| Budgets....Or squad value? 13:46 - Apr 24 with 6610 views | BigCommon |
I find this " budget" argument quite pointless and a little annoying, when it's thrown at us, by some sets of oppo fans...
Take Plymouth for example. OK, so they haven't paid transfer fees for a fare few of their star performers? So what? I haven't done the maths, but if you add up the value of certain loan players, and add to the value of their overall squad. Is their such a massive chasm, between their squad value, ie, what their manager has at his disposal. And ours, or SW or Derby's, etc..?
Only reason I mention it, is because, it's the laziest argument I've heard, to validate Schumakers award for L1 manager OY...When you look in his box of tools, they arent cheap and nasty tools he's using....
I still think he's done a good job and Plymouth have played some good football to be where they are, no question...But that particular caveat of "It's all been done on a low budget " is a bit misleading, imo. Kinda suggests he's had nothing to work with.
I guess I'm being protective of KMc, because the argument implies that KM and Ipswich results are all down to budget. Which we know , is not entirely true... |  | | |  |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 13:49 - Apr 24 with 3884 views | itfcjoe |
Our budget, and the value of our players, dwarves what Plymouth have.
Our wage bill last season was higher than when we came 6th in the Championship.
We are big spenders, and that brings it's own pressure - we've elected to spend in a more sustainable way than others - i.e big money on likes of Davis, Clarke, etc who could be sold on for mega money opposed to big and long contracts to gnarled L1 veterans to get them to drop down.
Having a bigger budget makes things easier, but that doesn't mean KMc and his team haven't (nearly) done a fantastic job |  |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 13:56 - Apr 24 with 3830 views | Illinoisblue |
The end of season banter wars are going to be quite something. If we go up, it will all be “they bought promotion, money money, blah blah”. With added digs if we finish second. “Best team in L1 couldn’t even buy their way to the league title.” It will get very salty.
If the worst happens, then it will be best to avoid the internet for a few months. Budgies will be using those “Norwich city, we’re coming for you” video clips and adding “you’ll need to be in the same league to do that, lol” |  |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 13:58 - Apr 24 with 3823 views | le2blue |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 13:49 - Apr 24 by itfcjoe |
Our budget, and the value of our players, dwarves what Plymouth have.
Our wage bill last season was higher than when we came 6th in the Championship.
We are big spenders, and that brings it's own pressure - we've elected to spend in a more sustainable way than others - i.e big money on likes of Davis, Clarke, etc who could be sold on for mega money opposed to big and long contracts to gnarled L1 veterans to get them to drop down.
Having a bigger budget makes things easier, but that doesn't mean KMc and his team haven't (nearly) done a fantastic job |
Contrast our approach with Wednesday. They may be spending similar amounts, or more, than us this season, but on older players with little resale value, little in terms of upwards development potential if they do win promotion, and more injury prone as well.
They go up this season and they'll almost have to start again next year building a team for the Championship, whereas we will be looking for incremental improvements to grow. Hopefully a much better strategy. |  | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 13:58 - Apr 24 with 3816 views | J2BLUE |
No one is criticising McKenna. Awards like MOTY are so broad that they don't really mean a massive amount. If they were given out a couple of years after the season finished I think McKenna would get it for the groundwork he is laying with this team. We can see it but no one can keep up with 24 teams with that level of detail.
Based on all of the typical factors these awards are based on, Schumacher was nailed on. |  |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:14 - Apr 24 with 3743 views | BigCommon |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 13:49 - Apr 24 by itfcjoe |
Our budget, and the value of our players, dwarves what Plymouth have.
Our wage bill last season was higher than when we came 6th in the Championship.
We are big spenders, and that brings it's own pressure - we've elected to spend in a more sustainable way than others - i.e big money on likes of Davis, Clarke, etc who could be sold on for mega money opposed to big and long contracts to gnarled L1 veterans to get them to drop down.
Having a bigger budget makes things easier, but that doesn't mean KMc and his team haven't (nearly) done a fantastic job |
Fare points and I get all that.
