| Kurt Zouma and cats 14:11 - Feb 9 with 10345 views | homer_123 |
I'm posting this more out of interest as much as anything.
What he did was wrong and I've no idea why it was videoed etc. just bizarre.
That being said - I eat meat as do those pillorying him - we rear animals to slaughter, in fact we rear them on such a scale that is has devastating effects on the environment.
I find it interesting that, on the one hand, electrocuting and/or putting a bolt through an animals head and killing it doesn't seem to raise the same concern/outrage as the events of yesterday.
I wonder why that is? |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:08 - Feb 9 with 1113 views | Swansea_Blue |
Ok, I see this thread is ‘developing’. To diffuse any arguments before they begin, I hope we can all agree that you shouldn’t punt cats. They’re nowhere near streamlined enough, so it’s better to stick to things like hamsters and toy dog breeds.
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:13 - Feb 9 with 1097 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:08 - Feb 9 by Swansea_Blue |
Ok, I see this thread is ‘developing’. To diffuse any arguments before they begin, I hope we can all agree that you shouldn’t punt cats. They’re nowhere near streamlined enough, so it’s better to stick to things like hamsters and toy dog breeds.
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Kurt Zouma has a lot to fcuking answer for. Clogging up this board. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:19 - Feb 9 with 1065 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:08 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
You don't see animals as equal though.
I'm guessing you love your family rather than Bob up the road?
That isn't equal.
Do you buy your family presents etc? Bet you don't buy Bob a present
You see what is happening though. You have an attachment to some "animals" more than others.
Some advice, don't shove your vegan views down people's necks and call the hypocrites. If you look at aspects of all of life, your going to be hypocritical in lots of things however small?
Do the vegetables grown have chemicals on them that kill insects/animals? |
I do, that’s the point I’ve made over and over when you said a chicken and a cat aren’t the same. You said that, not me. Me challenging this has been the entire premise of the point.
Your personal attachment doesn’t justify death. I’m not sure how much clearer I can make it.
How am I the hypocrite exactly? You seem to be insistent I’m wrong for not devaluing some life over others, then insisting I do.
I give up, I am going to have to conclude you are a bit thick. Sorry. I tried to be civil but you’re getting yourself tied up and becoming abusive.
You still didn’t tell me which points I’ve swerved, then again I don’t think you understand the point, seeing as you are now reverse engineering my argument at me without even seeing where you’ve flipped, and then making out I should be for killing chickens if I wasn’t a hypocrite. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 20:23]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:26 - Feb 9 with 1045 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:19 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
I do, that’s the point I’ve made over and over when you said a chicken and a cat aren’t the same. You said that, not me. Me challenging this has been the entire premise of the point.
Your personal attachment doesn’t justify death. I’m not sure how much clearer I can make it.
How am I the hypocrite exactly? You seem to be insistent I’m wrong for not devaluing some life over others, then insisting I do.
I give up, I am going to have to conclude you are a bit thick. Sorry. I tried to be civil but you’re getting yourself tied up and becoming abusive.
You still didn’t tell me which points I’ve swerved, then again I don’t think you understand the point, seeing as you are now reverse engineering my argument at me without even seeing where you’ve flipped, and then making out I should be for killing chickens if I wasn’t a hypocrite. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 20:23]
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You said you treat animals equally? Clearly you don't or there is something wrong. Surely you care more for a family member than a chicken, or a stranger.
Forget killing, you said you treat them equally. Or is only the killing side? I bet you have killed a living thing in your life?
Im guessing you realise some of these nurseries that grow the vegetables have underpaid and overworked staff. Many are foreign and either live with it, or don't understand it.
I hope you've done your research on where your veg etc has come from [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 20:28]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:41 - Feb 9 with 978 views | JakeITFC |
Think it's hard not to be hypocritical in some way on a lot of issues nowadays really - I drive an electric car and espouse the virtues of reducing carbon every day but am not willing to give up flying away on holidays, am massively anti-this government but benefit from some of their policies etc.
I think discourse has become so polarised on almost every issue that it's kind of difficult to live in the grey areas without having someone on the fringe judging you for your choice. |  | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:41 - Feb 9 with 972 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:26 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
You said you treat animals equally? Clearly you don't or there is something wrong. Surely you care more for a family member than a chicken, or a stranger.
