| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:18 - Dec 24 with 1226 views | fab_lover |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:14 - Dec 24 by Vic |
Tell me a publication that isn’t biased! Have you truthfully examined both sides of the debate in order to come to your conclusion? Personally I’m constantly amazed at the number of people who have never read a pro Christian book and yet have determined the Christian faith is a load or rubbish! |
OK, I'll bite.
I have read quite a bit of the Bible. Here's what they said happened when Jesus died:
“from noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over the whole land” (Matt. 27:45)
“The earth quaked, and the rocks were split” (Matt. 27:51)
“The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (Matt. 27:52)
Now, given this happened at a time when Jerusalem was a Roman province, and contemporary historians *did* exist, isn't it somewhat strange that a 3 hour eclipse, an earthquake and the dead coming back to life wasn't worth so much as a mention ? |  | |  |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:18 - Dec 24 with 1226 views | jeera |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:11 - Dec 24 by ZXBlue |
Not contemporaneous.
Even if it were (which it isnt): 1 passage widely accepted to be interpolated. The other vague as hell. |
This isn't really the appropriate time of the year to be demeaning people's actual beliefs surely?
It's not for me but I wouldn't be so bold as to take this stance this week of all times.
We do have Christians on the forum, and readers I'm sure too. |  |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:22 - Dec 24 with 1201 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:18 - Dec 24 by jeera |
This isn't really the appropriate time of the year to be demeaning people's actual beliefs surely?
It's not for me but I wouldn't be so bold as to take this stance this week of all times.
We do have Christians on the forum, and readers I'm sure too. |
This week is as good a time as any, Jeera. Quite happy to defend the clear evidence for the existence of Jesus. I can understand why many do not accept that he was God etc, but to claim he didn't exist astounds me.
"These passages, along with other non-biblical, non-Christian references to Jesus in secular first-century sources–among them Tacitus (Annals 15:44), Suetonius (Claudius 25), and Pliny the Younger (Letter to Trajan)–prove conclusively that any denial of Jesus’ historicity is maundering sensationalism by the uninformed and/or the dishonest." |  |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:25 - Dec 24 with 1189 views | jeera |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:22 - Dec 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This week is as good a time as any, Jeera. Quite happy to defend the clear evidence for the existence of Jesus. I can understand why many do not accept that he was God etc, but to claim he didn't exist astounds me.
"These passages, along with other non-biblical, non-Christian references to Jesus in secular first-century sources–among them Tacitus (Annals 15:44), Suetonius (Claudius 25), and Pliny the Younger (Letter to Trajan)–prove conclusively that any denial of Jesus’ historicity is maundering sensationalism by the uninformed and/or the dishonest." |
Fair enough mate.
I shall keep my nose out!
My sore nose which I haven't stopped blowing all week. | |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:25 - Dec 24 with 1189 views | XYZ |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 13:51 - Dec 24 by Darth_Koont |
Jesus was a socialist.
And these two would be among the first in line to denounce him. 😀 |
Santa wears red and has a beard like Corbyn  |  | | |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:26 - Dec 24 with 1185 views | Guthrum |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:05 - Dec 24 by ZXBlue |
"the gospel coalition"? Somewhat biased.
There is no contemporaneous evidence for jesus at all, save for the bible. |
The bible is at least as reliable a source as many in the ancient world. Including recounting of supernatural events.
It was also set down relatively close to the time. The account of Alexander the Great's life from which gain the majority of our knowlege was written by Arrian, a Roman, over three centuries later. All earlier direct sources are lost. |  |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:26 - Dec 24 with 1185 views | ZXBlue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:22 - Dec 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This week is as good a time as any, Jeera. Quite happy to defend the clear evidence for the existence of Jesus. I can understand why many do not accept that he was God etc, but to claim he didn't exist astounds me.
"These passages, along with other non-biblical, non-Christian references to Jesus in secular first-century sources–among them Tacitus (Annals 15:44), Suetonius (Claudius 25), and Pliny the Younger (Letter to Trajan)–prove conclusively that any denial of Jesus’ historicity is maundering sensationalism by the uninformed and/or the dishonest." |
There is no clear evidence. That is just inaccurate.
