| Kurt Zouma and cats 14:11 - Feb 9 with 10347 views | homer_123 |
I'm posting this more out of interest as much as anything.
What he did was wrong and I've no idea why it was videoed etc. just bizarre.
That being said - I eat meat as do those pillorying him - we rear animals to slaughter, in fact we rear them on such a scale that is has devastating effects on the environment.
I find it interesting that, on the one hand, electrocuting and/or putting a bolt through an animals head and killing it doesn't seem to raise the same concern/outrage as the events of yesterday.
I wonder why that is? |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:43 - Feb 9 with 1350 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:39 - Feb 9 by homer_123 |
I was pondering the question out loud as such.
As I said...clearly Zouma was wrong...no question.
And Guthers details the answer to the question below.
But I would say yes, we are somewhat hypocritical are we not? [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 15:42]
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Maybe but pets are part of the family? You name it, look after it etc.
Maybe for a farmer it would be. Even then I still think its different
I get the point, but I don't (if you see what I mean). I think they are separate things.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2022 15:47]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:44 - Feb 9 with 1344 views | Coastalblue |
I eat meat, not a lot these days but I do. Because I don't eat a lot of meat now when I do I tend to be really fussy where it comes from, and as Guthers said you hope, and it's not always the case, that the meat I'm eating had a decent life and death
I would never harm an animal willingly. I used to absolutely love fishing when I was younger, it was a huge part of my life. I couldn't bring myself to do it now having had that conversatiion with myself.
I was taught how to slaughter a chicken at school as well, true story |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:47 - Feb 9 with 1327 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:43 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
Maybe but pets are part of the family? You name it, look after it etc.
Maybe for a farmer it would be. Even then I still think its different
I get the point, but I don't (if you see what I mean). I think they are separate things.
[Post edited 9 Feb 2022 15:47]
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There are billions of humans out there you wouldn't want to fund unneeded death and suffering upon with one's choices. Animals feel pain and fear no different to humans at a basic fight-or-flight level, and it baffles me to this day that empathy continues to be missing from many. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:48 - Feb 9 with 1324 views | blueasfook |
What a fine, upstanding citizen |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:49 - Feb 9 with 1312 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:47 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
There are billions of humans out there you wouldn't want to fund unneeded death and suffering upon with one's choices. Animals feel pain and fear no different to humans at a basic fight-or-flight level, and it baffles me to this day that empathy continues to be missing from many. |
WHo said anything about Humans? I'm not saying animals don't have feelings?
You aren't explaining why it is different? You're just saying stuff to suit you're views.
A pet is part of the family. Surely that is different from a chicken I have no connection to? [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 15:50]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:49 - Feb 9 with 1320 views | blueasfook |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 14:23 - Feb 9 by GavTWTD |
I had to lock the thread.
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It had become a bit of sh**-show.
Well done Gav. Still busy down there in the TWTD boiler room after all these years! | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:57 - Feb 9 with 1278 views | GavTWTD |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:49 - Feb 9 by blueasfook |
It had become a bit of sh**-show.
Well done Gav. Still busy down there in the TWTD boiler room after all these years! |
I come up for air when Phil is on the road. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:00 - Feb 9 with 1268 views | blueasfook |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:57 - Feb 9 by GavTWTD |
I come up for air when Phil is on the road. |
you know the police are quite hot on modern slavery now.
Can ring Crimestoppers anonymously on your behalf if you like?
Does he still make you sleep in the corner on old cardboard boxes? | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:03 - Feb 9 with 1248 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:49 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
WHo said anything about Humans? I'm not saying animals don't have feelings?
You aren't explaining why it is different? You're just saying stuff to suit you're views.
A pet is part of the family. Surely that is different from a chicken I have no connection to? [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 15:50]
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It's not different, that's the point I'm making.
If you can feel empathy for a human, you should be able to feel empathy for an animal. If you feel empathy for a cat, you should certainly be able to apply that empathy to a cow or a pig.
And if a cat you own if different to a chicken you don't, does that apply to humans? I could say I don't know you, I'd still rather not pay for or partake in anything that results in your suffering and/or death.
This is basic 2+2=4 stuff. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 16:06]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:21 - Feb 9 with 1202 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:03 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
It's not different, that's the point I'm making.
If you can feel empathy for a human, you should be able to feel empathy for an animal. If you feel empathy for a cat, you should certainly be able to apply that empathy to a cow or a pig.
And if a cat you own if different to a chicken you don't, does that apply to humans? I could say I don't know you, I'd still rather not pay for or partake in anything that results in your suffering and/or death.
This is basic 2+2=4 stuff. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 16:06]
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Firstly it's not basic otherwise everyone would know it.
Again you don't answer the question. An animal which you see every day and name, and feed, and play with etc is surely different to an animal I have no connection with?
So you can't be outraged that's someone has drinkdrived, if you've had a drink in your life? That would be hypocritical no?
I think we will have to leave it here because as the other thread got, you're just going around in circles and not really answering the question. | | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:21 - Feb 9 with 1191 views | giant_stow |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:03 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
It's not different, that's the point I'm making.