Forget killing, you said you treat them equally. Or is only the killing side? I bet you have killed a living thing in your life?
Im guessing you realise some of these nurseries that grow the vegetables have underpaid and overworked staff. Many are foreign and either live with it, or don't understand it.
I hope you've done your research on where your veg etc has come from [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 20:28]
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I see what’s happening here.
Your opinion is they aren’t equal, which you presume is fact because of confirmation bias, therefore I must be lying.
The fact is, scientifically, animals all feel pain and fear, which has informed my opinion they are the same, which you can’t grasp because your opinion isn’t informed by any facts.
Hypothetical trolley dilemmas of attachment are irrelevant to the point, which I have told you several times.
I’m not the one who keeps dragging up the idea of killing people or animals. Am I going mad? I treat I actively reduce my harm to animals in my choices, what other side is there to killing? I’m not entirely sure what you are accusing me of. I don’t think you know either at this point.
I’ve eaten meat before I was vegan, yes. I’m not sure what that has to do with the point either. I changed, you are using the same point to justify not doing so I’m guessing?
I do my best on my food sources, and I’ve never once said veganism is perfect. I have stated it has a lower carbon footprint and causes less suffering. That’s a fact.
I didn’t realise slavery capitalism and pesticides was an exclusive vegan issue either. I expect you have none of those issues in your diet? I’ve already addressed those points too, despite your insistence of swerving. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:44 - Feb 9 with 967 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:41 - Feb 9 by JakeITFC |
Think it's hard not to be hypocritical in some way on a lot of issues nowadays really - I drive an electric car and espouse the virtues of reducing carbon every day but am not willing to give up flying away on holidays, am massively anti-this government but benefit from some of their policies etc.
I think discourse has become so polarised on almost every issue that it's kind of difficult to live in the grey areas without having someone on the fringe judging you for your choice. |
I post my reasoning, it’s not my fault if people feel judged by that. I’m not responsible for the emotions of others.
And all round really, that’s the case. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:48 - Feb 9 with 959 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:41 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
I see what’s happening here.
Your opinion is they aren’t equal, which you presume is fact because of confirmation bias, therefore I must be lying.
The fact is, scientifically, animals all feel pain and fear, which has informed my opinion they are the same, which you can’t grasp because your opinion isn’t informed by any facts.
Hypothetical trolley dilemmas of attachment are irrelevant to the point, which I have told you several times.
I’m not the one who keeps dragging up the idea of killing people or animals. Am I going mad? I treat I actively reduce my harm to animals in my choices, what other side is there to killing? I’m not entirely sure what you are accusing me of. I don’t think you know either at this point.
I’ve eaten meat before I was vegan, yes. I’m not sure what that has to do with the point either. I changed, you are using the same point to justify not doing so I’m guessing?
I do my best on my food sources, and I’ve never once said veganism is perfect. I have stated it has a lower carbon footprint and causes less suffering. That’s a fact.
I didn’t realise slavery capitalism and pesticides was an exclusive vegan issue either. I expect you have none of those issues in your diet? I’ve already addressed those points too, despite your insistence of swerving. |
I'm just trying to point out you're not so innocent as you're making out
So you can't complain about work now because you'd be a hypocrite as you buy veg from companies who overworked and underpaid employees.
Is your family the same as a chicken
Do you treat your family the same as Bob up the road.
I just want yes or no answers please
You're the one who said you treat animals equally.
It would help not to be patronising in replies. I do know what I'm asking. You said you treat everything equally. If you actually answered the questions we can proceed with the conversation
And I never said it was a vegan problem? See this is your politician answers again. Don't answer any questions and twist things for your agenda. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 20:52]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:54 - Feb 9 with 944 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:48 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
I'm just trying to point out you're not so innocent as you're making out
So you can't complain about work now because you'd be a hypocrite as you buy veg from companies who overworked and underpaid employees.
Is your family the same as a chicken
Do you treat your family the same as Bob up the road.
I just want yes or no answers please
You're the one who said you treat animals equally.
