| It's all going swimmingly well up here 18:31 - Feb 23 with 5379 views | GlasgowBlue |
in the SNP leadership election.
Following on from Humza Yousaf saying that although a proud Muslim, he would never use his faith “as a basis of legislation” and then bering found to have "missed" the vote on gay marriage, Kate Forbes campaigning as if she was in the Bible belt trying to be elected as the Republican Presidential candidate, we now have 'the unity candidate's' chief advisor saying that Nicola Sturgeon was ‘up to her dark eyes’ in a ‘coverup’.
Independence? You're having a laugh. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 18:31]
|  |
| |  |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:50 - Feb 23 with 1480 views | DJR |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:05 - Feb 23 by Ewan_Oozami |
I wouldn't say the SNP are progressive.... |
I'm not sure I like your definition of progressive. |  | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:55 - Feb 23 with 1459 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:45 - Feb 23 by DJR |
As this thread appeared to me to amount to nothing more than an anti-SNP echo chamber, I thought I'd express a contrary view.
After all, there would be no point in the general section if everyone agreed with every opening post. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 21:55]
|
Fair enough.
But I read it as more of an anti bigotry thread rather than SNP. Its 2023 and people are still hiding behind medieval religions to push discriminatory views. |  | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:56 - Feb 23 with 1457 views | GlasgowBlue |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:50 - Feb 23 by DJR |
I'm not sure I like your definition of progressive. |
Pre Salmond the SNP were known as the tartan Tories. In the sixties, the SNP had a leader who conspired with Hitler to put a Nazi puppet government in control of Scotland during World War 2. | |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:59 - Feb 23 with 1447 views | DJR |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:55 - Feb 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Fair enough.
But I read it as more of an anti bigotry thread rather than SNP. Its 2023 and people are still hiding behind medieval religions to push discriminatory views. |
Fair enough too but with more of an interest in Scotland than most on here, I saw it saw it differently to you. | | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:01 - Feb 23 with 1447 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
I'm not sure we will be looking for commentary from the Brexit supporter who told us that there would be no issues over the Northern Ireland border. | | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:07 - Feb 23 with 1423 views | DJR |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 21:56 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Pre Salmond the SNP were known as the tartan Tories. In the sixties, the SNP had a leader who conspired with Hitler to put a Nazi puppet government in control of Scotland during World War 2. |
Prior to Salmond, the SNP weren't really a serious party, and if the person you mentioned had done what you say, he would surely have been charged with something,
Anyway, that was then but this is now, and I am sure you don't regard them as progressive because they oppose Brexit. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 22:16]
| | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:09 - Feb 23 with 1422 views | GlasgowBlue |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:01 - Feb 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I'm not sure we will be looking for commentary from the Brexit supporter who told us that there would be no issues over the Northern Ireland border. |
I’ll donate £100 to a charity of your choice if you can link a single thread where I said “ there would be no issues over the Northern Ireland border”.
If you can’t then you may reciprocate and donate £100 to Refugee Action. | |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:26 - Feb 23 with 1381 views | DJR |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:01 - Feb 23 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I'm not sure we will be looking for commentary from the Brexit supporter who told us that there would be no issues over the Northern Ireland border. |
I'm just glad I wasn't on the board when he was in full flow over Brexit. [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 7:28]
| | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:45 - Feb 23 with 1358 views | BLUEGOLD |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:09 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ll donate £100 to a charity of your choice if you can link a single thread where I said “ there would be no issues over the Northern Ireland border”.
If you can’t then you may reciprocate and donate £100 to Refugee Action. |
Brexit loving Tory boy | | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 23:22 - Feb 23 with 1345 views | BlueBadger |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 20:23 - Feb 23 by DJR |
Funny how a "party full of bigots and loons" has turned out turned out to be so progressive. |
I'm not sure you can call yourselves progressive when your leadership front runners all have Very Real Concerns. |  |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 01:00 - Feb 24 with 1296 views | giant_stow |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 18:41 - Feb 23 by J2BLUE |
At least Kate Forbes has been honest about it. Knowing it will likely cost her the job. As much as I disagree with the things the likes of her come out with, it's better to be honest tan lie about it. |
As much as its amusing to see the snp in trouble, there's something a little concerning about all of this. Is society basically saying certain religious people (of different beliefs) can never have the top jobs, cos if it is, I think we'd better be honest about that and all the ramifications. |  |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 01:18 - Feb 24 with 1293 views | Oldsmoker |
Those Bible bashers eh?