But if you buy a sports car, and I borrow one and only have to pay 10% towards the petrol, we're neck and neck in a race. Does that make me the better driver?
Maybe I'm overvaluing their squad? But its not as if Schuey has plucked players from L2 and polished them up. Which, imo, is what the "low budget" argument, implies. | | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:20 - Apr 24 with 3713 views | Argyle_Fan |
Misleading? If you tally up your squad value in transfer fees - it is north of £10mn. If you tally up our fees, it is anywhere between £500k-£800k. We sold Camara to you for £500k (and he was one of our best players), and you've still got about 5 worthy replacements. We're operating on wildly different budgets.
It's not pointless, lazy or misleading (would love for you to explain how it's any of those things). It's just reality. Ipswich have the most complete team in this league. We're somehow ahead of you and have been pretty much all season, despite also losing Whittaker, Cooper, Randell, Azaz and many others to very lengthy injuries.
'Nasty tools?' We're likely only paying a slice of the loan player wages. Besides, this is the same loan market that you are benefitting from, sending out a heap load of players to other L1 clubs and L2 also. Are those nasty tools also?
Well, yes what McKenna has down is down to budget. He has assembled a squad that on paper is worth greater than £10mn. A forward line of multi million pound players like Broadhead and Chaplin. There's not another club in this league that has anywhere near those resources. |  | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:22 - Apr 24 with 3696 views | itfcjoe |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:14 - Apr 24 by BigCommon |
Fare points and I get all that.
But if you buy a sports car, and I borrow one and only have to pay 10% towards the petrol, we're neck and neck in a race. Does that make me the better driver?
Maybe I'm overvaluing their squad? But its not as if Schuey has plucked players from L2 and polished them up. Which, imo, is what the "low budget" argument, implies. |
There has been an element of that at Plymouth - their loan signings bar Matete were all players with limited first team football under their belt from mid ranking sides like Swansea, Norwich, Wolves, etc plus their permanent deals are generally from L2 like Butcher or players that haven't cut it in Champ clubs or the Kiwi
When you see what we were able to do in January with Luongo, Hirst, Broadhead and Clarke it blows them out of the water - each one of them probably has more Champ games under their belt than their entire squad | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:33 - Apr 24 with 3613 views | PAFCSurrey |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:14 - Apr 24 by BigCommon |
Fare points and I get all that.
But if you buy a sports car, and I borrow one and only have to pay 10% towards the petrol, we're neck and neck in a race. Does that make me the better driver?
Maybe I'm overvaluing their squad? But its not as if Schuey has plucked players from L2 and polished them up. Which, imo, is what the "low budget" argument, implies. |
the players we bought in January (bought, not loans) were all cheaper / development players. Take Waine for example who came over from NZ, the quoted cost (and its impossible to dispute / verify this) was £300k. Most argyle fans dispute that its anywhere near this so i'd still argue that most of the players we've bought (and the corresponding wages) are absolutely dwarfed by you.
Thats also not a dig, i'm not trying to be obtuse (or provocative) about that, you're a far bigger club than us in terms of status, history, ground size. Literally pick a criteria, so you should be able to spend more
I would say this but I'd be amazed if our budget was even half of yours. | | | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:35 - Apr 24 with 3571 views | NeedhamChris |
I don't think the argument implies that at all, no-one is taking anything away from the job McKenna has done.
I'd say it's deserved for Schumacher but it's a close one, but they've maintained consistency across the entire season pretty much and have been better (fractionally) than us - although that could change between now and next weekend.
As Joe has said though, we've been able to blow League One clubs out of the water with our approach - January in particular with the signings we strengthened with. McKenna has still done a brilliant job with it, don't think we need to be particularly sensitive about that. | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:37 - Apr 24 with 3561 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:35 - Apr 24 by NeedhamChris |
I don't think the argument implies that at all, no-one is taking anything away from the job McKenna has done.