It would help not to be patronising in replies. I do know what I'm asking. You said you treat everything equally. If you actually answered the questions we can proceed with the conversation
And I never said it was a vegan problem? See this is your politician answers again. Don't answer any questions and twist things for your agenda. [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 20:52]
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How I treat my family or pets has nothing to do with anything. That’s the point, again. Your lack of a personal attachment does not justify killing something (or someone, you are oddly obsessed with murder). I’d rather not kill my family, a stranger or a chicken. Are you really struggling that much?
At no point have I said I’m innocent. The opposite a few times in this thread actually. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:55 - Feb 9 with 942 views | Ryorry |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 17:29 - Feb 9 by Ryorry |
Agree with a lot of that.
Seems a few haven't read this link which I posted in the locked thread -
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/livestock-ghg-emissions-science-1.4753165
"Campaigns to abandon meat sometimes ignore the reality of small-scale farmers in Asia, Africa and South America who depend on animals for their health and livelihoods, according to experts ... if you're living in certain regions in Africa, livestock provides you with essential nutrition you can't get somewhere else," he said.
The animals are also used to transport water and plough land, as well as producing manure to fertilize crops, said FAO's Mottet. What is needed is balance, she said."
In this country, the 'balanced farming' approach is the traditional mixed farm, where soil health is maintained by spreading animal manure. Without that, soil is impoverished when land is kept to exclusively arable production. There's a beautiful graphic on that which I'll try to find later. |
Can't find the 2 side-by-side photos of slices through examples of 1. arable monoculture & 2. mixed farming turf/soil, which is a shame as visually the difference was so amazing & obvious, with the mixed being immensely richer & healthier, but the following diagrams give the idea -
Also this old bookmark (article from 3 yrs ago) gives a good overview of the rationale. Think it's been posted on here before, with comments that it couldn't meet the entire UK's demands for meat. It could if we all reduced meat consumption to twice weekly though (which I, & I know many others on here have). FWIW I do think that's the way forward, ie a gradual reduction.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farme
"Rather than being seduced by exhortations to eat more products made from industrially grown soya, maize and grains, we should be encouraging sustainable forms of meat and dairy production based on traditional rotational systems, permanent pasture and conservation grazing. We should, at the very least, question the ethics of driving up demand for crops that require high inputs of fertiliser, fungicides, pesticides and herbicides, while demonising sustainable forms of livestock farming that can restore soils and biodiversity, and sequester carbon." |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:57 - Feb 9 with 940 views | GlasgowBlue |
Hats off to Callis on this thread though. He has a position. He's consistent on his position. He isn't picking and choosing which points to address and which points to avoid. And he can probably do this for days.
He's not great on the hearts and minds stuff but probably feels he has no need to be. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:57 - Feb 9 with 932 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:54 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
How I treat my family or pets has nothing to do with anything. That’s the point, again. Your lack of a personal attachment does not justify killing something (or someone, you are oddly obsessed with murder). I’d rather not kill my family, a stranger or a chicken. Are you really struggling that much?
At no point have I said I’m innocent. The opposite a few times in this thread actually. |
So you only treat all animals equal in regards to killing? | | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:59 - Feb 9 with 930 views | Vaughan8 |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:57 - Feb 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Hats off to Callis on this thread though. He has a position. He's consistent on his position. He isn't picking and choosing which points to address and which points to avoid. And he can probably do this for days.
He's not great on the hearts and minds stuff but probably feels he has no need to be. |
He doesn't answer any questions though. Maybe too personal but if you state thins like you treat all animals equally then I for one want to know what that means.
It seems as if it's only in relation to killing. That's all I needed to know. I'm out haha [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 21:00]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:00 - Feb 9 with 926 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:57 - Feb 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Hats off to Callis on this thread though. He has a position. He's consistent on his position. He isn't picking and choosing which points to address and which points to avoid. And he can probably do this for days.
He's not great on the hearts and minds stuff but probably feels he has no need to be. |
All beef aside, thank you.
If you can see it I’m probably alright! | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:07 - Feb 9 with 917 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:57 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
So you only treat all animals equal in regards to killing? |
What are you implying? I beat them but don’t eat them? Spell this out as I’m lost. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:11 - Feb 9 with 899 views | monytowbray |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:59 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
He doesn't answer any questions though. Maybe too personal but if you state thins like you treat all animals equally then I for one want to know what that means.
