| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:17 - Mar 9 with 1313 views | Mullet |
We need to do far more that will hurt our own government. Expel every rouble from the City, cease trading with every Russian owned business etc. But our government are bought and paid for by Putin's regime aren't they?
Posturing and insisting we are "world beating" rather than a massive laughing stock seems to be the spin they prefer. Unfortunately war on some scale seems more and more inevitable at the moment. As it will be the force and action which distracts from the reality and unites the country in enough of a way as to keep them in power. |  |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:28 - Mar 9 with 1276 views | Guthrum |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 19:34 - Mar 9 by jeera |
There will be underground facilities like nowhere else on Earth.
With every need you can think of catered for, including hydroponic systems to support the growing of fresh food, fresh water pools with live fish.
Filtration systems for air/water...
Strip clubs, bars...anything for the few and their own.
There will be luxury living down there enough for many years you can guarantee.
The rest can burn as far as he's concerned I've no doubt.
Whether those in the know would allow that to happen is the only hope in that situation. |
They surface after a few months and are promptly shot by the Chinese, who have inherited what's left of the Earth. |  |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:28 - Mar 9 with 1275 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 19:25 - Mar 9 by giant_stow |
I read somewhere that 2 of 3 men including Putin have to agree to launch. Not sure if this true and who the other two fellas are. |
Sadly not true. Or at least not true in the way you think.
Unlike all western democratic societies with a nuclear capability there are no 'checks and balances' on the release of nuclear weapons in Russia, it comes down to one man, Putin, who, even with checks and balances, has spent 15 years surrounding himself with 'yes' men.
However, the release, following an order, is triggered by individual commander in a silo, submarine or mobile launch vehicle. You would hope that those individuals would have a conscience, but a large number of the Russian military are very used to simply carrying out 'orders' without any emotion.
Russia also has a system called 'dead mans hand' which is an automated launch of nuclear missiles at pre-designated targets if a nuclear blast is detected in, or rather above Moscow, designed to prevent a so called 'decapitation' attack.
Putin is unlikely to instigate a nuclear exchange, but he does want the restoration of the Soviet bloc a re-establishment of the USSR and the recommencement of the Cold War, which he finds a personal insult for Russia to be perceived to have 'lost' that. [Post edited 9 Mar 2022 20:31]
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:32 - Mar 9 with 1259 views | Mullet |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:28 - Mar 9 by Guthrum |
They surface after a few months and are promptly shot by the Chinese, who have inherited what's left of the Earth. |
Actually I believe it's the Greeks who inherit the Earth innit | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:32 - Mar 9 with 1258 views | Guthrum |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:11 - Mar 9 by jeera |
If you recycle it then why not?
Russia's a big place and quite possibly underground rivers around those parts?
Can't be hard with the tech and a few billion dollars.
I don't know what Bob's name is in Russian, but I reckon he's probably a smart fella. Probably the sort of chap who can get vehicles to Mars, that kind of thing.
If it were me, I'd probably dig a hole under the garage, breath through my sleeve and hope for the best. [Post edited 9 Mar 2022 20:12]
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Underground rivers flow down sinkholes from the surface and may therefore be radioactive.
If it was me, I'd announce the launch was imminent, wait until they've all gone down into their bunkers, then simply pour thick concrete over all the exits and forget where they were. | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:33 - Mar 9 with 1254 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:32 - Mar 9 by Mullet |
Actually I believe it's the Greeks who inherit the Earth innit |
Geeks I think. | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 22:13 - Mar 9 with 1190 views | Guthrum |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 19:28 - Mar 9 by Swansea_Blue |
The 'not getting involved' argument is extremely compelling isn't it. But at the same time it's sickening to see what's happening. Do we try and appease or placate him and give him an out, or just say fk it and crush him? I don't know the answer and I'd hate to make that decision because of the many thousands (millions?) who could die is this all escalates to WW3 or even nuclear.
He's a bully and probably a coward at heart. I suspect he needs to be stood up to and have his arse kicked before he'll back down. But you just don't know how he'll react. |
Problem is, crushing Putin would not be a quick or easy task.
Yes, it's likely - but by no means guaranteed - that NATO and friends would win a conventional war against Russia (so long as China didn't get involved), but it would almost certainly take years, and involve hundreds of thousands of dead and seriously wounded. Economies would be ruined. Large areas of eastern and central Europe would be devastated. Even if Moscow and St Petersburg are taken, they can retreat behind the Urals and keep fighting.
