| Kurt Zouma and cats 14:11 - Feb 9 with 10378 views | homer_123 |
I'm posting this more out of interest as much as anything.
What he did was wrong and I've no idea why it was videoed etc. just bizarre.
That being said - I eat meat as do those pillorying him - we rear animals to slaughter, in fact we rear them on such a scale that is has devastating effects on the environment.
I find it interesting that, on the one hand, electrocuting and/or putting a bolt through an animals head and killing it doesn't seem to raise the same concern/outrage as the events of yesterday.
I wonder why that is? |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:10 - Feb 9 with 1831 views | eireblue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:38 - Feb 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
No, the basic principle for animal rights is that animal cruelty is wrong and that individuals who perpetrate it should be punished. Animals can have rights without being treated as on an equal footing with humans.
If it was equal consideration, Zouma would be facing the same legal consequences as if he had been filmed physically abusing his children and then posted it online. |
“Animal rights is the philosophy according to which many or all sentient animals have moral worth that is independent of their utility for humans, and that their most basic interests–such as in avoiding suffering–should be afforded the same consideration as similar interests of human beings.”
“ Singer's Principle of the Equal Consideration of Interests says that identical interests must be given equal moral weight no matter in what type of being they occur. Thus a moral agent must be species impartial. This principle follows from utilitarian moral theory.”
Equal consideration. You have stated equal footing, I didn’t say that.
Children can’t vote due to their mental capacity, no one is stating that dogs that get carried in handbags should have equal voting rights to the humans that carry dogs in handbags, …..hmmm….although…..
As an aside prosecutions for child cruelty, have used animal rights legislation, when children were seen as owned by parents.
Yes, he should face the same consequences, as if he had kicked a child.
I believe if you abuse children they are taken off you. |  | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:12 - Feb 9 with 1814 views | eireblue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:33 - Feb 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"Humans are just mammals with better tech." There is the premise that probably is at the root of much of the inability to grasp the argument here. Probably most of us do not agree with that argument. Certainly, legally it is not how we view the value of life. This premise then leads back to the circle about why do you treat running over a rabbit the same as a human? Most of us would not.
Quite how veganism "reduce the amount of harm and pain they do in the world" aside from the arguments over intensive farming I don't grasp either. An animal that has no life because it was not bred does not seem better to me than one that lives a more comfortable life than the majority of its wild kin but is slaughtered at the end of it instead of dying naturally.
Also, I would add that Callis has not been rude in this thread at all. The baiting and report of abuse from Archer was pathetic. |
On one point, this maybe interesting, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60305218
When considering the question of whether we are mammals with better tech.
On the second point. You can find a video of cows being led into buildings to be killed.
They are scared.
I had an uncle that was a cattle farmer, I have herded cattle in my youth.
They get scared.
Also consider, a cow is killed essentially when it is a teenager.
So, I am going to give you a choice.
During your life you will have children, they will be taken away from you.
I am then going to line you up with your young friends, you will see the one in front of you killed, and you will be dragged in after them.
I am going to do this, just for my pleasure.
Or I could chose not to have that done to you, and let you live, in what ever way is correct for you.
Which is the least cruel option?
Rabbit human example is that relevant to the vegan argument.
Humans react emotionally and differently to different events. If you were popping out to the shops to buy a new toy for 200 pounds, and at your doorstep, there is a starving child, that you can definitely save its life, it only takes 200 pounds. Do you step over the child and buy the toy?
There are children starving in Afghanistan, not in on your doorstep, but do you decide to give 200 pound to a child halfway around the world.
Rabbit wouldn’t be too bothered if you swerved, missed her and her child, and hit a horse.
Do I personally feel bad about a rabbit I hit 16 years ago, yep. But I haven’t run over anymore mammals to give a personal comparison between my feelings in causing vehicular death to different types of mammals. | | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:20 - Feb 9 with 1790 views | Ryorry |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:12 - Feb 9 by eireblue |
On one point, this maybe interesting, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60305218
When considering the question of whether we are mammals with better tech.
On the second point. You can find a video of cows being led into buildings to be killed.
They are scared.
I had an uncle that was a cattle farmer, I have herded cattle in my youth.
They get scared.