It seems as if it's only in relation to killing. That's all I needed to know. I'm out haha [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 21:00]
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As opposed to what?
Is anyone following this? | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:12 - Feb 9 with 896 views | eireblue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 20:57 - Feb 9 by Vaughan8 |
So you only treat all animals equal in regards to killing? |
The basic principle for animal rights is equal consideration.
A cat and a cow, given the choice, would prefer not to be caused pain, much like all mammals.
Cats, cows, humans have a common ancestor, that also preferred not to feel pain.
So if a cat or a cow gets kicked in the face, it is not really going to matter to if it was kicked in the face by a horse or a donkey.
It is really about how hard it was kicked, as far as the cat or cow is concerned.
As with quite a few points, people are talking from the point of view of a human in relation to the animal.
Humans are just mammals with better tech.
Individually, people can try and reduce the amount of harm and pain they do in the world.
Being vegan is one of those ways. It isn’t difficult to do. |  | | |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:22 - Feb 9 with 869 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:00 - Feb 9 by monytowbray |
All beef aside, thank you.
If you can see it I’m probably alright! |
'Beef'. I see what you did there. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:24 - Feb 9 with 863 views | Darth_Koont |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 16:41 - Feb 9 by homer_123 |
I guess, in short, as humans we rationalise.
We've rationalised that killing animals for 'food' is acceptable. Killing an animal for sport or big game hunting?
I think this is my point - said cat is a pet - it's called Tiddles and the kids love it - kicking it and/or tormenting it - that isn't right or good.
However, if we are completely honest with ourselves, nor is killing or just hunting and not killing an animal for sport and nor is killing an animal for food but the later we seem to accept because we have rationalised it - some are quite comfortable with hunting and sport killing as well.
My observation here is that the later doesn't raise the same level of concern/ clamour etc. than the cat situation. It's fascinating. |
You might be right but it’s not objectively rational. It’s subjectively rational.
We project ourselves onto different animals and different situations. If an animal isn’t our food, it’s something else. And if it’s entertaining/cuddly or what we perceive as a pest we treat them accordingly and dramatically differently.
So, it’s far too often us and our needs in the centre rather than any truly rational appreciation of the animal and their rights. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:33 - Feb 9 with 840 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:12 - Feb 9 by eireblue |
The basic principle for animal rights is equal consideration.
A cat and a cow, given the choice, would prefer not to be caused pain, much like all mammals.
Cats, cows, humans have a common ancestor, that also preferred not to feel pain.
So if a cat or a cow gets kicked in the face, it is not really going to matter to if it was kicked in the face by a horse or a donkey.
It is really about how hard it was kicked, as far as the cat or cow is concerned.
As with quite a few points, people are talking from the point of view of a human in relation to the animal.
Humans are just mammals with better tech.
Individually, people can try and reduce the amount of harm and pain they do in the world.
Being vegan is one of those ways. It isn’t difficult to do. |
"Humans are just mammals with better tech." There is the premise that probably is at the root of much of the inability to grasp the argument here. Probably most of us do not agree with that argument. Certainly, legally it is not how we view the value of life. This premise then leads back to the circle about why do you treat running over a rabbit the same as a human? Most of us would not.
Quite how veganism "reduce the amount of harm and pain they do in the world" aside from the arguments over intensive farming I don't grasp either. An animal that has no life because it was not bred does not seem better to me than one that lives a more comfortable life than the majority of its wild kin but is slaughtered at the end of it instead of dying naturally.
Also, I would add that Callis has not been rude in this thread at all. The baiting and report of abuse from Archer was pathetic. |  |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:38 - Feb 9 with 817 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:12 - Feb 9 by eireblue |
The basic principle for animal rights is equal consideration.
A cat and a cow, given the choice, would prefer not to be caused pain, much like all mammals.
Cats, cows, humans have a common ancestor, that also preferred not to feel pain.
So if a cat or a cow gets kicked in the face, it is not really going to matter to if it was kicked in the face by a horse or a donkey.
It is really about how hard it was kicked, as far as the cat or cow is concerned.
As with quite a few points, people are talking from the point of view of a human in relation to the animal.
