| Andre Dozzell 11:42 - Aug 23 with 5670 views | Churchman |
Thinking about youth players and how we perceive them, I had a look at views on Andre Dozzell on the QPR site.
When he left he was one of the few players with any value. Sadly, not the value he first showed when he broke through at ITFC, I thought he looked tremendous until his injury.
He made 22 appearances no goals last season for QPR and two this plus three as sub. Their view of him, when you can find one is very marmite - excellent or rubbish, nothing in between.
Obviously Downes has raced ahead, but then he always looked a good bet for a top level career. Dozzell? At 23 it looks like Championship level for him from what I’ve read.
This is not a leading question, but the hue and cry over Simpson in particular, do we over rate our yoof players? |  | | |  |
| Andre Dozzell on 11:44 - Aug 23 with 4073 views | J2BLUE |
Definitely. Every club does. That's not to say we don't produce some gems like Downes but generally, we definitely overrate academy products. I think most fans would much rather see an academy graduate come through and establish themselves than go and sign someone for a big fee. |  |
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| Andre Dozzell on 11:46 - Aug 23 with 4041 views | MattinLondon |
Think that there’s a certain romance that most fans associate with youth players- especially if they are local to the area. Maybe that leads us to over rate them as we really want them to succeed with some of their faults not being highlighted as much if they were a few years older and from another club.
To a lesser extent young English players are also overrated when compared to overseas players. |  | | |
| Andre Dozzell on 11:46 - Aug 23 with 4041 views | Vic |
Evidence suggests that the simple answer is Yes we do! There will always be exceptions, but very, very few of our own version of ‘the golden generation’ of a few years back have really gone on to do much have they. Several continue to have decent careers at Lg 1 level, a couple like Rhodes and Marriott have flared hot for a season or two, but even they have drifted back into mediocrity. |  |
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| Andre Dozzell on 11:46 - Aug 23 with 4011 views | FrimleyBlue |
Problem is our side has been quite rubbish for nearly 20 years. So when a youngster comes in.. they don't look out of place. But to someone like a KM and how specific he is. It might become harder for youngsters to come through unless they really show they are equal and above what else we already have. |  |
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| Andre Dozzell on 11:47 - Aug 23 with 4024 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
I think every team over rates their youth players tbh. But we do have some very good ones.
Andre was very highly rated here and with England. My mate who supports QPR says he's clearly a great passer but in terms of impacting a game, is pretty useless and goes missing far too often.
Liam Gibbs is doing well at Norwich.
Downes did well at Swansea, now in the prem.
Our hit rate is pretty good i reckon. |  |
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| Andre Dozzell on 11:50 - Aug 23 with 3964 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Andre Dozzell on 11:47 - Aug 23 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
I think every team over rates their youth players tbh. But we do have some very good ones.
Andre was very highly rated here and with England. My mate who supports QPR says he's clearly a great passer but in terms of impacting a game, is pretty useless and goes missing far too often.
Liam Gibbs is doing well at Norwich.
Downes did well at Swansea, now in the prem.
Our hit rate is pretty good i reckon. |
Heres a question. Is league 1 the worst league to be in for blooding youngsters
Most games are battles. Tall. Tough players. Have many clubs chasing league 1 promotion given much time to youngsters? | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 11:50 - Aug 23 with 3981 views | jayessess |
I think the main tendency is to overrate youth players when they aren't playing for the first team, then underrate them when they become regulars.
When Dozzell was injured or managers didn't fancy him, he was a world beater. When he played regularly for us for the first time in 2020-21, he got dog's abuse (compounded by his surname, rather than alleviated by it as is often imagined) despite being one of the more effective performers in a dysfunctional team. People were pretty quick to turn against Woolfenden when his form dipped too.
One other thing. Despite our first team's average age being 28 and most of our best players being 25+ there's absolutely zero patience and trust shown to academy grads beyond 21. We wouldn't have wanted Edmundson, Morsy, Chaplin as first teamers when they were 21, so why should it surprise us if our youth take longer to kick on?
[Post edited 23 Aug 2022 11:59]
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| Andre Dozzell on 11:57 - Aug 23 with 3838 views | Churchman |
| Andre Dozzell on 11:44 - Aug 23 by J2BLUE |
Definitely. Every club does. That's not to say we don't produce some gems like Downes but generally, we definitely overrate academy products. I think most fans would much rather see an academy graduate come through and establish themselves than go and sign someone for a big fee. |
I’d prefer academy players to come through, establish themselves and form the basis of a great team for years as happened in Robson’s time and of course Man U Beckham era. But that’s really rare.
Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City are producing a few, thanks to their hoovering system and a structure designed to benefit them only, but most don’t make the grade or wind up at Milton Keynes etc if they’re really lucky. Spurs had a few over the years I suppose.