Also consider, a cow is killed essentially when it is a teenager.
So, I am going to give you a choice.
During your life you will have children, they will be taken away from you.
I am then going to line you up with your young friends, you will see the one in front of you killed, and you will be dragged in after them.
I am going to do this, just for my pleasure.
Or I could chose not to have that done to you, and let you live, in what ever way is correct for you.
Which is the least cruel option?
Rabbit human example is that relevant to the vegan argument.
Humans react emotionally and differently to different events. If you were popping out to the shops to buy a new toy for 200 pounds, and at your doorstep, there is a starving child, that you can definitely save its life, it only takes 200 pounds. Do you step over the child and buy the toy?
There are children starving in Afghanistan, not in on your doorstep, but do you decide to give 200 pound to a child halfway around the world.
Rabbit wouldn’t be too bothered if you swerved, missed her and her child, and hit a horse.
Do I personally feel bad about a rabbit I hit 16 years ago, yep. But I haven’t run over anymore mammals to give a personal comparison between my feelings in causing vehicular death to different types of mammals. |
Wow, and friends wonder why I bother with "a football forum"!
In a rush to get to my pint of tea, think I agree with much of that, but need a bit longer to work out your last para! :) |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:21 - Feb 9 with 1781 views | FattyBoomBoom |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:33 - Feb 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"Humans are just mammals with better tech." There is the premise that probably is at the root of much of the inability to grasp the argument here. Probably most of us do not agree with that argument. Certainly, legally it is not how we view the value of life. This premise then leads back to the circle about why do you treat running over a rabbit the same as a human? Most of us would not.
Quite how veganism "reduce the amount of harm and pain they do in the world" aside from the arguments over intensive farming I don't grasp either. An animal that has no life because it was not bred does not seem better to me than one that lives a more comfortable life than the majority of its wild kin but is slaughtered at the end of it instead of dying naturally.
Also, I would add that Callis has not been rude in this thread at all. The baiting and report of abuse from Archer was pathetic. |
You're not the first poster to paint a picture of contented, care free animals living out their lives on limitless green pastures, spared the indignity of death at 'the end of their natural life' by being euthanized and used for meat.
Natural lifespan VS Age at Slaughter:
Pigs: 12 years............. 6 months.
Cows: 20 years............. 1.5 years.
Chickens: 8 years....... 6 WEEKS.
Lambs: 12 years........... 6-8 months.
Shocking enough even before you look at the egg and dairy industry. |  | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:37 - Feb 9 with 1740 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:21 - Feb 9 by FattyBoomBoom |
You're not the first poster to paint a picture of contented, care free animals living out their lives on limitless green pastures, spared the indignity of death at 'the end of their natural life' by being euthanized and used for meat.
Natural lifespan VS Age at Slaughter:
Pigs: 12 years............. 6 months.
Cows: 20 years............. 1.5 years.
Chickens: 8 years....... 6 WEEKS.
Lambs: 12 years........... 6-8 months.
Shocking enough even before you look at the egg and dairy industry. |
6 weeks. Jesus barely any meat to get from that chicken is there?
The rest is quite sad. But can't see the chicken age being true. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:48 - Feb 9 with 1719 views | FrimleyBlue |
Blimey. Quite surprised by that. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:51 - Feb 9 with 1714 views | Ryorry |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:21 - Feb 9 by FattyBoomBoom |
You're not the first poster to paint a picture of contented, care free animals living out their lives on limitless green pastures, spared the indignity of death at 'the end of their natural life' by being euthanized and used for meat.
Natural lifespan VS Age at Slaughter:
Pigs: 12 years............. 6 months.
Cows: 20 years............. 1.5 years.
Chickens: 8 years....... 6 WEEKS.
Lambs: 12 years........... 6-8 months.
Shocking enough even before you look at the egg and dairy industry. |
Isn't that anthromorphism though? I mean the animals don't know how old they are, don't have any concept of age or lifespans. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 23:13 - Feb 9 with 1681 views | eireblue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:51 - Feb 9 by Ryorry |
Isn't that anthromorphism though? I mean the animals don't know how old they are, don't have any concept of age or lifespans. |
To try and think about, is example x an anthromorphism angle, sometimes you have to give analogies that can be quite emotive. E.g. restate some form of abstraction but then expand it into in human terms.