I'm so old I can't bash out a first coming let alone a second one. |  |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 02:02 - Feb 24 with 1283 views | Clapham_Junction |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 01:00 - Feb 24 by giant_stow |
As much as its amusing to see the snp in trouble, there's something a little concerning about all of this. Is society basically saying certain religious people (of different beliefs) can never have the top jobs, cos if it is, I think we'd better be honest about that and all the ramifications. |
I don't think anyone is saying people with religious beliefs can't hold the top job. What they are saying is that people who impose (directly or indirectly) their religious beliefs on others should not.
If your religious beliefs are against gay marriage, then don't marry someone the same sex as you. But don't stop other people who don't share your beliefs from doing it. Religion should be a personal matter that you apply to the way you live your life. |  | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 06:37 - Feb 24 with 1244 views | GlasgowBlue |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:09 - Feb 23 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ll donate £100 to a charity of your choice if you can link a single thread where I said “ there would be no issues over the Northern Ireland border”.
If you can’t then you may reciprocate and donate £100 to Refugee Action. |
Still waiting. I wish people would put their money where their mouths are. | |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 08:37 - Feb 24 with 1208 views | itfcjoe |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 02:02 - Feb 24 by Clapham_Junction |
I don't think anyone is saying people with religious beliefs can't hold the top job. What they are saying is that people who impose (directly or indirectly) their religious beliefs on others should not.
If your religious beliefs are against gay marriage, then don't marry someone the same sex as you. But don't stop other people who don't share your beliefs from doing it. Religion should be a personal matter that you apply to the way you live your life. |
The problem here is that Kate Forbes has said she would vote against gay marriage, and whilst Yousuf claims he would support it he missed the vote last time for a meeting elsewhere in Scotland - which for such a landmark piece of legislation is quite clearly him not wanting to vote for it.
Tim Farron had some mealy mouthed abstention because of trying to protect others religious views but it's the same thing.
For me, where the issue is, is how can you expect people with these views (whether to do with religion or not) to drive progressiveness. We've seen what the Tory party turned into under Johnson, with a massive lowering of standards because it comes from the top down, no accountability and no honesty because if the boss can do then so can you.
Both Forbes and Yousuf are almost extremes as social conservatives, whereas Sturgeon was about as socially liberal a leader of a major party has ever been in this country. I don't see how the young people in this country will be carried by either of them.
I also think Forbes gets a much harsher ride over it as is seemingly able to be pushed harder on it as a White Christian whereas journalists wouldn't dream of pushing a Muslim that hard over it - that will help embolden her base but when independence is sitting on 44% her base isn't the problem |  |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 09:39 - Feb 24 with 1145 views | DJR |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 02:02 - Feb 24 by Clapham_Junction |
I don't think anyone is saying people with religious beliefs can't hold the top job. What they are saying is that people who impose (directly or indirectly) their religious beliefs on others should not.
If your religious beliefs are against gay marriage, then don't marry someone the same sex as you. But don't stop other people who don't share your beliefs from doing it. Religion should be a personal matter that you apply to the way you live your life. |
I think the position is a bit more nuanced than that.
Thankfully, religion (with the exception of Northern Ireland) no longer plays much of a role in politics, given we have moved on from the days of Iain Duncan-Smith (a Catholic) imposing a three-line whip on Tory MPs to vote against extending adoption rights to same sex couples.
But with 15 Bishops in the Lords, we can't really pretend to be a country like France where religion and the state are separate. Indeed, with elected representatives of faith, religion clearly continues to play a part in the decisions of some people on what are effectively moral issues.
Of course, one could say that people of faith can't vote on moral issues, but in a liberal democracy, that would seem to be an extraordinary thing to do.
Take, for example, an issue like euthanasia (which I support). This is clearly an area where those with religious views have strong views, but so do disabled people who see euthanasia as a slippery slope, so I don't really see why should those of faith should be singled out for exclusion from the debate.
And whatever the failings of those standing for the leadership of the SNP, I still look on the party as more progressive these days than Labour, who terrified of upsetting the red wall, are failing to stand up for progressive values.
I might add that the Brexit vote also suggests the Scottish people as a whole are more enlightened than the Little Englanders (and Walesers) who voted for Brexit. Indeed, it's something that makes me feel quite proud. [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 16:18]
| | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 11:03 - Feb 24 with 1082 views | leitrimblue |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 18:52 - Feb 23 by BlueBadger |
Who'd have thought that a party who's key policy was based around hollow nationalism and fantasy economics would be full of bigots and loons? [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 18:55]
|
What have the Tories got to do with Scottish Independence? |  | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 11:15 - Feb 24 with 1063 views | GlasgowBlue |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 09:39 - Feb 24 by DJR |
I think the position is a bit more nuanced than that.