The great Forest team though was mostly misfits, a great goalkeeper and brilliant wheeling and dealing by Clough and Taylor. Ramsey’s Champions the same.
West Ham had a few in the 60s of course and the reputation to go with it, but bar Mark Noble (smashing player), I’m not aware of too many academy players making the grade there in recent years.
So, we win the yoof cup in 2005 and what did we get from it, player wise? Not a lot. Garvan for a while and that was about it. It’s an interesting debate. | | | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:01 - Aug 23 with 3797 views | itfcjoe |
I think maybe some fans underrate how good the academy is in some regards as well - those 98-2000 year group with Dozzell in has been a huge success.
When talk is 1% of boys make it, reality is it's more like 15%, but to still be a pro at 21 is a real achievement
Keepers - Nick Hayes and Harry Wright - both still contracted to league one clubs
Defenders - Luke Woolfenden.
Ross Marshall - played a fair bit of legaue football for Stevenage, currently at National League Torquay
Chris Smith - still playing National league football alongside undergrad degree at Loughborough
Corrie Ndaba
Midfielders - Dozzell, £1m fee and playing regular Champ football
Downes - £12m move to PL West Ham
Nydam - sadly retired through injury
Brett McGavin - still playing professionally in National league at Torquay
Attackers - Charlie Brown - long spell at Chelsea, currently at Cheltenham
Ben Morris - horrible injury luck but still a professional here
Ben Folami - playing for Melbourne Victory and knocking on door of Socceroos squad
Jack Lankester - Playing at Cambridge in League 1
Conor McKendry - 2 years left on deal at Coleraine in Northern Ireland Premier league |  |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:02 - Aug 23 with 3761 views | jayessess |
| Andre Dozzell on 11:57 - Aug 23 by Churchman |
I’d prefer academy players to come through, establish themselves and form the basis of a great team for years as happened in Robson’s time and of course Man U Beckham era. But that’s really rare.
Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City are producing a few, thanks to their hoovering system and a structure designed to benefit them only, but most don’t make the grade or wind up at Milton Keynes etc if they’re really lucky. Spurs had a few over the years I suppose.
The great Forest team though was mostly misfits, a great goalkeeper and brilliant wheeling and dealing by Clough and Taylor. Ramsey’s Champions the same.
West Ham had a few in the 60s of course and the reputation to go with it, but bar Mark Noble (smashing player), I’m not aware of too many academy players making the grade there in recent years.
So, we win the yoof cup in 2005 and what did we get from it, player wise? Not a lot. Garvan for a while and that was about it. It’s an interesting debate. |
Our defeated opponents did OK out of it - Walcott, Lallana and Bale (David McGoldrick too!) | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:11 - Aug 23 with 3661 views | Illinoisblue |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:01 - Aug 23 by itfcjoe |
I think maybe some fans underrate how good the academy is in some regards as well - those 98-2000 year group with Dozzell in has been a huge success.
When talk is 1% of boys make it, reality is it's more like 15%, but to still be a pro at 21 is a real achievement
Keepers - Nick Hayes and Harry Wright - both still contracted to league one clubs
Defenders - Luke Woolfenden.
Ross Marshall - played a fair bit of legaue football for Stevenage, currently at National League Torquay
Chris Smith - still playing National league football alongside undergrad degree at Loughborough
Corrie Ndaba
Midfielders - Dozzell, £1m fee and playing regular Champ football
Downes - £12m move to PL West Ham
Nydam - sadly retired through injury
Brett McGavin - still playing professionally in National league at Torquay
Attackers - Charlie Brown - long spell at Chelsea, currently at Cheltenham
Ben Morris - horrible injury luck but still a professional here
Ben Folami - playing for Melbourne Victory and knocking on door of Socceroos squad
Jack Lankester - Playing at Cambridge in League 1
Conor McKendry - 2 years left on deal at Coleraine in Northern Ireland Premier league |
Was Matt Clarke one of ours too?
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:17 - Aug 23 with 3613 views | jayessess |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:01 - Aug 23 by itfcjoe |
I think maybe some fans underrate how good the academy is in some regards as well - those 98-2000 year group with Dozzell in has been a huge success.
When talk is 1% of boys make it, reality is it's more like 15%, but to still be a pro at 21 is a real achievement
Keepers - Nick Hayes and Harry Wright - both still contracted to league one clubs
Defenders - Luke Woolfenden.
