| Does anyone still think…. 16:46 - Nov 17 with 6141 views | chicoazul |
…the Tory party are right wing?
Not good or bad or whatever in between; right wing specifically. |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 02:14 - Nov 18 with 1103 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Does anyone still think…. on 01:30 - Nov 18 by XYZ |
Coincidentally Kate Andrews was on QT again tonight.
The UK is asleep at the wheel. |
Isn't it weird how Kate Andrews doesn't have a Wikipedia page, when she appears on BBC Question Time so regularly?
And how "Kate Andrews American" throws up so few pages on a Google search, and doesn't answer the obvious question?
https://www.google.com/search?q=kate+andrews+american&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB925
Particularly odd since she posts stuff like this about the NHS:
Almost like she wants the NHS to fail so that its emaciated remains can be picked over by US Vulture Capitalists... |  | | |
| Does anyone still think…. on 04:13 - Nov 18 with 1087 views | Kropotkin123 |
The right-wing are characterized by "notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction and nationalism"
Brexit over economic stability is about notions nationalism. The nation-state over a cooperative economic collective. Note that both the nation-state and the EU are capitalist institutions and are both inherently right-wing.
Liz Truss's economic policy was from the right-wing. Order, hierarchy, duty all play into the top-down economic theories of the right to distribute wealth amongst the nation.
The furlough system was a left-wing policy. Though one-nation conservatives could claim that within their theories.
The UK's immigration policies are dominated by the right-wing. Even when labour were in power our immigration rhetoric and policies were about people fitting into a clear national identity, with tests on Britishness. Though it is worth noting that the most extremes the economically far right and the socially far left converge on no border. A belief in no nation-state and therefore border on the left and the free movement of human labour on the right.
Policing is a hybrid. Criminality that comes from right-wing economic policies, such as those that led to the financial crisis went largely unpunished. On the one hand the nation-bailed them out, but on the other hand the failing right-wing policies were propped up. We failed to deal with the inequalities within the system and repackaged it so very few people would continue to get rich. At this point it is hard for me to say it is entirely right-wing. It feels more Kleptocratic rather than democratic. But anyway, corporate stealing is largely not punished, where as something like an individual stealing is punished. There is more focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment, which is less about duty and order, and therefore a left-wing policy. Like I say hybrid, but certainly supporting the economic right-wing.
Universal healthcare is left-wing. But the chronic underfunding to promote paid alternatives is a unstated policy of the right.
For universal education, see universal healthcare.
key public services are privatised and remain a right wing policy on both the right and left.
Not sure what I'm missing now, but yeah, the current Tory party are measurably right wing. I guess what we do see though is a departure from the right wing in terms of conserving the order and duty side. So the current crop of right wing politicians will act in the capital interest of themselves rather than the nation. We touched on this in banking, but we can see it in taking donations and giving kickbacks (house building scandal, Covid app, etc), we can see it in populists prioritizing themselves over the democratic institutions (shutting down parliament, partygate, etc), and so on. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 4:14]
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| Does anyone still think…. on 06:39 - Nov 18 with 1057 views | lowhouseblue |
i'm sure we've been told that they are practically fascists. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 07:40 - Nov 18 with 1021 views | chicoazul |
| Does anyone still think…. on 01:17 - Nov 18 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Immigration (which they want to make the main talking point): RIGHT WING
And specifically the Rwanda Scheme: RIGHT WING AND IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
Stealth Privatisation of the NHS: RIGHT WING (agency nurses being the latest wheeze)
Brexit and Deregulation: RIGHT WING/BORDERLINE TOTALITARIAN DEPENDING ON THE ENDGAME FOR HUMAN AND EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS
Loading of the BBC Board: RIGHT WING
Marginalisation of Parliament: RIGHT WING/TOTLAITARIAN (I can give examples)
Removal of Judicial oversight of Ministerial Edicts: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
Removal of basic rights to protest: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
Placing of the previously independent Electoral Commission under direct Ministerial Control: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
I'll pause there... |
This is largely wrong I’m afraid.
People still think Brexit is inherently right wing. Good luck telling for eg Mick Lynch he is right wing.
Privatisation is neoliberalism not right wing.
Nobody has lost the right to protest.