If you can feel empathy for a human, you should be able to feel empathy for an animal. If you feel empathy for a cat, you should certainly be able to apply that empathy to a cow or a pig.
And if a cat you own if different to a chicken you don't, does that apply to humans? I could say I don't know you, I'd still rather not pay for or partake in anything that results in your suffering and/or death.
This is basic 2+2=4 stuff. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 16:06]
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It is indeed, but you're not quite getting there yet. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:24 - Feb 9 with 1165 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:21 - Feb 9 by giant_stow |
It is indeed, but you're not quite getting there yet. |
Tell me how I'm wrong. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:25 - Feb 9 with 1162 views | giant_stow |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:24 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
Tell me how I'm wrong. |
We tried that before, but you weren't willing to even consider any opinion other than your own. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:27 - Feb 9 with 1154 views | Coastalblue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:21 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
Firstly it's not basic otherwise everyone would know it.
Again you don't answer the question. An animal which you see every day and name, and feed, and play with etc is surely different to an animal I have no connection with?
So you can't be outraged that's someone has drinkdrived, if you've had a drink in your life? That would be hypocritical no?
I think we will have to leave it here because as the other thread got, you're just going around in circles and not really answering the question. |
I'm not even veggie, let alone vegan, as I said above, but totally agree with Callis here.
Just because it's not fluffy and doesn't have a name doesn't mean it should have any less rights, or that we should think any differently of it.
Eating meat requires us to have a hard conversation with ourselves, or should. Any animal cruelty should be the same, regardless of whtether it's a fluffy pet or not.
I wonder what will be regarded as animal cruelty in 150 years time, I suspect even societies such as our own which likes to think of ourselves as animal lovers will be seen as quite barbaric. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:32 - Feb 9 with 1140 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:21 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
Firstly it's not basic otherwise everyone would know it.
Again you don't answer the question. An animal which you see every day and name, and feed, and play with etc is surely different to an animal I have no connection with?
So you can't be outraged that's someone has drinkdrived, if you've had a drink in your life? That would be hypocritical no?
I think we will have to leave it here because as the other thread got, you're just going around in circles and not really answering the question. |
Of course an animal you have no connection with will have less emotional attachment for you than one that does.
But pigs and chickens have the ability to fear, suffer and feel pain same as a cat or a dog.
There is not difference, other than the one habit and societal norms based in the general consciousness of the public has made you believe so you keep buying/eating meat. You see a chicken as less than a cat, yet they are both living creatures.
Literal example, as it may help - People get outraged by the Dog meat market in the Far East. Why? If you eat cows or pigs, it makes one a hypocrite for sure. That's pretty straight forward.
The drink driving point, if I was saying what I think you think I am saying, would be more along the lines of "So I shouldn't be able to care about animals dying because I eat animals", am I correct? If so, then my response is I'm not saying you aren't allowed to care, more you should question why you care more about one than that other, which is what I've explained in the above paragraph.
I don't know why you feel I'm being shirty. I'm not, this is me presenting a logical and factual response to your question and the OP. I'm genuinely trying to respond to what I think you are asking. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 16:37]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:35 - Feb 9 with 1132 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:25 - Feb 9 by giant_stow |
We tried that before, but you weren't willing to even consider any opinion other than your own. |
Don't project on me because you can't.
If you are failing to grasp someone who is opposed to literal animal suffering and slaughter may be quite set in that view, you don't really understand what you are debating.
Imagine the animal examples in any vegan discussion were humans, then maybe you'll understand. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:36 - Feb 9 with 1133 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:27 - Feb 9 by Coastalblue |
I'm not even veggie, let alone vegan, as I said above, but totally agree with Callis here.
Just because it's not fluffy and doesn't have a name doesn't mean it should have any less rights, or that we should think any differently of it.
Eating meat requires us to have a hard conversation with ourselves, or should. Any animal cruelty should be the same, regardless of whtether it's a fluffy pet or not.
I wonder what will be regarded as animal cruelty in 150 years time, I suspect even societies such as our own which likes to think of ourselves as animal lovers will be seen as quite barbaric. |
It amazes me with posts like this constantly evident, from those who never had an issue with veganism to those who once did and have flipped, so many struggle to get it.
It's so f**king simple. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:41 - Feb 9 with 1120 views | homer_123 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 15:35 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
AM I missing something? Please explain because I am lost. Surely these things are different.
That's like saying "well cats eat animals so they deserve it". Cats kill birds so we can kick the sh!t out of them.
Unfortunately, (for some with this agenda), most cats are pets in our country and many other countries. I've watched programmes where breeders breed too many cats/kittens and where burying them alive to "get rid of them".
Am I a hypocrite for thinking that is wrong because I ate a chicken burger 2 days ago? [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 15:38]
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I guess, in short, as humans we rationalise.
We've rationalised that killing animals for 'food' is acceptable. Killing an animal for sport or big game hunting?
I think this is my point - said cat is a pet - it's called Tiddles and the kids love it - kicking it and/or tormenting it - that isn't right or good.
However, if we are completely honest with ourselves, nor is killing or just hunting and not killing an animal for sport and nor is killing an animal for food but the later we seem to accept because we have rationalised it - some are quite comfortable with hunting and sport killing as well.