And people can get upset, if it is not very clearly explained.
Even when very erudite moral philosophers put across points, to illustrated stuff, they get in trouble. I am a bit tired, I really should do needles and wordles earlier in the day.
So I am not going to attempt anything.
….hmmmm….that wasn’t a useful post at all really.
Hmmm, maybe more cheerful stuff instead.
https://www.bbcearth.com/news/all-fur-and-games-why-do-animals-play | | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 23:52 - Feb 9 with 1641 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 23:13 - Feb 9 by eireblue |
To try and think about, is example x an anthromorphism angle, sometimes you have to give analogies that can be quite emotive. E.g. restate some form of abstraction but then expand it into in human terms.
And people can get upset, if it is not very clearly explained.
Even when very erudite moral philosophers put across points, to illustrated stuff, they get in trouble. I am a bit tired, I really should do needles and wordles earlier in the day.
So I am not going to attempt anything.
….hmmmm….that wasn’t a useful post at all really.
Hmmm, maybe more cheerful stuff instead.
https://www.bbcearth.com/news/all-fur-and-games-why-do-animals-play |
God, imagine the world they’d build if after the forthcoming Great Mushroom War all that survives for the next generation of humans is my forum contributions on here. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 08:54 - Feb 10 with 1525 views | WeWereZombies |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:12 - Feb 9 by eireblue |
On one point, this maybe interesting, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60305218
When considering the question of whether we are mammals with better tech.
On the second point. You can find a video of cows being led into buildings to be killed.
They are scared.
I had an uncle that was a cattle farmer, I have herded cattle in my youth.
They get scared.
Also consider, a cow is killed essentially when it is a teenager.
So, I am going to give you a choice.
During your life you will have children, they will be taken away from you.
I am then going to line you up with your young friends, you will see the one in front of you killed, and you will be dragged in after them.
I am going to do this, just for my pleasure.
Or I could chose not to have that done to you, and let you live, in what ever way is correct for you.
Which is the least cruel option?
Rabbit human example is that relevant to the vegan argument.
Humans react emotionally and differently to different events. If you were popping out to the shops to buy a new toy for 200 pounds, and at your doorstep, there is a starving child, that you can definitely save its life, it only takes 200 pounds. Do you step over the child and buy the toy?
There are children starving in Afghanistan, not in on your doorstep, but do you decide to give 200 pound to a child halfway around the world.
Rabbit wouldn’t be too bothered if you swerved, missed her and her child, and hit a horse.
Do I personally feel bad about a rabbit I hit 16 years ago, yep. But I haven’t run over anymore mammals to give a personal comparison between my feelings in causing vehicular death to different types of mammals. |
Put like that, quite a modest proposal...
Peter Singer is, indeed, an interesting and challenging philosopher but I find his position on euthanasia and the rights of people with compromised sentience tricky:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Criticism
Also, if you extend his ideas on relations with animals (I think there was a book or paper some years ago that almost advocated a quite controversial extension that, I making this point tongue firmly in cheek oo-eer, could justify the practices we accuse our local rivals who are said to participate in football and other activities) you can lose empathy and support for animal welfare quite quickly. Nevertheless, an interesting thinker and I have found a recent interview that seems to be worth a squint:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/peter-singer-is-commi |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:04 - Feb 10 with 1510 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:41 - Feb 9 by JakeITFC |
Think it's hard not to be hypocritical in some way on a lot of issues nowadays really - I drive an electric car and espouse the virtues of reducing carbon every day but am not willing to give up flying away on holidays, am massively anti-this government but benefit from some of their policies etc.
I think discourse has become so polarised on almost every issue that it's kind of difficult to live in the grey areas without having someone on the fringe judging you for your choice. |
I read that as "someone on the fridge judging you" and imagined this little leprechaun character sat up there with his little legs dangling over, wagging a finger while criticising me. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:19 - Feb 10 with 1495 views | J2BLUE |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:48 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
I'm just trying to point out you're not so innocent as you're making out
So you can't complain about work now because you'd be a hypocrite as you buy veg from companies who overworked and underpaid employees.
Is your family the same as a chicken
Do you treat your family the same as Bob up the road.