In many of your examples you conflate right wing with totalitarian so my friend I have some bad news for you about the history of the 20th century. | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 07:51 - Nov 18 with 999 views | chicoazul |
| Does anyone still think…. on 04:13 - Nov 18 by Kropotkin123 |
The right-wing are characterized by "notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction and nationalism"
Brexit over economic stability is about notions nationalism. The nation-state over a cooperative economic collective. Note that both the nation-state and the EU are capitalist institutions and are both inherently right-wing.
Liz Truss's economic policy was from the right-wing. Order, hierarchy, duty all play into the top-down economic theories of the right to distribute wealth amongst the nation.
The furlough system was a left-wing policy. Though one-nation conservatives could claim that within their theories.
The UK's immigration policies are dominated by the right-wing. Even when labour were in power our immigration rhetoric and policies were about people fitting into a clear national identity, with tests on Britishness. Though it is worth noting that the most extremes the economically far right and the socially far left converge on no border. A belief in no nation-state and therefore border on the left and the free movement of human labour on the right.
Policing is a hybrid. Criminality that comes from right-wing economic policies, such as those that led to the financial crisis went largely unpunished. On the one hand the nation-bailed them out, but on the other hand the failing right-wing policies were propped up. We failed to deal with the inequalities within the system and repackaged it so very few people would continue to get rich. At this point it is hard for me to say it is entirely right-wing. It feels more Kleptocratic rather than democratic. But anyway, corporate stealing is largely not punished, where as something like an individual stealing is punished. There is more focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment, which is less about duty and order, and therefore a left-wing policy. Like I say hybrid, but certainly supporting the economic right-wing.
Universal healthcare is left-wing. But the chronic underfunding to promote paid alternatives is a unstated policy of the right.
For universal education, see universal healthcare.
key public services are privatised and remain a right wing policy on both the right and left.
Not sure what I'm missing now, but yeah, the current Tory party are measurably right wing. I guess what we do see though is a departure from the right wing in terms of conserving the order and duty side. So the current crop of right wing politicians will act in the capital interest of themselves rather than the nation. We touched on this in banking, but we can see it in taking donations and giving kickbacks (house building scandal, Covid app, etc), we can see it in populists prioritizing themselves over the democratic institutions (shutting down parliament, partygate, etc), and so on. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 4:14]
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This is a good interesting post thank you for making it. I’m a bit busy today but I’ll be back later to pick the bones out of it! | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 07:52 - Nov 18 with 996 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 01:17 - Nov 18 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Immigration (which they want to make the main talking point): RIGHT WING
And specifically the Rwanda Scheme: RIGHT WING AND IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
Stealth Privatisation of the NHS: RIGHT WING (agency nurses being the latest wheeze)
Brexit and Deregulation: RIGHT WING/BORDERLINE TOTALITARIAN DEPENDING ON THE ENDGAME FOR HUMAN AND EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS
Loading of the BBC Board: RIGHT WING
Marginalisation of Parliament: RIGHT WING/TOTLAITARIAN (I can give examples)
Removal of Judicial oversight of Ministerial Edicts: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
Removal of basic rights to protest: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
Placing of the previously independent Electoral Commission under direct Ministerial Control: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
I'll pause there... |
Removal of basic rights to protest.
Castro, Stalin, Chavez, Mao etc were right wing? |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 07:59 - Nov 18 with 986 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 07:40 - Nov 18 by chicoazul |
This is largely wrong I’m afraid.
People still think Brexit is inherently right wing. Good luck telling for eg Mick Lynch he is right wing.
Privatisation is neoliberalism not right wing.
Nobody has lost the right to protest.
In many of your examples you conflate right wing with totalitarian so my friend I have some bad news for you about the history of the 20th century. |
Mick Lynch and those awful righties Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Jeremy Corbyn and Denis Skinner. | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:02 - Nov 18 with 981 views | chicoazul |
| Does anyone still think…. on 07:59 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Mick Lynch and those awful righties Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Jeremy Corbyn and Denis Skinner. |
Lots of confusion over neoliberalism and right wing ITT. | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:05 - Nov 18 with 981 views | DanTheMan |
| Does anyone still think…. on 07:52 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Removal of basic rights to protest.
