| The Tories and that investigation 20:42 - Jan 22 with 12632 views | Mullet |
What did come of it in the end? |  |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 16:51 - Jan 24 with 885 views | Mullet |
| The Tories and that investigation on 16:44 - Jan 24 by monytowbray |
You live in a fantasy.
It's taken historic political scandals to get Starmer barely moving the needle in polls.
Brexit won that election. [Post edited 24 Jan 2022 16:46]
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No. It’s taken the natural conclusion of events. Alongside a leader who understands when to speak snd when to allow an idiot to fill the silence.
Once again your inability to credit people and actions that don’t fit this St Jez narrative is why you seem to always start from a position of bad faith in this thread.
You’re also neglect to acknowledge the huge sway of power your evangelical vision allowed the Tories and the time it would take to reverse it. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 16:52 - Jan 24 with 879 views | Mullet |
| The Tories and that investigation on 16:47 - Jan 24 by monytowbray |
I hope Carole Cadwalladr f**ks him publicly with a strap on made of broken glass.
These are the people we should be rallying against, yet the Labour right jumped into bed with him to get shot of Corbyn. |
Who are the Labour right and how big of a sway did they have that Jeremy couldn’t overcome them with his leadership? | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 17:01 - Jan 24 with 836 views | XYZ |
| The Tories and that investigation on 16:51 - Jan 24 by Mullet |
No. It’s taken the natural conclusion of events. Alongside a leader who understands when to speak snd when to allow an idiot to fill the silence.
Once again your inability to credit people and actions that don’t fit this St Jez narrative is why you seem to always start from a position of bad faith in this thread.
You’re also neglect to acknowledge the huge sway of power your evangelical vision allowed the Tories and the time it would take to reverse it. |
I'd tend to agree with this take. My personal politics are probably as far left as any on here and I'm grateful to Koonters and other who are prepared to spend the time expressing those views.
However, the UK's electoral system and the suggestability of the electorate (to me) demand a pragmatism in judging Labour's leaders.
If you want the least harm done by the UK state to the largest possible number of people in the UK as soon as possible, then it's whatever needs to be done to get these corrupt crooks out of government asap.
Then, let's shift the Overton window, replace FPTP, and create a political discourse and sytem fit for the challenges of the 21st century.
Freedom for Tooting! |  | | |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:01 - Jan 24 with 831 views | monytowbray |
| The Tories and that investigation on 16:51 - Jan 24 by Mullet |
No. It’s taken the natural conclusion of events. Alongside a leader who understands when to speak snd when to allow an idiot to fill the silence.
Once again your inability to credit people and actions that don’t fit this St Jez narrative is why you seem to always start from a position of bad faith in this thread.
You’re also neglect to acknowledge the huge sway of power your evangelical vision allowed the Tories and the time it would take to reverse it. |
i am literally a swing voter who'd never vote for Labour prior to Corbyn. I am of no believe he is a Saint, nor is he actually left wing enough for me personally. He just represented the first time we've actually had someone with ethics stand up to the establishment and represent actual change. That's my stance and always was.
He nearly beat May in 2017 with the whole press and half the party actively sabotaging things.
You ignore that reality and cling to the 2 year later election when against a populist liar, one who still has Labour by the balls on ratios of what they can do vs how the polls change, whilst now ironically crying it's the left's fault for not doing what YOU want them to now you have your nice dry man in a suit and nice haircut who stands for... what does he stand for? Can anyone actually say?
If your theory was correct, this wouldn't be the case. You are reaping what you sowed deciding to enable such a high level of nonsense in the press to smear and lie a political candidate. Now it's here to stay and that's what we're all up against.
When we have no food, no water and the planet is on fire please do remind me to thank you for continuing such a path under neoliberalism. |  |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 17:05 - Jan 24 with 828 views | monytowbray |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:01 - Jan 24 by XYZ |
I'd tend to agree with this take. My personal politics are probably as far left as any on here and I'm grateful to Koonters and other who are prepared to spend the time expressing those views.
However, the UK's electoral system and the suggestability of the electorate (to me) demand a pragmatism in judging Labour's leaders.
If you want the least harm done by the UK state to the largest possible number of people in the UK as soon as possible, then it's whatever needs to be done to get these corrupt crooks out of government asap.