Ross Marshall - played a fair bit of legaue football for Stevenage, currently at National League Torquay
Chris Smith - still playing National league football alongside undergrad degree at Loughborough
Corrie Ndaba
Midfielders - Dozzell, £1m fee and playing regular Champ football
Downes - £12m move to PL West Ham
Nydam - sadly retired through injury
Brett McGavin - still playing professionally in National league at Torquay
Attackers - Charlie Brown - long spell at Chelsea, currently at Cheltenham
Ben Morris - horrible injury luck but still a professional here
Ben Folami - playing for Melbourne Victory and knocking on door of Socceroos squad
Jack Lankester - Playing at Cambridge in League 1
Conor McKendry - 2 years left on deal at Coleraine in Northern Ireland Premier league |
Is the 1% for any kid that joins a pro club's youth team (ie. U12s etc.) and the 15% for older kids? (ie. If you're still there at 17?) | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:25 - Aug 23 with 3520 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Making it to be a Championship level player is a huge achievement, and still a success as far as the academy is concerned. |  |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:28 - Aug 23 with 3480 views | FoghornGleghorn |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:02 - Aug 23 by jayessess |
Our defeated opponents did OK out of it - Walcott, Lallana and Bale (David McGoldrick too!) |
Don't forget Leon Best!
Actually do. Do forget Leon Best. Always forget Leon Best. |  | | |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:29 - Aug 23 with 3448 views | itfcjoe |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:11 - Aug 23 by Illinoisblue |
Was Matt Clarke one of ours too?
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He was but a year or too older (like Bishop, Kenlock and Emmanuel who are all having decent pro careers) | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:31 - Aug 23 with 3414 views | itfcjoe |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:17 - Aug 23 by jayessess |
Is the 1% for any kid that joins a pro club's youth team (ie. U12s etc.) and the 15% for older kids? (ie. If you're still there at 17?) |
I think they talk of that number as 0.00012% or something.
The talk is 1% of boys in an academy to go to first team which doesn't pass the smell check
15% seems more realistic to turn pro and still be one at 21 but probably with a sharp drop off from there | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:42 - Aug 23 with 3300 views | jayessess |
Incidentally - on over/underrating ...
You have a team that's poor offensively but pretty good defensively (4th best in the league). In that team is a defensive midfielder who's virtually ever present, he's near the top of the list for tackles, interceptions, clearances, he's our best player for chances created, expected assists, crosses and passes. Their main competition for best player is a centre back who played 17 matches.
Not a doubt in my mind that if that DM is a player we've signed, rather than a player who'd been over-hyped coming through the academy, they get Player of the Season. | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 12:43 - Aug 23 with 3283 views | timothyeo |
I would agree all clubs fans overrate their own youth products.
Dozzell isn't really an example of that because many didn't even want him in our League One side yet a Championship side bought him and played him. Downes is a Premier Leauge player. Gibbs likely will be next season.
Considering we're not Cat 1 we've done well with our academy and youth setup but not taken advantage of it with the first team, which is a real shame. | | | |
| Andre Dozzell on 13:16 - Aug 23 with 3008 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:01 - Aug 23 by itfcjoe |
I think maybe some fans underrate how good the academy is in some regards as well - those 98-2000 year group with Dozzell in has been a huge success.
When talk is 1% of boys make it, reality is it's more like 15%, but to still be a pro at 21 is a real achievement
Keepers - Nick Hayes and Harry Wright - both still contracted to league one clubs
Defenders - Luke Woolfenden.
Ross Marshall - played a fair bit of legaue football for Stevenage, currently at National League Torquay
Chris Smith - still playing National league football alongside undergrad degree at Loughborough
Corrie Ndaba
Midfielders - Dozzell, £1m fee and playing regular Champ football
Downes - £12m move to PL West Ham
Nydam - sadly retired through injury
Brett McGavin - still playing professionally in National league at Torquay
Attackers - Charlie Brown - long spell at Chelsea, currently at Cheltenham
Ben Morris - horrible injury luck but still a professional here
Ben Folami - playing for Melbourne Victory and knocking on door of Socceroos squad
Jack Lankester - Playing at Cambridge in League 1
Conor McKendry - 2 years left on deal at Coleraine in Northern Ireland Premier league |
Plus Ben Knight and Marcelo Flores. | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 13:21 - Aug 23 with 2971 views | Churchman |
| Andre Dozzell on 11:47 - Aug 23 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
I think every team over rates their youth players tbh. But we do have some very good ones.
Andre was very highly rated here and with England. My mate who supports QPR says he's clearly a great passer but in terms of impacting a game, is pretty useless and goes missing far too often.
Liam Gibbs is doing well at Norwich.
Downes did well at Swansea, now in the prem.
Our hit rate is pretty good i reckon. |
Interesting view by Moyes on young players and Downes in particular:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/west-ham-boss-david-m
I quote:
‘The things I’ve seen of him, he needs to do better and we’re already [working at that] but we’ll get him a game when we can. All the players have to earn it and I have to find a way of winning most of the games.’
“If it takes me putting the better players out to win, well I want to win. I’m not putting the boys out just to lose and say ‘I’m giving them a game.’ I want to win the games.”