At many stages during that process, especially if Russia is facing collapse, there is the danger of things going nuclear. Either starting with "battlefield" weapons and working up, or a sudden all-in exchange on a strategic scale. Then everybody has lost, probably a couple of hundred million dead, several times that many poisoned, large parts of the northern hemisphere uninhabitable, perhaps the entire globe plunged into a nuclear winter for decades.
The best approach is probably to make Putin's entanglement in Ukraine as costly as possible in the hope it will drag him down or force him to withdraw. Which is what the West is currently doing. Terrible for the people of Ukraine, but they would be equally dead in a WWIII scenario. Indeed a West involved in active conflict themselves might be less willing to supply armaments to Kyiv than they currently are. | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 22:22 - Mar 9 with 1174 views | Guthrum |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 19:56 - Mar 9 by jeera |
You do know regarding Syria, Iraq etc.
Location, cultural differences, the vast difference in news coverage.
Most TV channels are dedicating the majority of their programming to this.
The bias, whether we like to admit it or not, has been on show and a handful of news outlets have openly apologised for insensitive comments. You could argue it's human nature and that the reverse may well be true elsewhere in the world where nations do not feel the same connection themselves about Ukraine as we do.
It's Europe, therefore it's 'us', directly or otherwise.
We should be outraged every time a child gets bombed anywhere, I agree. But here we are. Maybe that's something else that will change in the future too.
Crimea was a funny one wasn't it, like we just resigned to the inevitable.
But there wasn't this destruction or counter fight either. |
Crimea was a little different because the locals did not fight back and the Kyiv government treated it as something of a fait accompli. That was partly because the Ukrainian military in 2014 was much weaker than it is today, but also that the peninsula had a degree of historical nor ethnographical distinction from the rest of the nation. | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 22:32 - Mar 9 with 1152 views | jeera |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:32 - Mar 9 by Guthrum |
Underground rivers flow down sinkholes from the surface and may therefore be radioactive.
If it was me, I'd announce the launch was imminent, wait until they've all gone down into their bunkers, then simply pour thick concrete over all the exits and forget where they were. |
But regular water can be stored in huge amounts and be recycled many times nonetheless.
I'm not suggesting it for myself as I say, but am going on the theory that people who design these sort of things will have this covered.
There's a lot of greenery grown underground below London in the old shelters. I hadn't quite realised the size until I looked earlier. I know only small stuff is grown there but there's no reason more items couldn't be added. Easy to grow lots of green leafy veg.
Solar power would probably not be an option if the sky was full of dust and so suddenly Lucan's 2,000 litres of oil wouldn't look enough to keep the generators going for too long, but again, I'm guessing they'd have thought have this too. Especially with it being built by an oil giant.
Not sure about the concrete plan being entirely concrete.
There's a control room there too isn't there, presumably from which it's safe for them to do their dirty deed in safety.
And no Swansea, there aren't any shark tanks from what I've read. Doesn't mean they don't exist mind. |  |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 22:36 - Mar 9 with 1147 views | jeera |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:16 - Mar 9 by Lord_Lucan |
I've thought about this (in the last few minutes) and I have decided you need sunshine to survive
Edit - and dustmen [Post edited 9 Mar 2022 20:16]
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Gotta draw straws to see who takes the rubbish out.
Bet the boss wins every time. | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 22:56 - Mar 9 with 1106 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 22:36 - Mar 9 by jeera |
Gotta draw straws to see who takes the rubbish out.
Bet the boss wins every time. |
Fk 'straws', Frimmers can do it.
He's the popular vote. | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 01:02 - Mar 10 with 1054 views | TheMoralMajority |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 16:39 - Mar 9 by Cotty |
I'm not sure they're targeting anything, they're just flattening the whole lot. Sickening. |
You see, I thought this too. But then reading Russia's history in Syria got me thinking.
Then I read this from Russian State News mouthpiece RIA Novosti: https://ria.ru/20220310/mariupol-1777388570.html
Google Translated:
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Polyansky pointed to a fake about a strike on civilians in a hospital in Mariupol
Polyansky: it is alarming that the UN is spreading a fake about a strike on civilians in Mariupol
UN, March 10 - RIA Novosti. First Deputy Representative of Russia to the UN Dmitry Polyansky on his Twitter pointed out a fake that supposedly civilians were attacked in a hospital in Mariupol.
Earlier, UN Secretary General António Guterres denounced "today's attack on a hospital in Mariupol , where the maternity and children's departments are located, " on his Twitter . The Secretary General noted that civilians pay the highest price for a war that has nothing to do with them. He called for an end to the violence. Polyansky reacted to the Secretary General's comment.