Then, let's shift the Overton window, replace FPTP, and create a political discourse and sytem fit for the challenges of the 21st century.
Freedom for Tooting! |
FPTP being gone would go a long way, yet the gammons voted against that before because The Sun told them not to, then cried when they realised UKIP could have had seats if FPTP went. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 17:07 - Jan 24 with 826 views | HARRY10 |
While many would expect big business to use 'dodgy' methods to protect its interests the real sicker is the sheer stupidity of the 'master knows best' mentality of confused workers.
It highlights the activities of the pro tobacco, using the stupidity of workers to demand 'government' get off it's back over banning smoking. Do these cretins really think it is in the interests of their family members, teenage children to become smokers.
Are the tobacco companies genuinely interested in their supposed 'freedoms', or the interests of their shareholders. A clue. One group pays hefty bonuses to it's executives.
And so it goes. Voters in the UK imagining that doctors, dentists, teachers and social workers are the establishment whereas wealthy ex public schoolboys such as Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg are not. In fact, they are 'just like me', they share the same interests as the average council house dweller.
How many of the latter, now facing rising tax bills, energy bills and interest rates voted for these supposed 'honest sons of toil'.
It is not necessarily those businesses that are the enemy, but the sheer stupidity of those around you. | | | |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:08 - Jan 24 with 822 views | monytowbray |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:07 - Jan 24 by HARRY10 |
While many would expect big business to use 'dodgy' methods to protect its interests the real sicker is the sheer stupidity of the 'master knows best' mentality of confused workers.
It highlights the activities of the pro tobacco, using the stupidity of workers to demand 'government' get off it's back over banning smoking. Do these cretins really think it is in the interests of their family members, teenage children to become smokers.
Are the tobacco companies genuinely interested in their supposed 'freedoms', or the interests of their shareholders. A clue. One group pays hefty bonuses to it's executives.
And so it goes. Voters in the UK imagining that doctors, dentists, teachers and social workers are the establishment whereas wealthy ex public schoolboys such as Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg are not. In fact, they are 'just like me', they share the same interests as the average council house dweller.
How many of the latter, now facing rising tax bills, energy bills and interest rates voted for these supposed 'honest sons of toil'.
It is not necessarily those businesses that are the enemy, but the sheer stupidity of those around you. |
BUT CORBYN. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 17:12 - Jan 24 with 815 views | witchdoctor |
| The Tories and that investigation on 14:57 - Jan 24 by monytowbray |
Abuse Reported.
Snowflakes. |
not me btw…not my style to go running to admin… |  | | |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:14 - Jan 24 with 809 views | Mullet |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:01 - Jan 24 by monytowbray |
i am literally a swing voter who'd never vote for Labour prior to Corbyn. I am of no believe he is a Saint, nor is he actually left wing enough for me personally. He just represented the first time we've actually had someone with ethics stand up to the establishment and represent actual change. That's my stance and always was.
He nearly beat May in 2017 with the whole press and half the party actively sabotaging things.
You ignore that reality and cling to the 2 year later election when against a populist liar, one who still has Labour by the balls on ratios of what they can do vs how the polls change, whilst now ironically crying it's the left's fault for not doing what YOU want them to now you have your nice dry man in a suit and nice haircut who stands for... what does he stand for? Can anyone actually say?
If your theory was correct, this wouldn't be the case. You are reaping what you sowed deciding to enable such a high level of nonsense in the press to smear and lie a political candidate. Now it's here to stay and that's what we're all up against.
When we have no food, no water and the planet is on fire please do remind me to thank you for continuing such a path under neoliberalism. |
Yet your posting today (presumably since Corbyn) is littered with holier than thou posturing and you look round incredulously wondering why people on the left aren’t energised in the same way……
The nonsense about standing up to the establishment for the first time is exactly why this position isn’t taken seriously too. It’s as tone deaf as a Fabricant interview or coordinated cabinet tweet flagshagging the most convenient cause or anniversary. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 17:14 - Jan 24 with 805 views | monytowbray |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:12 - Jan 24 by witchdoctor |
not me btw…not my style to go running to admin… |
In your defence I didn’t think it was.