Thankfully, religion (with the exception of Northern Ireland) no longer plays much of a role in politics, given we have moved on from the days of Iain Duncan-Smith (a Catholic) imposing a three-line whip on Tory MPs to vote against extending adoption rights to same sex couples.
But with 15 Bishops in the Lords, we can't really pretend to be a country like France where religion and the state are separate. Indeed, with elected representatives of faith, religion clearly continues to play a part in the decisions of some people on what are effectively moral issues.
Of course, one could say that people of faith can't vote on moral issues, but in a liberal democracy, that would seem to be an extraordinary thing to do.
Take, for example, an issue like euthanasia (which I support). This is clearly an area where those with religious views have strong views, but so do disabled people who see euthanasia as a slippery slope, so I don't really see why should those of faith should be singled out for exclusion from the debate.
And whatever the failings of those standing for the leadership of the SNP, I still look on the party as more progressive these days than Labour, who terrified of upsetting the red wall, are failing to stand up for progressive values.
I might add that the Brexit vote also suggests the Scottish people as a whole are more enlightened than the Little Englanders (and Walesers) who voted for Brexit. Indeed, it's something that makes me feel quite proud. [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 16:18]
|
36% of SNP supporters voted for Brexit. Just under 40% of Scots who voted, voted to leave the EU.
If it was a 90/10 split, or even 80/20, between remain and leave then your view that "the Scottish people as a whole are more enlightened than the Little Englanders" would hold more weight. But you are ignoring the significant number of Scots who did vote for Brexit. | |
| |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 12:27 - Feb 24 with 1009 views | Kievthegreat |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 09:39 - Feb 24 by DJR |
I think the position is a bit more nuanced than that.
Thankfully, religion (with the exception of Northern Ireland) no longer plays much of a role in politics, given we have moved on from the days of Iain Duncan-Smith (a Catholic) imposing a three-line whip on Tory MPs to vote against extending adoption rights to same sex couples.
But with 15 Bishops in the Lords, we can't really pretend to be a country like France where religion and the state are separate. Indeed, with elected representatives of faith, religion clearly continues to play a part in the decisions of some people on what are effectively moral issues.
Of course, one could say that people of faith can't vote on moral issues, but in a liberal democracy, that would seem to be an extraordinary thing to do.
Take, for example, an issue like euthanasia (which I support). This is clearly an area where those with religious views have strong views, but so do disabled people who see euthanasia as a slippery slope, so I don't really see why should those of faith should be singled out for exclusion from the debate.
And whatever the failings of those standing for the leadership of the SNP, I still look on the party as more progressive these days than Labour, who terrified of upsetting the red wall, are failing to stand up for progressive values.
I might add that the Brexit vote also suggests the Scottish people as a whole are more enlightened than the Little Englanders (and Walesers) who voted for Brexit. Indeed, it's something that makes me feel quite proud. [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 16:18]
|
Thing for me, is that Kate Forbes crossed a line when she wouldn't have voted because of her religious beliefs.
She is religious and obviously subscribes sincerely to those beliefs. She is entitled to her beliefs, even if many people disagree with them. She said however that she would have voted with her conscience against same sex marriage. Her civic duty to represent her constituents and vote in their best interests. If her beliefs run counter to that, and she values them more than her duty to her constituents, people have every right to question whether she is a suitable candidate for any elected role. That's democracy in action, but is being spun by some, noticeably by a large amount of right wingers (former Reform MEPs, GB news, etc...) as an attack on her faith, showing how it's okay to discriminate against Christians.
No one should be excluded from a debate. They can argue their point, a fundamental right in a free and fair society. However it is a person's right to hold those views and beliefs that needs to be respected, not the belief/view itself. If you subscribe strictly that "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death", I refuse to respect that belief. Even if I respect that I cannot compel you to believe anything different, I can/will/must call out your beliefs as wrong. That is also a fundamental right in a free and fair society.
The religion bit is a red herring. If I was electing someone for leader of a party or for parliament in a general election and they espoused views that run counter to mine or suggested they'd vote against legislation I want passed, then I would hold that against them when I decide who to vote for. It makes no difference if their views were shaped by religion or not. I think on one hand it's actually good that she is honest and upfront as it helps people make informed choices. If it was my choice in this election, her views mean I wouldn't touch her with a 40ft bargepole. |  | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 12:36 - Feb 24 with 989 views | MattinLondon |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 11:15 - Feb 24 by GlasgowBlue |
36% of SNP supporters voted for Brexit. Just under 40% of Scots who voted, voted to leave the EU.