Personally, I think Moyes is right in this approach. It’s up to players to work at making the grade, whether they are youth players or brought in. | | | |
| Andre Dozzell on 13:22 - Aug 23 with 2966 views | clive_baker |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:01 - Aug 23 by itfcjoe |
I think maybe some fans underrate how good the academy is in some regards as well - those 98-2000 year group with Dozzell in has been a huge success.
When talk is 1% of boys make it, reality is it's more like 15%, but to still be a pro at 21 is a real achievement
Keepers - Nick Hayes and Harry Wright - both still contracted to league one clubs
Defenders - Luke Woolfenden.
Ross Marshall - played a fair bit of legaue football for Stevenage, currently at National League Torquay
Chris Smith - still playing National league football alongside undergrad degree at Loughborough
Corrie Ndaba
Midfielders - Dozzell, £1m fee and playing regular Champ football
Downes - £12m move to PL West Ham
Nydam - sadly retired through injury
Brett McGavin - still playing professionally in National league at Torquay
Attackers - Charlie Brown - long spell at Chelsea, currently at Cheltenham
Ben Morris - horrible injury luck but still a professional here
Ben Folami - playing for Melbourne Victory and knocking on door of Socceroos squad
Jack Lankester - Playing at Cambridge in League 1
Conor McKendry - 2 years left on deal at Coleraine in Northern Ireland Premier league |
I think when people talk about 1% of academy players making it they're referring to people to have ever been in an academy, which doesn't feel unreasonable.
It's certainly a much higher % if you're taking the snap at 16 years old, but by the time a team gets to u16 / u17 it's already seen a significant amount of churn. |  |
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| Andre Dozzell on 13:22 - Aug 23 with 2953 views | markchips |
| Andre Dozzell on 11:47 - Aug 23 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
I think every team over rates their youth players tbh. But we do have some very good ones.
Andre was very highly rated here and with England. My mate who supports QPR says he's clearly a great passer but in terms of impacting a game, is pretty useless and goes missing far too often.
Liam Gibbs is doing well at Norwich.
Downes did well at Swansea, now in the prem.
Our hit rate is pretty good i reckon. |
I think we did really well to get £1M. I don't think he will ever amount to much . Downes was the more combatative one and at lease we covered ourselves with add ons. | | | |
| Andre Dozzell on 13:36 - Aug 23 with 2870 views | itfcjoe |
| Andre Dozzell on 13:22 - Aug 23 by clive_baker |
I think when people talk about 1% of academy players making it they're referring to people to have ever been in an academy, which doesn't feel unreasonable.
It's certainly a much higher % if you're taking the snap at 16 years old, but by the time a team gets to u16 / u17 it's already seen a significant amount of churn. |
I think 6 or 7 of those were in academy from U9s though - to get down to 1% you are talking 600 boys not making it so doesn't stack up for me.
I think the real headline figures are those which will include PDCs and the like - those who mkae the elite academy squads have better than 1% chance of making it pro but just so many different ways to measure it to prove anything | |
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| Andre Dozzell on 13:38 - Aug 23 with 2854 views | Radlett_blue |
| Andre Dozzell on 13:21 - Aug 23 by Churchman |
Interesting view by Moyes on young players and Downes in particular:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/west-ham-boss-david-m
I quote:
‘The things I’ve seen of him, he needs to do better and we’re already [working at that] but we’ll get him a game when we can. All the players have to earn it and I have to find a way of winning most of the games.’
“If it takes me putting the better players out to win, well I want to win. I’m not putting the boys out just to lose and say ‘I’m giving them a game.’ I want to win the games.”
Personally, I think Moyes is right in this approach. It’s up to players to work at making the grade, whether they are youth players or brought in. |
Exactly this. When almost every manager is under such short term pressure to produce results, he won't give a youngster a run of games to help him develop as he might then be out of a job. McKenna knows he has to finish in the top 6 this season as a minimum or else he's likely to lose his job & damage his career. So no wonder our promising youngsters are being loaned out. We often complain that they aren't getting enough games when on loan, but the manager of that club is also under pressure to get results. I don't recall us ditching too many young players & regretting it hugely - Rhodes, Conor Hourihane (whom we didn't produce but had as a 19 year old). |  |
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| Budgie. (n/t) on 13:52 - Aug 23 with 2793 views | Bloots |
| Andre Dozzell on 12:43 - Aug 23 by timothyeo |
I would agree all clubs fans overrate their own youth products.
Dozzell isn't really an example of that because many didn't even want him in our League One side yet a Championship side bought him and played him. Downes is a Premier Leauge player. Gibbs likely will be next season.
Considering we're not Cat 1 we've done well with our academy and youth setup but not taken advantage of it with the first team, which is a real shame. |
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