I'd say it's deserved for Schumacher but it's a close one, but they've maintained consistency across the entire season pretty much and have been better (fractionally) than us - although that could change between now and next weekend.
As Joe has said though, we've been able to blow League One clubs out of the water with our approach - January in particular with the signings we strengthened with. McKenna has still done a brilliant job with it, don't think we need to be particularly sensitive about that. |
We don't need to be sensitve about it, the money the new owners have put in these past 2 seasons barely compensates for the total lack of investment from our previous owner for the previous 15 years..... |  |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:39 - Apr 24 with 3504 views | NeedhamChris |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:37 - Apr 24 by Ewan_Oozami |
We don't need to be sensitve about it, the money the new owners have put in these past 2 seasons barely compensates for the total lack of investment from our previous owner for the previous 15 years..... |
The two are completely different - the current investment (from a playing staff perspective) doesn't replace the lack of investment we had in the Championship.
Our budget then would still have dwarfed most of League One's, this league wasn't as strong then as it is now. And Plymouth have hardly had 15 years of large-scale investment either which is the comparison some are making here. | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:40 - Apr 24 with 3498 views | dickie |
Frankly after 20 years of disappointment, under investment and stagnation (plus the bad timing of our premier league relegation and the itv digital debacle) I couldn't give a sh1t if we buy the league. We've paid our dues and as long as our finances are sustainable and responsibly managed who cares what other fans think? | | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:49 - Apr 24 with 3456 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:39 - Apr 24 by NeedhamChris |
The two are completely different - the current investment (from a playing staff perspective) doesn't replace the lack of investment we had in the Championship.
Our budget then would still have dwarfed most of League One's, this league wasn't as strong then as it is now. And Plymouth have hardly had 15 years of large-scale investment either which is the comparison some are making here. |
It was more of an allegorical comparison rather than an exact statement of absolute financial activities and outcomes...the compensating for me was more psychological than actuarial! | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:52 - Apr 24 with 3453 views | Guthrum |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:33 - Apr 24 by PAFCSurrey |
the players we bought in January (bought, not loans) were all cheaper / development players. Take Waine for example who came over from NZ, the quoted cost (and its impossible to dispute / verify this) was £300k. Most argyle fans dispute that its anywhere near this so i'd still argue that most of the players we've bought (and the corresponding wages) are absolutely dwarfed by you.
Thats also not a dig, i'm not trying to be obtuse (or provocative) about that, you're a far bigger club than us in terms of status, history, ground size. Literally pick a criteria, so you should be able to spend more
I would say this but I'd be amazed if our budget was even half of yours. |
Looking at Companies House filings, Plymouth Argyle's operating expenses (Cost of sales plus administration) in 2021/22 were £12,024,695. Wages and salaries (all staff, inc NI and pensions) were £6,017,404.
Ipswich Town's operating expenses in 2021/22 were £28,938,000. Wages and salaries were £16,432,000.
So markedly less than half of ours last season. [Post edited 24 Apr 2023 14:53]
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:53 - Apr 24 with 3437 views | PAFCSurrey |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:35 - Apr 24 by NeedhamChris |
I don't think the argument implies that at all, no-one is taking anything away from the job McKenna has done.
I'd say it's deserved for Schumacher but it's a close one, but they've maintained consistency across the entire season pretty much and have been better (fractionally) than us - although that could change between now and next weekend.
As Joe has said though, we've been able to blow League One clubs out of the water with our approach - January in particular with the signings we strengthened with. McKenna has still done a brilliant job with it, don't think we need to be particularly sensitive about that. |
to also apply some balance to this debate as i'd of course say that Schuey is the more worthy winner based on what he's had (budget etc) what I would say is that McKenna has done a brilliant job in terms of the style of football you play but more importantly assimilating the new players you went out and got in January, thats not always an easy task so deserves a lot of credit for that as a young manager | | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:54 - Apr 24 with 3425 views | Illinoisblue |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:20 - Apr 24 by Argyle_Fan |
Misleading? If you tally up your squad value in transfer fees - it is north of £10mn. If you tally up our fees, it is anywhere between £500k-£800k. We sold Camara to you for £500k (and he was one of our best players), and you've still got about 5 worthy replacements. We're operating on wildly different budgets.