Gammon always gets flagged up by one of our resident Gammons. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 17:23 - Jan 24 with 791 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:12 - Jan 24 by witchdoctor |
not me btw…not my style to go running to admin… |
Wasn't me either. There are worse things to be called than Gammon.
I draw the line at Prosciutto or Jamón. That's really below the belt. |  |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 17:51 - Jan 24 with 750 views | wkj |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:23 - Jan 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Wasn't me either. There are worse things to be called than Gammon.
I draw the line at Prosciutto or Jamón. That's really below the belt. |
Those are foreign words, you should be more inclusive |  |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:02 - Jan 24 with 722 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:14 - Jan 24 by Mullet |
Yet your posting today (presumably since Corbyn) is littered with holier than thou posturing and you look round incredulously wondering why people on the left aren’t energised in the same way……
The nonsense about standing up to the establishment for the first time is exactly why this position isn’t taken seriously too. It’s as tone deaf as a Fabricant interview or coordinated cabinet tweet flagshagging the most convenient cause or anniversary. |
Who do you mean “on the left”? I’m centre-left and I don’t see many at all who are left of me. I think half the problem with our politics is too many not understanding what these terms objectively mean. And people then throwing around “hard left” about social democratic policies ...
And Callis is absolutely right about the heavy establishment slant on our politics and public discourse. Corbyn was the first genuine and serious break from that in decades rather than the “anti-establishment” populism of Brexit, Boris and Farage.
It’s also important for the sake of context that even Miliband was perceived as too left-wing and anti-establishment which is just as ridiculous. |  |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:07 - Jan 24 with 703 views | giant_stow |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:02 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
Who do you mean “on the left”? I’m centre-left and I don’t see many at all who are left of me. I think half the problem with our politics is too many not understanding what these terms objectively mean. And people then throwing around “hard left” about social democratic policies ...
And Callis is absolutely right about the heavy establishment slant on our politics and public discourse. Corbyn was the first genuine and serious break from that in decades rather than the “anti-establishment” populism of Brexit, Boris and Farage.
It’s also important for the sake of context that even Miliband was perceived as too left-wing and anti-establishment which is just as ridiculous. |
I think you need to let go of your own definitions of whats left / centre / right. They're clearly useless as a way of you understanding others and just cause you astonishment and upset. |  |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:07 - Jan 24 with 702 views | Mullet |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:02 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
Who do you mean “on the left”? I’m centre-left and I don’t see many at all who are left of me. I think half the problem with our politics is too many not understanding what these terms objectively mean. And people then throwing around “hard left” about social democratic policies ...
And Callis is absolutely right about the heavy establishment slant on our politics and public discourse. Corbyn was the first genuine and serious break from that in decades rather than the “anti-establishment” populism of Brexit, Boris and Farage.
It’s also important for the sake of context that even Miliband was perceived as too left-wing and anti-establishment which is just as ridiculous. |
I mean left in the accepted sense. Including those callis and yourself love to demonise and blame for momentum’s disasters etc. I agree, think you’ve demonstrated plenty of times you don’t understand these terms. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:09 - Jan 24 with 698 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:01 - Jan 24 by XYZ |
I'd tend to agree with this take. My personal politics are probably as far left as any on here and I'm grateful to Koonters and other who are prepared to spend the time expressing those views.
However, the UK's electoral system and the suggestability of the electorate (to me) demand a pragmatism in judging Labour's leaders.
If you want the least harm done by the UK state to the largest possible number of people in the UK as soon as possible, then it's whatever needs to be done to get these corrupt crooks out of government asap.
Then, let's shift the Overton window, replace FPTP, and create a political discourse and sytem fit for the challenges of the 21st century.
Freedom for Tooting! |
It’s a bit chicken and egg isn’t it though? The people who seek to elect themselves on the more managerial and better than the Tories ticket like Blair and Starmer it seems haven’t shifted the Overton Window in power or opposition. It’s kept sliding right and voters with it.
My pragmatism is based on us having to do something different if we want to actually start addressing the underlying issues in the UK. The worst thing is when nobody’s really even talking about them and possible solutions that they’ll never stand a chance of being included in any manifesto. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:14 - Jan 24 with 678 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:07 - Jan 24 by Mullet |
I mean left in the accepted sense. Including those callis and yourself love to demonise and blame for momentum’s disasters etc. I agree, think you’ve demonstrated plenty of times you don’t understand these terms. |
Pfft. What are you talking about ... “Momentum’s disasters”?
