Fraser? Carrol? Harper? El Miz? Evans? |
There's also individual consistency. Not many 7/10 every week type of players in the team at the moment. Too many have a great game - or even great period in a game - but aren't able to maintain it. | | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:53 - Dec 1 with 562 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:11 - Dec 1 by PhilTWTD |
Yes, I think a El Miz-Morsy partnership might provide better balance in the system we're playing. As much as he's good on the ball, I don't really see where Fraser can fit into the team. He doesn't offer as much as either Celina or Chaplin as a number 10, and I'm not sure the narrow left-sided role really worked that well either, although more so than his role on Sunday. |
Which is a bit of shocker from Cook isn't it that we can't find a place for a player who scored 14, had 10 assists and had most key passes in the league last season? |  | | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:56 - Dec 1 with 545 views | Garv |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:44 - Dec 1 by bournemouthblue |
I've only been following us on iFollow so I can't see the off the ball stuff and general shape, I know a guy at the gym was saying whilst Morsy and Evans like to sit deep and slow things down (my instant thought was Leadbitter and Norris, oh dear), he was saying that whilst the 3 other footballers are all good footballers, they don't offer a lot of defensive cover.
He said Rotherham relentlessly closed us down for 65 minutes and we had no answer to it.
We look pretty vulnerable on the counter and that would explain a lot of a lot of the midfield aren't covering runners etc.
I noticed the gap between defence and midfield looking a bit suspect too which won't help our back four.
He also said the system we play really requires attacking full backs, neither of which Donacien and Clements are, certainly at home where you're likely to have most of the ball, I'd be temped to play Penny and KVY to overload and overwhelm opposition.
I'd even favour playing a midfielder who can drop into defence when defending, kind of like a Busquets type of player which might suit someone like Wolfy. I think Lambert briefly tinkered with the overlapping centre back system which Sheffield United were playing under Wilder with mixed results? [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 10:45]
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The full backs is the biggest issue hands down for me.
If he's fit Penney absolutely has to play in my book. As long as he's not too gung ho I'd also be more than happy to see KVY. We need to push teams back a bit more, earlier in the season we were having sustained spells of possession in their final third and finding pockets of space, that's dried up because our full backs can't keep the ball for long enough up the pitch. | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:57 - Dec 1 with 541 views | HighgateBlue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:10 - Dec 1 by BseaBlue |
Yeah can't disagree with you regarding Wilson. I really liked him personally. Yes he was limited with his ability on the ball, but defensively, he was the best we had. Perhaps we were worried about his fitness or over estimated how easy it would be to get Bradley in. |
Yes, I feel Bradley would've been an excellent addition, especially at this level. And in fairness to PC, Edmundson has been exactly the sort of CB that we were crying out for, and at the perfect age. Cloning him has been mentioned, and I'm sure is on the Xmas list of many boys and girls on this forum. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:02 - Dec 1 with 528 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:41 - Dec 1 by WestStanderLaLaLa |
I feel a bit for Harper. Played alongside a hardly sparkling Evans early on and when the defence was all over the place. Cook then sees him as a 10 following his impressive display at Lincoln. I’d be interested to see what improvement there is in him next to Morsy. |
You have a point. Evans been off form, and not the holding midfielder like Morsy we needed to pair alongside a more dynamic player like Harper.
Albeit Harper just looked a little loose in posession in the midfield deep two.
I do think Harper can have a role this season. There are still a lot of games, and players will get injured and go out of form.. see coulson, burns, bonne, burgess.... | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:08 - Dec 1 with 486 views | gordon |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:47 - Dec 1 by homer_123 |
Flynne Downes? |
He'd do it! |  | | |
| Nail on Head on 11:11 - Dec 1 with 477 views | unstableblue |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:47 - Dec 1 by PhilTWTD |
There's also individual consistency. Not many 7/10 every week type of players in the team at the moment. Too many have a great game - or even great period in a game - but aren't able to maintain it. |
Loads of slating of manager, loads of slating of system (which in part I'd support), but the players are getting a very easy ride from the fan base/TWTD board in my mind.
Cook brought them in, Cook said they would be a step up and a different mind set (not sure any team could have a worse mind set than ITFC last season, woeful), Cook sets them up... but in reality the players when they cross the line have been a real mixed bag, and a set of players really looking like they lack confidence and self belief. That's why I still harbour hope that we'll click, if that mind set changes. Confidence = a run, a run = confidence.
They all clicked and turned up at Wycombe and we were unstoppable, all the players with time on pitch 7+
Edmundson, maybe Burns (although he's had a couple of off days), Donacien in part, Bonne for a while (but he's bang out of form now)... walton has wobbled, clements is hanging in there (and well done to him).. toto an enigma... morsy been pretty good.. chaplin and celina have had as many off days as good ones..
Sighs.. HAS TO CHANGE | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:11 - Dec 1 with 477 views | JakeITFC |
We did change the midfield shape in the second half on Sunday though, so it was more of a personnel problem than a systemic one.
I'm personally yet to be convinced by Evans, I don't think Fraser suits the role and Morsy is combative rather than defensive. A solid pair of hands in there to mop up (possibly Carroll is that man if fit) would be huge for us. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:28 - Dec 1 with 450 views | Dubtractor |
Just catching up with this thread during my mid morning 'meeting' and seems the general consensus is that midfield personnel is a bigger issue than the structure as we play it.