We simply don't know with any certainty either way. Comments decades or even a century later, once a relgion had formed and people had formed certain beliefs, really arent evidence.
Your quote is from an entirely biased source! | | | |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:27 - Dec 24 with 1184 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:18 - Dec 24 by fab_lover |
OK, I'll bite.
I have read quite a bit of the Bible. Here's what they said happened when Jesus died:
“from noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over the whole land” (Matt. 27:45)
“The earth quaked, and the rocks were split” (Matt. 27:51)
“The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (Matt. 27:52)
Now, given this happened at a time when Jerusalem was a Roman province, and contemporary historians *did* exist, isn't it somewhat strange that a 3 hour eclipse, an earthquake and the dead coming back to life wasn't worth so much as a mention ? |
But it is also confirmed by four other historians outside the Bible: Phlegon, Thallus, Africanus and Tertullian. These historians attempt to interpret the darkness as a direct effect of a solar eclipse which we know is scientifically not possible - but they wouldn't have known that in their time.
https://www.christianevidence.net/2017/12/historical-evidence-darkness-earthquak | |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:27 - Dec 24 with 1179 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:25 - Dec 24 by jeera |
Fair enough mate.
I shall keep my nose out!
My sore nose which I haven't stopped blowing all week. |
No problem, Jeera. Hope it is better soon and you have a great Christmas. | |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:28 - Dec 24 with 1177 views | ZXBlue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:26 - Dec 24 by Guthrum |
The bible is at least as reliable a source as many in the ancient world. Including recounting of supernatural events.
It was also set down relatively close to the time. The account of Alexander the Great's life from which gain the majority of our knowlege was written by Arrian, a Roman, over three centuries later. All earlier direct sources are lost. |
"including recounting supernatural events"?
Doesn;t that reveal the flaw in your argument!?
Its not even internally consistent, but was written in furtherance of a religion. To say you can therefore rely on it is not realistic. | | | |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:29 - Dec 24 with 1165 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:26 - Dec 24 by ZXBlue |
There is no clear evidence. That is just inaccurate.
We simply don't know with any certainty either way. Comments decades or even a century later, once a relgion had formed and people had formed certain beliefs, really arent evidence.
Your quote is from an entirely biased source! |
Tacitus (Annals 15:44), Suetonius (Claudius 25), and Pliny the Younger (Letter to Trajan)
They are not biased.
Of course, I have found the references in a Christian publication and I am not a historian who can easily access the originals. Please find some evidence that the originals do not exist, though.
Your contention that Jesus did not exist (or even that there is insufficient evidence that he did) is clearly rubbish. | |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:30 - Dec 24 with 1164 views | ZXBlue |
You really ought to consider the reliability and biases of your sources. | | | |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:33 - Dec 24 with 1158 views | Darth_Koont |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:25 - Dec 24 by XYZ |
Santa wears red and has a beard like Corbyn |
Corbyn is Jesus AND Santa.
Betrayed by his erstwhile colleagues and Coca-Cola commercialism. 😂 |  |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:33 - Dec 24 with 1152 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:30 - Dec 24 by ZXBlue |
You really ought to consider the reliability and biases of your sources. |
As should you.
You have not yet addressed any of the unbiased Roman historians aside from Josephus who was not contemporary as he was born 4 years after Jesus' death. | |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:35 - Dec 24 with 1137 views | ZXBlue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:29 - Dec 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Tacitus (Annals 15:44), Suetonius (Claudius 25), and Pliny the Younger (Letter to Trajan)
They are not biased.
Of course, I have found the references in a Christian publication and I am not a historian who can easily access the originals. Please find some evidence that the originals do not exist, though.
Your contention that Jesus did not exist (or even that there is insufficient evidence that he did) is clearly rubbish. |
Not contemporaneous. He wrote about 70 years later. How much would you trust someone who wrote something, without quoting any sources, about a happening 70 years ago he did not witness?
My contention is not rubbish at all. The evidence is really thin. Much thinner than certain "ministries" would try to suggest.
Nothing at all within 30/40 years of the events in question.
Doesn't mean no jesus existed. Though thats not impossible. Could be an amalgamation of different preacher type figures, could even be something that grew through visions or whatever. But there is not enough to say with any great certainty that jesus definitely existed. Far from it.