I just want yes or no answers please
You're the one who said you treat animals equally.
It would help not to be patronising in replies. I do know what I'm asking. You said you treat everything equally. If you actually answered the questions we can proceed with the conversation
And I never said it was a vegan problem? See this is your politician answers again. Don't answer any questions and twist things for your agenda. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 20:52]
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I've been critical of Callis in the past but he's had some really stupid stuff thrown at him in this thread. Your Bob analogy is just odd.
I'm sure Callis would not do avoidable harm to Bob and if he needed help with something Callis could well help him. He doesn't have to treat Bob like his brother.
Quite strange to suggest you need to either literally eat a chicken or set it a place around the table on Christmas Day along with the rest of your family. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:30 - Feb 10 with 1474 views | Fenland_Blue |
He's rightly getting dogs abuse, but didn't the RSPCA and the media do nothing about that Jolyon Moron bragging he killed a fox with a baseball bat on Twitter a couple of Christmas ago? |  |
| Up and mainly down, following Town since 88 |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:31 - Feb 10 with 1470 views | WeWereZombies |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:30 - Feb 10 by Fenland_Blue |
He's rightly getting dogs abuse, but didn't the RSPCA and the media do nothing about that Jolyon Moron bragging he killed a fox with a baseball bat on Twitter a couple of Christmas ago? |
Yes, but people have cats as pets. They love them, cosset them and feed them.
I mean, no one feeds foxes, do they? [Post edited 10 Feb 2022 9:32]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:39 - Feb 10 with 1460 views | LevelTheLand |
I have been reading this forum for many years, and for much of that time I have agreed with Callis' views, but not necessarily the way he puts them across (sorry).
However, I really can't see where he has put a foot wrong here. People seem to be trying to justify their own consumption of meat, by calling Callis a hypocrite for occasionally, inadvertently eating insects that have died on a piece of fruit or veg. I personally think he has done remarkably well to keep as calm as he has, with some of the ridiculous hypothetical scenarios that have been thrown his way.
Having said that, just buy Bob a little something for his birthday, Callis. |  | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:43 - Feb 10 with 1437 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:39 - Feb 10 by LevelTheLand |
I have been reading this forum for many years, and for much of that time I have agreed with Callis' views, but not necessarily the way he puts them across (sorry).
However, I really can't see where he has put a foot wrong here. People seem to be trying to justify their own consumption of meat, by calling Callis a hypocrite for occasionally, inadvertently eating insects that have died on a piece of fruit or veg. I personally think he has done remarkably well to keep as calm as he has, with some of the ridiculous hypothetical scenarios that have been thrown his way.
Having said that, just buy Bob a little something for his birthday, Callis. |
Or murder him. Those are the only two options. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:46 - Feb 10 with 1429 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:30 - Feb 10 by Fenland_Blue |
He's rightly getting dogs abuse, but didn't the RSPCA and the media do nothing about that Jolyon Moron bragging he killed a fox with a baseball bat on Twitter a couple of Christmas ago? |
All points aside on Jo Maugham and the fox - What makes him a “moron” exactly? Which right wong mouth piece fed you that line? Grimes or Guido Fawkes? [Post edited 10 Feb 2022 9:47]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:49 - Feb 10 with 1424 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:39 - Feb 10 by LevelTheLand |
I have been reading this forum for many years, and for much of that time I have agreed with Callis' views, but not necessarily the way he puts them across (sorry).
However, I really can't see where he has put a foot wrong here. People seem to be trying to justify their own consumption of meat, by calling Callis a hypocrite for occasionally, inadvertently eating insects that have died on a piece of fruit or veg. I personally think he has done remarkably well to keep as calm as he has, with some of the ridiculous hypothetical scenarios that have been thrown his way.