Like a few others on here, I really struggle to see where Fraser fits in our team, he's clearly a talented player but just hasn't really worked in several positions we've tried him in. His lack of pace and physicality is a real hindrance. | |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:31 - Dec 1 with 447 views | gordon |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:28 - Dec 1 by Dubtractor |
Just catching up with this thread during my mid morning 'meeting' and seems the general consensus is that midfield personnel is a bigger issue than the structure as we play it.
Like a few others on here, I really struggle to see where Fraser fits in our team, he's clearly a talented player but just hasn't really worked in several positions we've tried him in. His lack of pace and physicality is a real hindrance. |
Yup - if we're going to carry Celina defensively because of what he contributes in an attacking sense (which I think we should), then Fraser ain't really going to be much help! | | | |
| We miss a Skuse of 5 years ago. (n/t) on 11:35 - Dec 1 with 440 views | Bloots |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 10:47 - Dec 1 by PhilTWTD |
There's also individual consistency. Not many 7/10 every week type of players in the team at the moment. Too many have a great game - or even great period in a game - but aren't able to maintain it. |
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| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| We miss a Skuse of 5 years ago. (n/t) on 11:40 - Dec 1 with 436 views | ElderGrizzly |
| We miss a Skuse of 5 years ago. (n/t) on 11:35 - Dec 1 by Bloots |
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Oooo I said this on Twitter a few days ago too when talking about midfield combos. A 29 year old Skuse you put in the team over Morsy imo.
Morsy is aggressive, but positionally naïve from the games i've seen so far. So if we want a true DM alongside a more creative force, that offers balance.
I'm off to get a time machine :) | | | |
| We miss a Skuse of 5 years ago. (n/t) on 11:42 - Dec 1 with 434 views | PhilTWTD |
| We miss a Skuse of 5 years ago. (n/t) on 11:35 - Dec 1 by Bloots |
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We tried to play Morsy like that when PC switched it around in the second half but he's not really disciplined enough for the role. Obviously we really need Jim Magilton and Matt Holland from 1999/00/01 as the middle two. | | | |
| He was outrageously under appreciated.... on 11:45 - Dec 1 with 425 views | Bloots |
| We miss a Skuse of 5 years ago. (n/t) on 11:40 - Dec 1 by ElderGrizzly |
Oooo I said this on Twitter a few days ago too when talking about midfield combos. A 29 year old Skuse you put in the team over Morsy imo.
Morsy is aggressive, but positionally naïve from the games i've seen so far. So if we want a true DM alongside a more creative force, that offers balance.
I'm off to get a time machine :) |
....there was a period a few years back where we simply didn't win unless he was in the team.
It's only now, when we are playing with 2 DMs, that people with even a vague appreciation of football can see how good he was in that role. | |
| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:46 - Dec 1 with 419 views | Wickets |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:47 - Dec 1 by homer_123 |
Flynne Downes? |
What a pity he decided his Town day's were over . |  | | |
| Well yes, sigh. TWTD. (n/t) on 11:46 - Dec 1 with 419 views | Bloots |
| We miss a Skuse of 5 years ago. (n/t) on 11:42 - Dec 1 by PhilTWTD |
We tried to play Morsy like that when PC switched it around in the second half but he's not really disciplined enough for the role. Obviously we really need Jim Magilton and Matt Holland from 1999/00/01 as the middle two. |
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| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:49 - Dec 1 with 417 views | noggin |
Yeah but Toto... |  |
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| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:50 - Dec 1 with 417 views | DavoIPB |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 08:50 - Dec 1 by unstableblue |
Looking back at extended highlights and thinking back at the those Crewe attacks it was only 4 second half in relation to the point about the midfield issues…. The only clear cut chance after their goal was when Madron shot over.
Don’t get me wrong they were glaring shape issues as I’ve described, but people are overstating the amount. But it needs sorting quickly.
And in that time edwards has a brilliant run and fluffs shot, and Bonne missed two barn doors.
5-2 was the correct score line as some have mentioned. The reaction you’d think it was 2-5. But that’s where people’s heads are at. [Post edited 1 Dec 2021 8:53]
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Yep exactly this. The threat Crewe posed was overstated and we really didn't give any clear cut chances away apart from their goal and maybe one where donacien put in a good block. We created the best chances by a mile. Crewe actually have two very creative midfield players who rather embarrassingly for Morsy and Evans ran the midfield in the second half.
Fraser was outstanding and so was Chaplin in the first half. The amount of times he recovered the ball from Crewe! Fraser picked some really good passes. Unfortunately we lost our attacking ability down the right early in the first half, Aluko ran out of steam and Donacien took a knock. |  | | |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 11:54 - Dec 1 with 411 views | DavoIPB |
| Is our midfield structure a problem? on 09:20 - Dec 1 by chrismakin |
yeah there's lots missing from the extended highlights. |
Not really I've seen the whole game twice (don't ask why). The extended highlights made it look like Crewe were dominant in the first half. Not true Ipswich did actually run the game first half and played well. | | | |
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