It's not pointless, lazy or misleading (would love for you to explain how it's any of those things). It's just reality. Ipswich have the most complete team in this league. We're somehow ahead of you and have been pretty much all season, despite also losing Whittaker, Cooper, Randell, Azaz and many others to very lengthy injuries.
'Nasty tools?' We're likely only paying a slice of the loan player wages. Besides, this is the same loan market that you are benefitting from, sending out a heap load of players to other L1 clubs and L2 also. Are those nasty tools also?
Well, yes what McKenna has down is down to budget. He has assembled a squad that on paper is worth greater than £10mn. A forward line of multi million pound players like Broadhead and Chaplin. There's not another club in this league that has anywhere near those resources. |
A very sensible post until your dig at McKenna at the end. | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:57 - Apr 24 with 3395 views | PAFCSurrey |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:52 - Apr 24 by Guthrum |
Looking at Companies House filings, Plymouth Argyle's operating expenses (Cost of sales plus administration) in 2021/22 were £12,024,695. Wages and salaries (all staff, inc NI and pensions) were £6,017,404.
Ipswich Town's operating expenses in 2021/22 were £28,938,000. Wages and salaries were £16,432,000.
So markedly less than half of ours last season. [Post edited 24 Apr 2023 14:53]
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Interesting. thanks for that.
What i'd also say is that the money you've spent / invested will is going to put you in a very good stead in the champs next season. In reality you're 'oven ready' with a few tweaks, as opposed to wholesale changes needed.
and both Wednesday and us have elements of that . | | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:59 - Apr 24 with 3381 views | BigCommon |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:33 - Apr 24 by PAFCSurrey |
the players we bought in January (bought, not loans) were all cheaper / development players. Take Waine for example who came over from NZ, the quoted cost (and its impossible to dispute / verify this) was £300k. Most argyle fans dispute that its anywhere near this so i'd still argue that most of the players we've bought (and the corresponding wages) are absolutely dwarfed by you.
Thats also not a dig, i'm not trying to be obtuse (or provocative) about that, you're a far bigger club than us in terms of status, history, ground size. Literally pick a criteria, so you should be able to spend more
I would say this but I'd be amazed if our budget was even half of yours. |
All good points...Tbf I think my point might have been lost in translation..I know we have a large budget, I'm not saying yours is anywhere near ours...I just think the "we've done it on a shoestring" argument, suggests that you've not had much at your disposal.. When, tbf, off their of my head, Whitaker, Mumba, Mattete to name 3, got to be north of 5m worth of talent right there...
Like I said earlier, take nothing away from Plymouth for how they've performed this season. And it still takes a good manager to get it right. Guess I'm a bit sore, at all the accusations of us buying promotion (potentially). When those that we are competing with, have plenty at their disposal. And also, aside from what we've spent, there's a he'll of a lot of hard work and restructuring going on at Ipswich. It's not soley down to spending. Which most other fan bases chuck at us. Which is annoying, because it belittles the efforts going on around the club.
Anyway, best off luck in remaing fixtures . Hope you get those 5pts...🌠| | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 15:01 - Apr 24 with 3373 views | Guthrum |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:57 - Apr 24 by PAFCSurrey |
Interesting. thanks for that.
What i'd also say is that the money you've spent / invested will is going to put you in a very good stead in the champs next season. In reality you're 'oven ready' with a few tweaks, as opposed to wholesale changes needed.
and both Wednesday and us have elements of that . |
Indeed. That also covers a period of significant squad turnover/renovation, plus spending on infrastructure. So probably higher than it would be otherwise.