Having said that, just buy Bob a little something for his birthday, Callis. |
Don’t forget also eating avocados and cashews as well as something about supply lines and global trade. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:53 - Feb 10 with 1426 views | chicoazul |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:30 - Feb 10 by Fenland_Blue |
He's rightly getting dogs abuse, but didn't the RSPCA and the media do nothing about that Jolyon Moron bragging he killed a fox with a baseball bat on Twitter a couple of Christmas ago? |
He’s a white middle class barrister. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 10:02 - Feb 10 with 1409 views | LevelTheLand |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:49 - Feb 10 by monytowbray |
Don’t forget also eating avocados and cashews as well as something about supply lines and global trade. |
I have to confess to not being a vegan, but most of my meals nowadays are. But I do find it frustrating that people who quite happily eat slaughtered animals tell me I shouldn't eat avocados. | | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 10:12 - Feb 10 with 1379 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 10:02 - Feb 10 by LevelTheLand |
I have to confess to not being a vegan, but most of my meals nowadays are. But I do find it frustrating that people who quite happily eat slaughtered animals tell me I shouldn't eat avocados. |
I don’t like avocados and oat milk trumps cashew milk. It’s one of the laziest and assumptive anti-vegan takes I hear. Most vegans I know still continue to improve the ethics in their diet after ditching animal products too, it’s largely meat eaters clinging onto the last thread of whatever they can to justify, ya know, being wrong.
I also think there’s a few on here who haven’t quite sussed the days of VEGAN PILE ONS from yesteryear are long gone. They hope others will run in and nod at their stupid opinions whilst joining in on abuse like the 30+ pagers, but reality is the majority of TWTD isn’t that ignorant and time to ponder/reflect has seen a lot of change. And even those who haven’t can’t really dismiss the facts around climate, resources and life/death ethics. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 10:28 - Feb 10 with 1366 views | Leaky |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 14:26 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
The core difference seems to be “I ate it or sold it as food afterwards”.
Animals love being slaughtered of course though, the whole process causes them no pain or distress at all.
Sarcasm not aimed at you of course, just speaking in general. |
Strange animals die every day of the week & get eaten by something. Could be a weak wildebeest eaten by a lion , a pheasant hit by a car & eaten by foxes , crows ect. The only reason humans are not consumed is because we dispose of our dead by burial or cremation. |  | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 10:32 - Feb 10 with 1364 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 09:19 - Feb 10 by J2BLUE |
I've been critical of Callis in the past but he's had some really stupid stuff thrown at him in this thread. Your Bob analogy is just odd.
I'm sure Callis would not do avoidable harm to Bob and if he needed help with something Callis could well help him. He doesn't have to treat Bob like his brother.
Quite strange to suggest you need to either literally eat a chicken or set it a place around the table on Christmas Day along with the rest of your family. |
"I treat all animals equally"
So that means all animals surely. Surely we aren't just talking about killing with that statement? Or that is what I was trying to gather.
"I treat all animals the same in terms of killing" Ok yes, but then kicking a cat (who is a household pet, AKA a menber of your family hence the question) and killing a chicken isn't the same thing then?. The other statement is not true unfortunately. Not sure what is difficult to understand.
Also, he seems to be standing on a pedastool, when he doesn't seem to check where all his food comes from. Sorry I forgot you can't have a conversation on here.
Your last sentence suggests you don't understand what i'm asking about. That isn't what i'm compared. If you treat everyone the same, which is what was said, then surtely it implies ALL. Clearly it doesn't
Anyhow, I'll leave it there now. Each to our own. [Post edited 10 Feb 2022 10:41]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 11:25 - Feb 10 with 1300 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 10:32 - Feb 10 by Vaughan8 |
"I treat all animals equally"
So that means all animals surely. Surely we aren't just talking about killing with that statement? Or that is what I was trying to gather.
"I treat all animals the same in terms of killing" Ok yes, but then kicking a cat (who is a household pet, AKA a menber of your family hence the question) and killing a chicken isn't the same thing then?. The other statement is not true unfortunately. Not sure what is difficult to understand.
Also, he seems to be standing on a pedastool, when he doesn't seem to check where all his food comes from. Sorry I forgot you can't have a conversation on here.
Your last sentence suggests you don't understand what i'm asking about. That isn't what i'm compared. If you treat everyone the same, which is what was said, then surtely it implies ALL. Clearly it doesn't
Anyhow, I'll leave it there now. Each to our own. [Post edited 10 Feb 2022 10:41]
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No everyone just thinks you are thick and odd.
Where does Bob fit into all of this now? Did he kick the chicken? Who should I murder? [Post edited 10 Feb 2022 11:27]
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