Castro, Stalin, Chavez, Mao etc were right wing? |
And herein lies the problem of trying to describe complex political theories with a basic "left and right" axis. It doesn't work.
Removal of rights is authoritarian and is not solely owned by either left or right wing.
On topic, would I consider the Conservative party right wing? Yes, but whether other people do entirely depends on their definition of what right wing is. I imagine if we asked everyone they'd have very different opinions. |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:11 - Nov 18 with 962 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 07:52 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Removal of basic rights to protest.
Castro, Stalin, Chavez, Mao etc were right wing? |
He did say “right wing/totalitarian” and suppression of dissent is a feature of any totalitarian regime, so yes of course there are some similarities (although obviously our famously Communist Tory Party hasn’t quite gone as far as those 4). |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:14 - Nov 18 with 957 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 08:11 - Nov 18 by Swansea_Blue |
He did say “right wing/totalitarian” and suppression of dissent is a feature of any totalitarian regime, so yes of course there are some similarities (although obviously our famously Communist Tory Party hasn’t quite gone as far as those 4). |
But the idea was to prove that the Tories were ‘right wing’. Given examples of things that both the right and left indulge in does defeat the object. | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:14 - Nov 18 with 956 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 08:05 - Nov 18 by DanTheMan |
And herein lies the problem of trying to describe complex political theories with a basic "left and right" axis. It doesn't work.
Removal of rights is authoritarian and is not solely owned by either left or right wing.
On topic, would I consider the Conservative party right wing? Yes, but whether other people do entirely depends on their definition of what right wing is. I imagine if we asked everyone they'd have very different opinions. |
I find myself agreeing with you too much these days Dan. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 8:15]
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:16 - Nov 18 with 943 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 08:02 - Nov 18 by chicoazul |
Lots of confusion over neoliberalism and right wing ITT. |
I’m reminded of what Hayek had to say about the fight between Marxism and Fascism in the Road to Serfdom. | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:23 - Nov 18 with 937 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Does anyone still think…. on 02:14 - Nov 18 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Isn't it weird how Kate Andrews doesn't have a Wikipedia page, when she appears on BBC Question Time so regularly?
And how "Kate Andrews American" throws up so few pages on a Google search, and doesn't answer the obvious question?
https://www.google.com/search?q=kate+andrews+american&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB925
Particularly odd since she posts stuff like this about the NHS:
Almost like she wants the NHS to fail so that its emaciated remains can be picked over by US Vulture Capitalists... |
I found it interesting how she picked up on "paying the price for furlough and Putin" much like they all do really and yet QE for bankers etc seems to have had no negative consequences whatsoever! |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:51 - Nov 18 with 921 views | DJR |
| Does anyone still think…. on 01:17 - Nov 18 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Immigration (which they want to make the main talking point): RIGHT WING
And specifically the Rwanda Scheme: RIGHT WING AND IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
Stealth Privatisation of the NHS: RIGHT WING (agency nurses being the latest wheeze)
Brexit and Deregulation: RIGHT WING/BORDERLINE TOTALITARIAN DEPENDING ON THE ENDGAME FOR HUMAN AND EMPLOYMENT RIGHTS
Loading of the BBC Board: RIGHT WING
Marginalisation of Parliament: RIGHT WING/TOTLAITARIAN (I can give examples)
Removal of Judicial oversight of Ministerial Edicts: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
Removal of basic rights to protest: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
Placing of the previously independent Electoral Commission under direct Ministerial Control: RIGHT WING/TOTALITARIAN
I'll pause there... |
I think a good description for some of these things is illiberal.
There has been an increasing illiberalism in the Tory Party which may well date to the Brexit vote. Social liberalism was a key feature of the Cameron government, but I couldn't imagine, for example, the current Tory Party voting for, say, same-sex marriage if it wasn't already on the statute book because to do so would be regarded as woke. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 8:53]
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| Does anyone still think…. on 08:58 - Nov 18 with 910 views | Guthrum |
| Does anyone still think…. on 00:54 - Nov 18 by XYZ |
No value comment? Do you agree with them or denounce them?
Are you just stoking the fire?