Humans are just mammals with better tech.
Individually, people can try and reduce the amount of harm and pain they do in the world.
Being vegan is one of those ways. It isn’t difficult to do. |
No, the basic principle for animal rights is that animal cruelty is wrong and that individuals who perpetrate it should be punished. Animals can have rights without being treated as on an equal footing with humans.
If it was equal consideration, Zouma would be facing the same legal consequences as if he had been filmed physically abusing his children and then posted it online. | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:40 - Feb 9 with 804 views | Ryorry |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:24 - Feb 9 by Darth_Koont |
You might be right but it’s not objectively rational. It’s subjectively rational.
We project ourselves onto different animals and different situations. If an animal isn’t our food, it’s something else. And if it’s entertaining/cuddly or what we perceive as a pest we treat them accordingly and dramatically differently.
So, it’s far too often us and our needs in the centre rather than any truly rational appreciation of the animal and their rights. |
I said for years that it was hypocritical to shout loudly about cuddly animals being slaughtered, whilst completely ignoring the agonizing slow death of rats & mice from poison, traps etc., & got shouted down as "they're vermin".
At least now glue traps have been banned in Scotland, and are about to be in England & Wales (I think the new legislation may already be in force actually, not sure).
https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/news-article/bva-welcomes-bill-to-ban-public | |
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:56 - Feb 9 with 749 views | WeWereZombies |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:24 - Feb 9 by Darth_Koont |
You might be right but it’s not objectively rational. It’s subjectively rational.
We project ourselves onto different animals and different situations. If an animal isn’t our food, it’s something else. And if it’s entertaining/cuddly or what we perceive as a pest we treat them accordingly and dramatically differently.
So, it’s far too often us and our needs in the centre rather than any truly rational appreciation of the animal and their rights. |
Good post, one obvious difference between human and other animals is that we have considerably more agency. So we have a 'duty of care' that other animals cannot have, we are the custodians - not that we fulfil that function at all well.
But then again, that is not surprising when we are getting towards six pages about a cat that is now in the safe care of the RSPCA whilst thousand of children die with hardly a mention:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/9/yemens-war-explained-in-maps-and-charts-
'The UN estimates the war has killed 377,000 people as of the end of 2021, both directly and indirectly through hunger and disease — with 70 percent of those deaths being children.'
'Nearly half the country (14.5 million) of 30 million people does not have enough food, according to the World Food Programme.
Nearly half (47.5 percent) of children under five face chronic malnutrition.'
The World Food Programme Executive Director, David Beasley (a Republican and supporter of Trump for president in 2016) has berated world leaders because the WFP always struggles for funding:
'If the world's top 400 billionaires chipped in, Beasley said, all it would take to prevent famine is .36% of their total net worth increases.'
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/starvation-deaths-billionaires-could-help-fix-it-da [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 21:58]
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| Kurt Zouma and cats on 22:01 - Feb 9 with 723 views | Ryorry |
| Kurt Zouma and cats on 21:56 - Feb 9 by WeWereZombies |
Good post, one obvious difference between human and other animals is that we have considerably more agency. So we have a 'duty of care' that other animals cannot have, we are the custodians - not that we fulfil that function at all well.
But then again, that is not surprising when we are getting towards six pages about a cat that is now in the safe care of the RSPCA whilst thousand of children die with hardly a mention:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/9/yemens-war-explained-in-maps-and-charts-
'The UN estimates the war has killed 377,000 people as of the end of 2021, both directly and indirectly through hunger and disease — with 70 percent of those deaths being children.'
'Nearly half the country (14.5 million) of 30 million people does not have enough food, according to the World Food Programme.
Nearly half (47.5 percent) of children under five face chronic malnutrition.'
The World Food Programme Executive Director, David Beasley (a Republican and supporter of Trump for president in 2016) has berated world leaders because the WFP always struggles for funding:
'If the world's top 400 billionaires chipped in, Beasley said, all it would take to prevent famine is .36% of their total net worth increases.'
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/starvation-deaths-billionaires-could-help-fix-it-da [Post edited 9 Feb 2022 21:58]
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Yep - as I've also said before on these threads, some people can forget that in terms of basic biology & being sentient creatures, human beings are animals too. | |
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