For what its worth, I'd say on balance it seems more likely than not that he did. But I don't think you can rationally get to high percentages of confidence on the scant evidence that exists. | | | |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:37 - Dec 24 with 1127 views | Dubtractor |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:07 - Dec 24 by fab_lover |
Name the band from the lyrics:
"If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today / he'd be gunned down cold by the CIA"
and
"Jesus was a black man / No, Jesus was Batman" |
Black Grape innit. |  |
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| Including JC himself. (n/t) on 14:45 - Dec 24 with 1103 views | Bloots |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 13:58 - Dec 24 by baxterbasics |
Not sure the relevance of ethnic diversity here - there are a quite a few brown Christians, y'know. |
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| "He's been a really positive influence on my life, I think he's a great man" - TWTD User (May 2025) |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:59 - Dec 24 with 1085 views | Guthrum |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:28 - Dec 24 by ZXBlue |
"including recounting supernatural events"?
Doesn;t that reveal the flaw in your argument!?
Its not even internally consistent, but was written in furtherance of a religion. To say you can therefore rely on it is not realistic. |
Contemporaneous works mentioning Caesar also refer to supernatural events. Most of them were written significantly later, too. His own "Gallic Wars" is wild propaganda.
In the ancient world, literary forgeries under the names of famous authors were considered complimentary, not plagiarism.
Are they all utterly unreliable as a result? My argument is that ancient sources are no less reliable, just working within a different world view.
Are all accounts of supernatural events inaccurate anyway? That is quite another debate, which depends upon how sceptical/materialist you are. | |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 15:02 - Dec 24 with 1082 views | Guthrum |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:08 - Dec 24 by ZXBlue |
Not at all. Give me a piece of contemporaneous evidence for jesus that is not part of a religious text written by anonymous non eye witnesses. |
That's like asking for journalism on current affairs that is without political bias. | |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 15:28 - Dec 24 with 1060 views | fab_lover |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:37 - Dec 24 by Dubtractor |
Black Grape innit. |
Indeed. Showing my age with both of those quotes... | | | |
| Including JC himself. (n/t) on 15:36 - Dec 24 with 1061 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Including JC himself. (n/t) on 14:45 - Dec 24 by Bloots |
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Yes, Jesus existed but I doubt he was the son of God.
He was probably the sort of bloke you see in Whetherspoons on a Monday morning
..........and yes, most definitely heavily tanned. |  |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 15:48 - Dec 24 with 1034 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 14:18 - Dec 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
So you can't trust anything that anyone currently living says about things that happened just before they were born - even if they are the most highly qualified historian?
Please present the same level of evidence for Julius Caesar from his contemporaries.
There are very few people who genuinely believe that Jesus never existed.
To quote from the article on Josephus that you have not read: "These passages, along with other non-biblical, non-Christian references to Jesus in secular first-century sources–among them Tacitus (Annals 15:44), Suetonius (Claudius 25), and Pliny the Younger (Letter to Trajan)–prove conclusively that any denial of Jesus’ historicity is maundering sensationalism by the uninformed and/or the dishonest." [Post edited 24 Dec 2021 14:20]
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I don't trust him because he said "for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life". |  |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 16:00 - Dec 24 with 1017 views | ZXBlue |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 15:02 - Dec 24 by Guthrum |
That's like asking for journalism on current affairs that is without political bias. |
No. Its like asking for proper evidence with some sort of provenance. | | | |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 16:17 - Dec 24 with 999 views | monytowbray |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 13:50 - Dec 24 by BlueBadger |
Hmmmm, racist, corrupt and incompetent vs a bit dull but appears competent and committed to not actually promoting bigots and incompetents?
It's a toughie! |
We had an actual alternative option but for some reason the centre right who think they are left didn’t actually want left wing politicians. |  |
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| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 16:24 - Dec 24 with 971 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Johnson doing it for the Christians.... on 16:17 - Dec 24 by monytowbray |
We had an actual alternative option but for some reason the centre right who think they are left didn’t actually want left wing politicians. |
A choice of two wealthy populist bigots. Neither of the above please ! | | | |
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