If it was a 90/10 split, or even 80/20, between remain and leave then your view that "the Scottish people as a whole are more enlightened than the Little Englanders" would hold more weight. But you are ignoring the significant number of Scots who did vote for Brexit. |
In other words, Scotland voted to stay in the EU. |  | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 12:43 - Feb 24 with 957 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 12:36 - Feb 24 by MattinLondon |
In other words, Scotland voted to stay in the EU. |
Yep they didn’t want to leave their biggest trading partner…oh wait. | | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 13:23 - Feb 24 with 908 views | DJR |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 11:15 - Feb 24 by GlasgowBlue |
36% of SNP supporters voted for Brexit. Just under 40% of Scots who voted, voted to leave the EU.
If it was a 90/10 split, or even 80/20, between remain and leave then your view that "the Scottish people as a whole are more enlightened than the Little Englanders" would hold more weight. But you are ignoring the significant number of Scots who did vote for Brexit. |
I believe you were one of them.
If the whole of the UK had voted 62/38 to Remain (as was the case in Scotland), I think that would have been quite a resounding victory for the Remain campaign, given the weight of the right-wing media campaign in favour of Brexit.
The other thing to bear in mind is that places like Glasgow and Dundee have entrenched areas of poverty that are far worse than England, so they were probably bound to be some who shared the concerns of, say, those in the red wall. And there will also have been Tories like you that voted Brexit. But nothing like the number of those who are the Scottish equivalent of those in red wall seats in England voted for Brexit, which I think is to be applauded.
Indeed, no area in Scotland voted for Brexit, and in Glasgow, a very respectable 66% voted for Remain.
And don't forget your precious Tories have come nowhere near 50% of the popular vote for decades. [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 13:44]
| | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 13:42 - Feb 24 with 864 views | DJR |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 12:27 - Feb 24 by Kievthegreat |
Thing for me, is that Kate Forbes crossed a line when she wouldn't have voted because of her religious beliefs.
She is religious and obviously subscribes sincerely to those beliefs. She is entitled to her beliefs, even if many people disagree with them. She said however that she would have voted with her conscience against same sex marriage. Her civic duty to represent her constituents and vote in their best interests. If her beliefs run counter to that, and she values them more than her duty to her constituents, people have every right to question whether she is a suitable candidate for any elected role. That's democracy in action, but is being spun by some, noticeably by a large amount of right wingers (former Reform MEPs, GB news, etc...) as an attack on her faith, showing how it's okay to discriminate against Christians.
No one should be excluded from a debate. They can argue their point, a fundamental right in a free and fair society. However it is a person's right to hold those views and beliefs that needs to be respected, not the belief/view itself. If you subscribe strictly that "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death", I refuse to respect that belief. Even if I respect that I cannot compel you to believe anything different, I can/will/must call out your beliefs as wrong. That is also a fundamental right in a free and fair society.
The religion bit is a red herring. If I was electing someone for leader of a party or for parliament in a general election and they espoused views that run counter to mine or suggested they'd vote against legislation I want passed, then I would hold that against them when I decide who to vote for. It makes no difference if their views were shaped by religion or not. I think on one hand it's actually good that she is honest and upfront as it helps people make informed choices. If it was my choice in this election, her views mean I wouldn't touch her with a 40ft bargepole. |
I am not sure there is anything in your post that I would disagree with. The fact though is that I was responding to posts that suggested certain limitations from a political point of view on people with religious views, which just struck me as being very illiberal.
But what, pray tell me, is this GB News of which you speak? Surely he hasn't got his own news channel as well? [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 16:14]
| | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 16:39 - Feb 24 with 785 views | Zapers |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 22:26 - Feb 23 by DJR |
I'm just glad I wasn't on the board when he was in full flow over Brexit. [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 7:28]
|
Why, just why out of interest? I wasn’t involved with Brexit because I’m not living in the UK, and am unlikely to in the future. However I would have voted to stay. Why are you and others still whining? If you believe in democracy, I’m afraid you have to accept the majority vote, think that’s how it works;) | | | |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 16:56 - Feb 24 with 752 views | J2BLUE |
| It's all going swimmingly well up here on 01:00 - Feb 24 by giant_stow |
As much as its amusing to see the snp in trouble, there's something a little concerning about all of this. Is society basically saying certain religious people (of different beliefs) can never have the top jobs, cos if it is, I think we'd better be honest about that and all the ramifications. |
I don't think society is saying anything but if enough people are put off by the words/actions of someone who openly admits their religion makes them believe things which go against mainstream opinion they just naturally won't be elected. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