“This is how fake news is born. In our statement back on March 7, we warned that this hospital had been turned into a military facility by radicals. It is very alarming that the UN is distributing this information without verification,” Polyansky wrote.
At a meeting of the UN Security Council on March 7, Russian Permanent Representative to the UN Vasily Nebenzya said that residents of Mariupol reported that "having driven out the entire staff of maternity hospital No. 1 in Mariupol, the armed forces of Ukraine equipped a firing position in it." In addition, as the Russian permanent representative pointed out, the radicals completely destroyed one of the city's kindergartens.
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The rest of the article is general one side nonsense about the "military operation" only targeting military assets.
I now revise my view. This was very much targeted and very much from Russia's playbook. [Post edited 10 Mar 2022 1:08]
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| ...but do signatures really work? |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 07:01 - Mar 10 with 978 views | solomon |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 20:28 - Mar 9 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Sadly not true. Or at least not true in the way you think.
Unlike all western democratic societies with a nuclear capability there are no 'checks and balances' on the release of nuclear weapons in Russia, it comes down to one man, Putin, who, even with checks and balances, has spent 15 years surrounding himself with 'yes' men.
However, the release, following an order, is triggered by individual commander in a silo, submarine or mobile launch vehicle. You would hope that those individuals would have a conscience, but a large number of the Russian military are very used to simply carrying out 'orders' without any emotion.
Russia also has a system called 'dead mans hand' which is an automated launch of nuclear missiles at pre-designated targets if a nuclear blast is detected in, or rather above Moscow, designed to prevent a so called 'decapitation' attack.
Putin is unlikely to instigate a nuclear exchange, but he does want the restoration of the Soviet bloc a re-establishment of the USSR and the recommencement of the Cold War, which he finds a personal insult for Russia to be perceived to have 'lost' that. [Post edited 9 Mar 2022 20:31]
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I doubt many ordinary Russians feel they “lost” anything, quite the opposite in fact, now Putin is getting in the way of that. I stand by my feelings that he will at some point be liquidated in the good old fashioned Russian way he seems to crave. Seems rather odd that an ex KGB man thinks he’s untouchable. |  | | |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 07:52 - Mar 10 with 946 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 07:01 - Mar 10 by solomon |
I doubt many ordinary Russians feel they “lost” anything, quite the opposite in fact, now Putin is getting in the way of that. I stand by my feelings that he will at some point be liquidated in the good old fashioned Russian way he seems to crave. Seems rather odd that an ex KGB man thinks he’s untouchable. |
I don't think I mentioned ordinary Russians. 70% of which support Putin, chiefly because they believe the message they are being fed on state media.
The remaining 30% are being systematically rounded up. His inner circle are fanatical, or clearly scared of him. The best we can hope for is a moderate general slots him, but the question is, do you really think Putin, will allow any moderate to get close to him, considering this is a man who demands that anyone who comes within touching distance isolates in The Kremlin for five days before hand?
This is going to go on for some years yet. | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 08:15 - Mar 10 with 916 views | blueasfook |
I would love to punch the smug little tw@t in the face |  |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 08:24 - Mar 10 with 891 views | Churchman |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 07:52 - Mar 10 by Cheltenham_Blue |
I don't think I mentioned ordinary Russians. 70% of which support Putin, chiefly because they believe the message they are being fed on state media.
The remaining 30% are being systematically rounded up. His inner circle are fanatical, or clearly scared of him. The best we can hope for is a moderate general slots him, but the question is, do you really think Putin, will allow any moderate to get close to him, considering this is a man who demands that anyone who comes within touching distance isolates in The Kremlin for five days before hand?
This is going to go on for some years yet. |
I agree. I think this is really all about what happens after they’ve eaten Ukraine.
What does the west do? There is no chance of him being removed. He’s too powerful and crucially, there cannot be a leader of any country in the world with more support for its leader. Opposition is in real terms is very courageous but tiny. He will ensure it stays that way by trampling on any opposition. Tyrants are just as happy murdering their own people as they are others. It’s no different to any other dictatorship.
It’s nice to think the army might kill him, but I can’t see it happening. My hope is that Ukraine carries on putting up sufficient resistance long enough to make Putin pause for a little while, cruel though that is for those poor people. He will carry on to his next target, so the west needs time. A lot of it. It needs time to adjust its economies, rearm and to start seriously working together. Easier said than done given the largely sorry shower of politicians Europe has.
On a more optimistic note of the few good things the US and U.K. have done is to predict and call out Putin’s next move before he makes it. For getting the message in first this really helps diminish him in a world/ diplomatic sense. [Post edited 10 Mar 2022 8:25]
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 08:39 - Mar 10 with 886 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 08:24 - Mar 10 by Churchman |
I agree. I think this is really all about what happens after they’ve eaten Ukraine.