My observation here is that the later doesn't raise the same level of concern/ clamour etc. than the cat situation. It's fascinating. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:45 - Feb 9 with 1101 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:41 - Feb 9 by homer_123 |
I guess, in short, as humans we rationalise.
We've rationalised that killing animals for 'food' is acceptable. Killing an animal for sport or big game hunting?
I think this is my point - said cat is a pet - it's called Tiddles and the kids love it - kicking it and/or tormenting it - that isn't right or good.
However, if we are completely honest with ourselves, nor is killing or just hunting and not killing an animal for sport and nor is killing an animal for food but the later we seem to accept because we have rationalised it - some are quite comfortable with hunting and sport killing as well.
My observation here is that the later doesn't raise the same level of concern/ clamour etc. than the cat situation. It's fascinating. |
It is fascinating.
And you are asking the right questions that leads to change on a personal and collective level.
Remember when I said "look in the mirror" in relation to veganism and half the board went up in arms? I do hope more people are starting to maybe retract the grief I got over that.
It's very true, and reflective of my own experiences. Change starts with someone realising something they do isn't good and doing something about it.
Empathy is all about putting yourself in the shoes of others, and staying in those shoes mentally so long it hurts. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:46 - Feb 9 with 1100 views | giant_stow |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:35 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
Don't project on me because you can't.
If you are failing to grasp someone who is opposed to literal animal suffering and slaughter may be quite set in that view, you don't really understand what you are debating.
Imagine the animal examples in any vegan discussion were humans, then maybe you'll understand. |
I'm sorry mr - I shouldn't have questioned you on something like this - it wasn't fair of me. I'll stand down. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:50 - Feb 9 with 1087 views | GavTWTD |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:36 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
It amazes me with posts like this constantly evident, from those who never had an issue with veganism to those who once did and have flipped, so many struggle to get it.
It's so f**king simple. |
To be honest with you, I would love this discussion to continue without you. I would love a reasoned debate with people who are seeing this with "fresh" eyes and having someone shouting at us all the time and saying we're all evil.
I've got cats and dogs and love them to bits. I eat meat regularly and don't think anything of it. I'm not a bad human being. I have a lot of empathy for people and the animals around me. I TOTALLY get that I'm being hypocritical but the market isn't ready for the population to turn vegan/vegetarian.
I did have a McPlant the other day and we need so much more of this. I enjoyed it and I felt that it would be comparable to a quarter pounder. However, I never ever have a quarter pounder so they need a Big Mac equivalent. Vegetarian food needs to be better and more available to the masses without being a struggle to find. We're lazy. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:50 - Feb 9 with 1077 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:46 - Feb 9 by giant_stow |
I'm sorry mr - I shouldn't have questioned you on something like this - it wasn't fair of me. I'll stand down. |
No, come on. You seem vocal enough to insult me and call me ignorant. Stop gaslighting me.
You are making out I'm silencing you, I'm literally inviting you to make your case. The floor is yours. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:52 - Feb 9 with 1071 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:50 - Feb 9 by GavTWTD |
To be honest with you, I would love this discussion to continue without you. I would love a reasoned debate with people who are seeing this with "fresh" eyes and having someone shouting at us all the time and saying we're all evil.
I've got cats and dogs and love them to bits. I eat meat regularly and don't think anything of it. I'm not a bad human being. I have a lot of empathy for people and the animals around me. I TOTALLY get that I'm being hypocritical but the market isn't ready for the population to turn vegan/vegetarian.
I did have a McPlant the other day and we need so much more of this. I enjoyed it and I felt that it would be comparable to a quarter pounder. However, I never ever have a quarter pounder so they need a Big Mac equivalent. Vegetarian food needs to be better and more available to the masses without being a struggle to find. We're lazy. |
I've called no one evil. That's projection of how my words made you feel, and isn't on me. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:52 - Feb 9 with 1071 views | Mullet |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:41 - Feb 9 by homer_123 |
I guess, in short, as humans we rationalise.
We've rationalised that killing animals for 'food' is acceptable. Killing an animal for sport or big game hunting?
I think this is my point - said cat is a pet - it's called Tiddles and the kids love it - kicking it and/or tormenting it - that isn't right or good.
However, if we are completely honest with ourselves, nor is killing or just hunting and not killing an animal for sport and nor is killing an animal for food but the later we seem to accept because we have rationalised it - some are quite comfortable with hunting and sport killing as well.
My observation here is that the later doesn't raise the same level of concern/ clamour etc. than the cat situation. It's fascinating. |
Killing animals for food is absolutely fine. Torturing them to death or at all is not. It’s not a difficult moral quandary at all.
We live in the real world where rationalism and survival are factors that don’t exist in the hypothetical spheres of moral piety and blind spots.
You can’t follow a life where no animal dies to produce food, whether that’s agriculture or even some romantic notion of grazing off the land. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:54 - Feb 9 with 1063 views | GavTWTD |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:52 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
I've called no one evil. That's projection of how my words made you feel, and isn't on me. |
See, there you go.
I'm deliberately going to have a steak tonight for that comment alone.
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