This “accepted” reality is the problem. It’s just a story you and too many others tell yourself.
We should be talking about problems facing the UK and solutions. But we’re too busy playing politics. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:19 - Jan 24 with 657 views | Mullet |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:14 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
Pfft. What are you talking about ... “Momentum’s disasters”?
This “accepted” reality is the problem. It’s just a story you and too many others tell yourself.
We should be talking about problems facing the UK and solutions. But we’re too busy playing politics. |
No it’s an accepted definition of a term in politics going back to the French Revolution. The fact you don’t even read, let alone comprehend things is why you get these political takes wrong almost every time.
You’re constantly demonstrating you’re completely out of touch with anything not in a theoretical bubble. It’s presumably why Corbyn chimed with you.? | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:24 - Jan 24 with 638 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:51 - Jan 24 by wkj |
Those are foreign words, you should be more inclusive |
Shank End? | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:46 - Jan 24 with 606 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:19 - Jan 24 by Mullet |
No it’s an accepted definition of a term in politics going back to the French Revolution. The fact you don’t even read, let alone comprehend things is why you get these political takes wrong almost every time.
You’re constantly demonstrating you’re completely out of touch with anything not in a theoretical bubble. It’s presumably why Corbyn chimed with you.? |
I know where it comes from, you numpty.
I also know that the people who call themselves on the left in the UK rarely support even European social democracy.
Your “accepted” sense is just ignorant and damaging. We “accepted” Boris, a decade of Tory austerity, Brexit, a self-interested press, a not-fit-for-purpose democracy and largely ignoring almost any underlying issue in the UK. Bubblicious. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:53 - Jan 24 with 578 views | Mullet |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:46 - Jan 24 by Darth_Koont |
I know where it comes from, you numpty.
I also know that the people who call themselves on the left in the UK rarely support even European social democracy.
Your “accepted” sense is just ignorant and damaging. We “accepted” Boris, a decade of Tory austerity, Brexit, a self-interested press, a not-fit-for-purpose democracy and largely ignoring almost any underlying issue in the UK. Bubblicious. |
You misread my post and got the use of accepted wrong. Just hold your hands up. It’ll do you good to take them off the shovel for at least one post. | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:56 - Jan 24 with 558 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:53 - Jan 24 by Mullet |
You misread my post and got the use of accepted wrong. Just hold your hands up. It’ll do you good to take them off the shovel for at least one post. |
Sorry. I was using the accepted sense of words.
What did you mean to say? | |
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| The Tories and that investigation on 18:56 - Jan 24 with 552 views | boom_boom_boom |
| The Tories and that investigation on 17:01 - Jan 24 by XYZ |
I'd tend to agree with this take. My personal politics are probably as far left as any on here and I'm grateful to Koonters and other who are prepared to spend the time expressing those views.
However, the UK's electoral system and the suggestability of the electorate (to me) demand a pragmatism in judging Labour's leaders.
If you want the least harm done by the UK state to the largest possible number of people in the UK as soon as possible, then it's whatever needs to be done to get these corrupt crooks out of government asap.
Then, let's shift the Overton window, replace FPTP, and create a political discourse and sytem fit for the challenges of the 21st century.
Freedom for Tooting! |
"replace FPTP"
Labour had years to do that under Blair & Brown... | | | |
| The Tories and that investigation on 19:22 - Jan 24 with 502 views | HARRY10 |
| The Tories and that investigation on 18:56 - Jan 24 by boom_boom_boom |
"replace FPTP"
Labour had years to do that under Blair & Brown... |
That is one of the dangerous myths peddled by the not too bright.
Having a system where you remove local accountability, and allow a half dozen grey suits to decide who is in power.
The teal problem is not less democracy, but voter participation. I don't expect voters to be glued to Parliament TC, but maybe to ask themselves why when they elected an habitual liar, he turned out to be a liar.
Where is there any real disquiet about the billions wasted on PPE ? Maybe demanding that the MP swapping sides is made to stand for election.
Nope, instead let's remove local accountability, that will solve everything. | | | |
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