What does the west do? There is no chance of him being removed. He’s too powerful and crucially, there cannot be a leader of any country in the world with more support for its leader. Opposition is in real terms is very courageous but tiny. He will ensure it stays that way by trampling on any opposition. Tyrants are just as happy murdering their own people as they are others. It’s no different to any other dictatorship.
It’s nice to think the army might kill him, but I can’t see it happening. My hope is that Ukraine carries on putting up sufficient resistance long enough to make Putin pause for a little while, cruel though that is for those poor people. He will carry on to his next target, so the west needs time. A lot of it. It needs time to adjust its economies, rearm and to start seriously working together. Easier said than done given the largely sorry shower of politicians Europe has.
On a more optimistic note of the few good things the US and U.K. have done is to predict and call out Putin’s next move before he makes it. For getting the message in first this really helps diminish him in a world/ diplomatic sense. [Post edited 10 Mar 2022 8:25]
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I genuinely think we are looking at the new cold war next and the re-establishment of the Iron curtain, but this time on the borders of Ukraine, Belarus, Romania etc etc.
There is a chance he may turn his attention toward Moldova, who are not a NATO country, and to the west, will be seen as a far more acceptable 'loss' than Finland, which should Putin invade, could almost certainly make a clash with NATO imminent.
The best hope here is that Ukraine becomes Russia's new Afghanistan and requires such large troop numbers to maintain control that any further expansion becomes impossible without vastly expanded conscription which risks 'the message' being changed by those conscripts, (even soldiers tell their mothers what is going on).
The map of Europe is 100% about to be re-drawn, and with the dissolution of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, which in my opinion the US withdrew from at the behest of Putin, then we are back to a 1984 situation across all of Europe. [Post edited 10 Mar 2022 8:42]
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 09:18 - Mar 10 with 856 views | Churchman |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 08:39 - Mar 10 by Cheltenham_Blue |
I genuinely think we are looking at the new cold war next and the re-establishment of the Iron curtain, but this time on the borders of Ukraine, Belarus, Romania etc etc.
There is a chance he may turn his attention toward Moldova, who are not a NATO country, and to the west, will be seen as a far more acceptable 'loss' than Finland, which should Putin invade, could almost certainly make a clash with NATO imminent.
The best hope here is that Ukraine becomes Russia's new Afghanistan and requires such large troop numbers to maintain control that any further expansion becomes impossible without vastly expanded conscription which risks 'the message' being changed by those conscripts, (even soldiers tell their mothers what is going on).
The map of Europe is 100% about to be re-drawn, and with the dissolution of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, which in my opinion the US withdrew from at the behest of Putin, then we are back to a 1984 situation across all of Europe. [Post edited 10 Mar 2022 8:42]
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The obvious menu order is Moldova, then Finland. Non NATO countries so he knows that he will not be interfered with. To ‘protect Russia’ he could do those immediately, once Ukraine falls.
Yes, Europe is being re-drawn and a new Cold War is with us, sadly. Maybe Putin will die and it will not happen - I’ve no idea how Russia’s system works.
Your point about Ukraine is interesting. It’s a big country. I thought it would fold in a few days. Will it’s resistance continue after the main objectives are taken and Zelenski is killed / put on show-trial? I’ve no idea. It doesn’t look like Putin has much idea either, but I cannot see how using chemical weapons, thermobaric stuff and worse is going to help subdue resistance going forwards.
I know Russians view Ukrainians as potato heads, a bit like Germans view Saxons, but it’s never a good idea to discriminate against a people Nazi style. | | | |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 09:23 - Mar 10 with 850 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 01:02 - Mar 10 by TheMoralMajority |
You see, I thought this too. But then reading Russia's history in Syria got me thinking.
Then I read this from Russian State News mouthpiece RIA Novosti: https://ria.ru/20220310/mariupol-1777388570.html
Google Translated:
__________________________________
Polyansky pointed to a fake about a strike on civilians in a hospital in Mariupol
Polyansky: it is alarming that the UN is spreading a fake about a strike on civilians in Mariupol
UN, March 10 - RIA Novosti. First Deputy Representative of Russia to the UN Dmitry Polyansky on his Twitter pointed out a fake that supposedly civilians were attacked in a hospital in Mariupol.
Earlier, UN Secretary General António Guterres denounced "today's attack on a hospital in Mariupol , where the maternity and children's departments are located, " on his Twitter . The Secretary General noted that civilians pay the highest price for a war that has nothing to do with them. He called for an end to the violence. Polyansky reacted to the Secretary General's comment.