There's a pattern here. |
Glassers may be (or may have been) somewhat Tory, but he's not that kind of right winger. |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 09:18 - Nov 18 with 903 views | DJR |
| Does anyone still think…. on 22:40 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Not according to right wingers
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Perhaps this just proves that both parties are currently what once might have been called One Nation Tories, but this clearly angers those on the right of Tory Party. [Post edited 18 Nov 2022 9:19]
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| Does anyone still think…. on 09:26 - Nov 18 with 895 views | Churchman |
| Does anyone still think…. on 08:05 - Nov 18 by DanTheMan |
And herein lies the problem of trying to describe complex political theories with a basic "left and right" axis. It doesn't work.
Removal of rights is authoritarian and is not solely owned by either left or right wing.
On topic, would I consider the Conservative party right wing? Yes, but whether other people do entirely depends on their definition of what right wing is. I imagine if we asked everyone they'd have very different opinions. |
Agree with this. It’s all about perceptions. My perception is that those at the top of the Tory party are broadly right wing.
In how they come across, they appear to be wedded to outmoded trickle down economics, a Victorian view that if you are poor you deserve to be. Just work harder, get a second job etc. They are convinced that the public sector is a complete waste of time and to quote Maude, there is nothing the public sector can do that the private sector cannot do cheaper, quicker and more efficiently.
They believe in the class system, privilege and in their right to rule. There is no belief in the principle of equal opportunity. People should know their place. They are certain in their arrogance they are right, which explains their disdain for experts and how Truss and Kwarteng managed to crash the economy in under two months.
Like all politicians, the tories love a porkie because the think the plebs are too stupid to understand the truth. A classic is Hunt on the BBC this morning. There can’t be a return to the single market because that’s not what people voted for with Brexit is basically what he said. Utter nonsense. It’s the tories that have defined the horror that is Brexit, not the people in an advisory vote six years ago based on lies and misinformation.
The truth is that if the EU wanted this deadbeat country in it, we cannot re-enter the single market because it’ll destroy the Tory party. Economics and peoples welfare has nothing to do with it.
If right wing is defined as intolerance, ignorance, failure to learn, selfishness, greed, lies and deceit, then this government ticks all the boxes in my view. |  | | |
| Does anyone still think…. on 09:27 - Nov 18 with 896 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 17:13 - Nov 17 by BlueBadger |
What is it you like best about the Tories? The open bigotry? The corruption? The crashing of the economy 3 times in the last decade? The criminality? The fact that you'll be Footersing the bill for all of the above? |
Think he likes their ability, despite their ineptness, to win elections. In truth they have only managed that with the aid of a clueless opposition. |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 09:54 - Nov 18 with 875 views | giant_stow |
| Does anyone still think…. on 07:40 - Nov 18 by chicoazul |
This is largely wrong I’m afraid.
People still think Brexit is inherently right wing. Good luck telling for eg Mick Lynch he is right wing.
Privatisation is neoliberalism not right wing.
Nobody has lost the right to protest.
In many of your examples you conflate right wing with totalitarian so my friend I have some bad news for you about the history of the 20th century. |
Mick Lynch certainly seems to believe he's left wing and I guess he is in traditional terms. But I wonder what would happen if anyone ever asked his tube driving members to take a pay cut for the benefit of Londons working poor using the tube.
Grr. Don't mind me - I always get angsty when someone mentions the RMT. |  |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 09:58 - Nov 18 with 875 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Does anyone still think…. on 07:52 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Removal of basic rights to protest.
Castro, Stalin, Chavez, Mao etc were right wing? |
In conjunction with everything else, it is a totalitarian policy propping up a Right Wing cabal, yes.
The point is "Funny Boris and Sensible Rishi" are not Centrists. Brexit, as envisioned by the people who are making an attempt at enacting it, was economically a Right Wing idea, because they wanted to remove EU oversight of their capital, had aspirations for widespread deregulation, wanted to enact loads of free trade deals all around the world, and set up Freeports.
All of those are economically Right Wing ideas.
Some of them also had a stated aim of removing the oversight of the ECHR. You can argue about whether that is a right wing policy, but it is definitely not a broad consensus, Social Democratic or One Nation Tory idea. It was wrapped up in a Union Jack by eg Patel, and so is definitely a Nationalist idea. And it will have the effect of removing Workers protections, like the European Working Hours Directive, which is a corporatist move.