Our Chief Exec, Mark Ashton, assures us that net transfer spending this year is practically zero, taking into account that fees are paid in installments and that we have sold several players (or received top-ups/installments from previous deals). | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 15:07 - Apr 24 with 3301 views | Stewart27 |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 13:56 - Apr 24 by Illinoisblue |
The end of season banter wars are going to be quite something. If we go up, it will all be “they bought promotion, money money, blah blah”. With added digs if we finish second. “Best team in L1 couldn’t even buy their way to the league title.” It will get very salty.
If the worst happens, then it will be best to avoid the internet for a few months. Budgies will be using those “Norwich city, we’re coming for you” video clips and adding “you’ll need to be in the same league to do that, lol” |
What are people going to do with the “finest football team the world has ever seen” clips?
Nothing. Because it’s just chanting.
Enjoy the ride. | | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 15:10 - Apr 24 with 3298 views | itfcjoe |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:53 - Apr 24 by PAFCSurrey |
to also apply some balance to this debate as i'd of course say that Schuey is the more worthy winner based on what he's had (budget etc) what I would say is that McKenna has done a brilliant job in terms of the style of football you play but more importantly assimilating the new players you went out and got in January, thats not always an easy task so deserves a lot of credit for that as a young manager |
Not that my opinions matter for much, like individual awards, but for me if Plymouth were to drop out of the top 2 I think Schumacher shouldn't be manager of the season. If they finish in it he should be nailed on for it though but it is about the tight margins.
I think a win tomorrow for either (or both of) Plymouth or Ipswich basically seals the deal - it will be job done in all but name - and Schumacher will rightfully be the manager of the season as two heavily backed big clubs in the league are getting 90+ points and he will have managed to get Plymouth up when that is happened is incredibly special | |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 15:18 - Apr 24 with 3222 views | davblue |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:53 - Apr 24 by PAFCSurrey |
to also apply some balance to this debate as i'd of course say that Schuey is the more worthy winner based on what he's had (budget etc) what I would say is that McKenna has done a brilliant job in terms of the style of football you play but more importantly assimilating the new players you went out and got in January, thats not always an easy task so deserves a lot of credit for that as a young manager |
The difference with the way Ipswich have done it and Plymouth, we have a team ready to go for next season. Plymouth have 5 loan players they need to replace straight off the bat. Plymouth wouldn't have the resources to buy all 5 of those players at the start of the season and they wouldn't probably now either.
Schumacher has been brilliant this season and he's one to watch on the managerial ladder, you may well struggle to keep him as we will with McKenna in the next 18 months. |  | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 15:22 - Apr 24 with 3116 views | clive_baker |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:20 - Apr 24 by Argyle_Fan |
Misleading? If you tally up your squad value in transfer fees - it is north of £10mn. If you tally up our fees, it is anywhere between £500k-£800k. We sold Camara to you for £500k (and he was one of our best players), and you've still got about 5 worthy replacements. We're operating on wildly different budgets.
It's not pointless, lazy or misleading (would love for you to explain how it's any of those things). It's just reality. Ipswich have the most complete team in this league. We're somehow ahead of you and have been pretty much all season, despite also losing Whittaker, Cooper, Randell, Azaz and many others to very lengthy injuries.
'Nasty tools?' We're likely only paying a slice of the loan player wages. Besides, this is the same loan market that you are benefitting from, sending out a heap load of players to other L1 clubs and L2 also. Are those nasty tools also?
Well, yes what McKenna has down is down to budget. He has assembled a squad that on paper is worth greater than £10mn. A forward line of multi million pound players like Broadhead and Chaplin. There's not another club in this league that has anywhere near those resources. |
Although when you talk about 'squad value' yours is certainly helped by your reliance on loan players throughout this season, who I'm assuming are a £0 in your calculation. We've spent money, but we've invested in assets who we own and who we believe have a high ceiling and resale value. I would wager that the value of our squad is greater now than the cumulative cost to us at the point of purchase. We've spent £1m on a left back, it's a lot at L1 level and nobody is denying we're in a fortunate position to be able to do so, but he's an example of someone who has quickly become one of the most impressive young full backs outside of the Premier League and will already be worth way north of that. That's how sustainable player trading works. We've spent more, but we've created more value in the process.