“This is how fake news is born. In our statement back on March 7, we warned that this hospital had been turned into a military facility by radicals. It is very alarming that the UN is distributing this information without verification,” Polyansky wrote.
At a meeting of the UN Security Council on March 7, Russian Permanent Representative to the UN Vasily Nebenzya said that residents of Mariupol reported that "having driven out the entire staff of maternity hospital No. 1 in Mariupol, the armed forces of Ukraine equipped a firing position in it." In addition, as the Russian permanent representative pointed out, the radicals completely destroyed one of the city's kindergartens.
__________________
The rest of the article is general one side nonsense about the "military operation" only targeting military assets.
I now revise my view. This was very much targeted and very much from Russia's playbook. [Post edited 10 Mar 2022 1:08]
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And just like in Syria, the Russians are laying the groundwork for using chemical weapons by accusing the Ukrainians of stockpiling toxins. |  |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 10:01 - Mar 10 with 815 views | BloomBlue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 09:18 - Mar 10 by Churchman |
The obvious menu order is Moldova, then Finland. Non NATO countries so he knows that he will not be interfered with. To ‘protect Russia’ he could do those immediately, once Ukraine falls.
Yes, Europe is being re-drawn and a new Cold War is with us, sadly. Maybe Putin will die and it will not happen - I’ve no idea how Russia’s system works.
Your point about Ukraine is interesting. It’s a big country. I thought it would fold in a few days. Will it’s resistance continue after the main objectives are taken and Zelenski is killed / put on show-trial? I’ve no idea. It doesn’t look like Putin has much idea either, but I cannot see how using chemical weapons, thermobaric stuff and worse is going to help subdue resistance going forwards.
I know Russians view Ukrainians as potato heads, a bit like Germans view Saxons, but it’s never a good idea to discriminate against a people Nazi style. |
Chemical weapons is just part of the weaponry he will use , ie if he kills enough Ukrainians eventually the few who remain will surrender.
Similar to the blitz in WWII, it was designed to break the Country's morale but did the opposite I think the same with Ukraine
However if he does use chemical weapons what will the West do them, as previously chemical weapons have been a red line |  | | |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 10:11 - Mar 10 with 791 views | Churchman |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 10:01 - Mar 10 by BloomBlue |
Chemical weapons is just part of the weaponry he will use , ie if he kills enough Ukrainians eventually the few who remain will surrender.
Similar to the blitz in WWII, it was designed to break the Country's morale but did the opposite I think the same with Ukraine
However if he does use chemical weapons what will the West do them, as previously chemical weapons have been a red line |
He has teed it up by saying Ukraine was developing nuclear/chemical weapons. They’ll get the blame and the likes of China will hang on that to tacitly support Russia or prevent intervention. That’s my guess anyway.
As for breaking morale, it failed here in 1940 and actually in Germany 1943-45 too. It was one of stated aims of Arthur Harris and the only one, in my view, that was unsuccessful. The closest the RAF came to doing it was Hamburg in 1943. | | | |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 12:13 - Mar 10 with 745 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 10:01 - Mar 10 by BloomBlue |
Chemical weapons is just part of the weaponry he will use , ie if he kills enough Ukrainians eventually the few who remain will surrender.
Similar to the blitz in WWII, it was designed to break the Country's morale but did the opposite I think the same with Ukraine
However if he does use chemical weapons what will the West do them, as previously chemical weapons have been a red line |
Nothing, except potential further sanctions.
No offence you you, but I really don’t know how often it needs to be said, we, (NATO), will not act beyond sanctions. Unless there is an attack on a NATO member, there is no ‘red line’ | |
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| Targeting hospitals now? on 12:34 - Mar 10 with 720 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Targeting hospitals now? on 10:11 - Mar 10 by Churchman |
He has teed it up by saying Ukraine was developing nuclear/chemical weapons. They’ll get the blame and the likes of China will hang on that to tacitly support Russia or prevent intervention. That’s my guess anyway.
As for breaking morale, it failed here in 1940 and actually in Germany 1943-45 too. It was one of stated aims of Arthur Harris and the only one, in my view, that was unsuccessful. The closest the RAF came to doing it was Hamburg in 1943. |
That was indiscriminate bombing. The 'new and improved' tactic of bombing hospitals and utilities has been shown to break the morale of populations in Syria.
Read the investigation on the destruction of Aleppo I linked in an earlier post.
The Russians believe they have a winning formula with this plan 'B' so they will pursue the tactic to the barbaric end. |  | | |
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