This narrative that Sensible Rishi is a centrist is absolute bobbins. The implications of the Court and Sentencing Bill are so serious that it is disappointing that you want to split hairs on semantics rather than focus on the bigger picture.
There have been many moves over the past 5 years to centralise power in the hands of the Executive, eliminate protest, politicise the Police and create a corporatist Singapore on Thames, all wrapped up in anti-immigration rhetoric and with immaculately folded Union Flags ever present behind the podium.
A few tax increases don't make this lot Centrists. They are Extreme Right on many things.
I remember when the Tories were seen as the party of small business. It might have been true in the days of the greengrocers daughter from Grantham, but this lot don't care about the likes of you. They are all about international capital, and finding ways to slide it about.
If you prefer the term "Disaster Capitalists" to Right Wing, I'm comfortable with that. | | | |
| Does anyone still think…. on 10:16 - Nov 18 with 848 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 08:58 - Nov 18 by Guthrum |
Glassers may be (or may have been) somewhat Tory, but he's not that kind of right winger. |
Thanks Guthers. XYZ has a rather unhealthy obsession with me which tends to manifest itself in unsolicited abusive PMs in the early hours of the morning. So I have him on ignore and can’t read what he has posted. | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 10:22 - Nov 18 with 830 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Does anyone still think…. on 09:58 - Nov 18 by ArnoldMoorhen |
In conjunction with everything else, it is a totalitarian policy propping up a Right Wing cabal, yes.
The point is "Funny Boris and Sensible Rishi" are not Centrists. Brexit, as envisioned by the people who are making an attempt at enacting it, was economically a Right Wing idea, because they wanted to remove EU oversight of their capital, had aspirations for widespread deregulation, wanted to enact loads of free trade deals all around the world, and set up Freeports.
All of those are economically Right Wing ideas.
Some of them also had a stated aim of removing the oversight of the ECHR. You can argue about whether that is a right wing policy, but it is definitely not a broad consensus, Social Democratic or One Nation Tory idea. It was wrapped up in a Union Jack by eg Patel, and so is definitely a Nationalist idea. And it will have the effect of removing Workers protections, like the European Working Hours Directive, which is a corporatist move.
This narrative that Sensible Rishi is a centrist is absolute bobbins. The implications of the Court and Sentencing Bill are so serious that it is disappointing that you want to split hairs on semantics rather than focus on the bigger picture.
There have been many moves over the past 5 years to centralise power in the hands of the Executive, eliminate protest, politicise the Police and create a corporatist Singapore on Thames, all wrapped up in anti-immigration rhetoric and with immaculately folded Union Flags ever present behind the podium.
A few tax increases don't make this lot Centrists. They are Extreme Right on many things.
I remember when the Tories were seen as the party of small business. It might have been true in the days of the greengrocers daughter from Grantham, but this lot don't care about the likes of you. They are all about international capital, and finding ways to slide it about.
If you prefer the term "Disaster Capitalists" to Right Wing, I'm comfortable with that. |
I actually think the Tory party has lurched further to the right in many issues over the past decade. The relentless attacks on immigration is a perfect example.
Circumstances have seen them become fiscally closer to the Labour Party. Furlough being very non Tory. The reversal of the Truss/Kwartang ideological right wing mini budget.
I was merely pointing out that cracking down on protests is not exclusive to the right so can’t really be used as an example of them being ‘right wing’. Nor can Brexit. How they manage Brexit can be though. | |
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| Does anyone still think…. on 10:36 - Nov 18 with 811 views | BlueNomad |
Right wing in their xenophobia - I offer Patel and Braverman as evidence
Right wing in their view of the low paid and less well off
Right wing in their sell-off of key industries
Tom Hunt........................................... |  | | |
| Does anyone still think…. on 10:59 - Nov 18 with 798 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Does anyone still think…. on 10:16 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Thanks Guthers. XYZ has a rather unhealthy obsession with me which tends to manifest itself in unsolicited abusive PMs in the early hours of the morning. So I have him on ignore and can’t read what he has posted. |
In spite of disagreeing with you on quite a lot of things politically, I can add my voice to confirm that you have been absolutely consistent in deploring racism in all forms, and have spoken up for refugees for years. | | | |
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