As for McKenna, this approach means it's a little more nuanced than 'he's had money to spend, therefore his job has been easy'. The transfer kitty hasn't been spent on those most likely to add value in the immediate term, it's been spent on buying potential and it's no small feat to integrate and nurture those inexperienced players like he has. If you had money to spend and all you cared about was promotion this season, it probably wouldn't have been spent on Leif Davis who had about 10 senior appearances to his name. As brilliant as he's been, we would've thrown the money on tried and tested 30 year-olds. This is very considered, sensible, longer term, planning.
There's absolutely no denying we've spent money, a good chunk of it relative to a lot of clubs at this level and the resources we have are far in excess of other clubs. It's hardly Roy of the Rovers stuff and nobody is suggesting it is. But we're spending it sensibly, sustainably, and McKenna can only play the hand he's been dealt. From a footballing perspective we've come on enormously, we've only lost 4 all season and especially in the last couple of months we've been ruthlessly consistent. I genuinely don't think there are many sides in the division above us that would play the last 12 games we have and pick up 11 wins and a draw, averaging nearly 3 goals a game and conceding only 2 in total. |  |
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| Budgets....Or squad value? on 15:28 - Apr 24 with 3081 views | Argyle_Fan |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:54 - Apr 24 by Illinoisblue |
A very sensible post until your dig at McKenna at the end. |
Didn't think that was a dig? I'm not aware of another L1 club spending as much as Ipswich.
However - on that point. We're definitely not happy with McKenna for his generally snidy remarks such as 'Plymouth have had an awful lot of decisions'. I can't recall him ever saying anything nice about us.
Very poor. Even more so given the respective budgets. Comes across unlikable and bitter towards Schuey. | | | |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 15:37 - Apr 24 with 2995 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Budgets....Or squad value? on 14:20 - Apr 24 by Argyle_Fan |
Misleading? If you tally up your squad value in transfer fees - it is north of £10mn. If you tally up our fees, it is anywhere between £500k-£800k. We sold Camara to you for £500k (and he was one of our best players), and you've still got about 5 worthy replacements. We're operating on wildly different budgets.
It's not pointless, lazy or misleading (would love for you to explain how it's any of those things). It's just reality. Ipswich have the most complete team in this league. We're somehow ahead of you and have been pretty much all season, despite also losing Whittaker, Cooper, Randell, Azaz and many others to very lengthy injuries.
'Nasty tools?' We're likely only paying a slice of the loan player wages. Besides, this is the same loan market that you are benefitting from, sending out a heap load of players to other L1 clubs and L2 also. Are those nasty tools also?
Well, yes what McKenna has down is down to budget. He has assembled a squad that on paper is worth greater than £10mn. A forward line of multi million pound players like Broadhead and Chaplin. There's not another club in this league that has anywhere near those resources. |
5 worthy CM replacements? Must be having a laugh. We've had a 19 year old youth team player, with no previous league experience step up and start 10 games and come on as a sub for 7. He did well, but we haven't had midfield options for a significant portion of the season.
In defence we lost two of our three first choice CB. One had his face broken, FFS.
Other clubs talk about their/our injuries like we didn't lose our best CBs and CMs. Why aren't we talking about losing our strikers? Because we only had one to begin the season, until we got Hirst in. We had our injury crisis earlier than others, and therefore had our dip in automatic promotion form earlier than others.
No one would be talking about Chaplin if we hadn't improved him as a player. Barnsley sold him to us!!! He score 4 in over 30 games for Barnsley prior to joining us. He scored 9 last season. His 23 goals this season are down to his hard work and our coaching, not because we bought a proven player who was guaranteed to be great.
EDIT: And FYI, Chaplin's transfer fee was ~£750k. When we tried to buy Whittaker it was for >£1m. So you had someone playing for you who was worth >£1m. This is why people don't buy the whole no money thing. You've had highly valued players on loan. We've purchased highly valued players. [Post edited 24 Apr 2023 15:50]
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