| Just Stop Oil 11:38 - May 25 with 14250 views | GeoffSentence |
Have done the Chelsea Flower Show now.
Is Nothing Sacred?
Edit: Just seen that Keno has done this already. [Post edited 25 May 2023 11:45]
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| Just Stop Oil on 22:03 - May 25 with 1573 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Just Stop Oil on 21:43 - May 25 by StochesStotasBlewe |
Thanks for posting that.
I realised China was developing quickly but had no idea how rapidly. That’s actually quite scary.
There’s not a cat in hells chance they’re going to change direction is there. |
They are changing direction. They’re the world leaders in solar and have ambitious plans in place to peak their CO2 emissions before 2030 and be carbon neutral by 2060. Now that might not be quick enough of course, but they’re playing catch up compared to countries like us. They’ve a chance of doing it, as they’ll throw money at cleaner energy options and have no qualms in doing what they need to, even if that means flooding communities and destroying rivers for hydropower. |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 22:34 - May 25 with 1525 views | Simonds92 |
Do i agree with stopping traffic in the middle of London where people are trying to get to school, work, hospital? No, not really. Do i support causing mild inconveniences at sporting events and big national events, causing genuine outrage to those who couldn't care less if the world burns because it wont impact them? Yes, i absolutely love it! I hope it continues and this ridiculous outrage for minor inconvenience is seen for what it is in the grand scheme of things. |  | | |
| Just Stop Oil on 22:40 - May 25 with 1513 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Just Stop Oil on 22:03 - May 25 by Swansea_Blue |
They are changing direction. They’re the world leaders in solar and have ambitious plans in place to peak their CO2 emissions before 2030 and be carbon neutral by 2060. Now that might not be quick enough of course, but they’re playing catch up compared to countries like us. They’ve a chance of doing it, as they’ll throw money at cleaner energy options and have no qualms in doing what they need to, even if that means flooding communities and destroying rivers for hydropower. |
Have to say Swansea, to be fair I agree to an extent, they are fully aware of plastics and stuff. Although as a company we are trying to go more eco anyway they aren't keen on producing with loads of plastic. Well they are but it has to be a certain type of plastic.
However, they are still buying all the coal they can get their hands on from Australia and Africa, in fact China pretty much owns Africa now, literally.
........and the power they use is just off the scale |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 23:28 - May 25 with 1498 views | lowhouseblue |
am i safe in assuming that all those supporting this protest take at most one short-haul return flight every three years or one long-haul flight every eight years? or is all that nothing to do with the oil industry? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 02:13 - May 26 with 1432 views | Ryorry |
| Ha! What a bunch of divs. (n/t) on 20:43 - May 25 by GeoffSentence |
This is the most gentile, harmless protest imaginable. No harm done except a bit of orange colouring which will easily wash away, and people still complain.
Anyone who objects to that as a form of protest is revealing themselves as against the idea of protest at all. |
I get what you mean and would agree with it, except that by picking the wrong target (ie people who are mostly already aware & trying to do their bit) makes the protesters look as if their ability to assess situations is somewhat lacking, potentially far from helpful in trying to convince others of the validity of the cause.
Yeah I know, call me nit-picking, but I just want to maximise successful campaigning by aiming at those with most power, so if I could, I’d be protesting outside the Embassies of the worst culprit countries. [Post edited 26 May 2023 4:04]
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| Just Stop Oil on 08:02 - May 26 with 1342 views | DJR |
| Just Stop Oil on 23:28 - May 25 by lowhouseblue |
am i safe in assuming that all those supporting this protest take at most one short-haul return flight every three years or one long-haul flight every eight years? or is all that nothing to do with the oil industry? |
At the end of the day, I think this point is as important as the actions of governments and industry.
In other words, except for a very small minority, there seems little evidence of people's behaviour (in terms of travel, consumer goods, etc) changing.
Indeed, even moving to a plant-based diet may make little difference if we continue to import food from far-flung countries. |  | | |
| Just Stop Oil on 08:14 - May 26 with 1322 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Just Stop Oil on 22:40 - May 25 by Lord_Lucan |
Have to say Swansea, to be fair I agree to an extent, they are fully aware of plastics and stuff. Although as a company we are trying to go more eco anyway they aren't keen on producing with loads of plastic. Well they are but it has to be a certain type of plastic.
However, they are still buying all the coal they can get their hands on from Australia and Africa, in fact China pretty much owns Africa now, literally.
........and the power they use is just off the scale |
They use something like a quarter of all the world’s energy, don’t they? Maybe more. Just bonkers. I’m envious of your opportunities to go out there though - I’d love to have a good look around the place. Must be something else. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 08:15 - May 26 with 1321 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 08:02 - May 26 by DJR |
At the end of the day, I think this point is as important as the actions of governments and industry.
In other words, except for a very small minority, there seems little evidence of people's behaviour (in terms of travel, consumer goods, etc) changing.
Indeed, even moving to a plant-based diet may make little difference if we continue to import food from far-flung countries. |
We all can, and should, cut down where possible. I include myself in this, I'm by no means perfect. I take more flights than I should, probably on average a return short haul every other year over my life time.
But it's also worth remembering that if we take one fossil fuel company (BP in this example), per year they emit 273969870000 KGs of CO2 (33.9 megatons)
You'd have to over 1.2 billion short haul flights to do the damage that BP does in a single year. That's just ONE fossil fuel company. And that's with them having cut down.
To put that into perspective, you'd have to take a short-haul flight every single second for 30 years to do that. [Post edited 26 May 2023 8:16]
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| Just Stop Oil on 08:55 - May 26 with 1277 views | DJR |
| Just Stop Oil on 08:15 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
We all can, and should, cut down where possible. I include myself in this, I'm by no means perfect. I take more flights than I should, probably on average a return short haul every other year over my life time.
But it's also worth remembering that if we take one fossil fuel company (BP in this example), per year they emit 273969870000 KGs of CO2 (33.9 megatons)
You'd have to over 1.2 billion short haul flights to do the damage that BP does in a single year. That's just ONE fossil fuel company. And that's with them having cut down.
To put that into perspective, you'd have to take a short-haul flight every single second for 30 years to do that. [Post edited 26 May 2023 8:16]
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But aren't the two things inextricably linked? In other words, BP's emissions have to be split amongst the presumably billions of transactions involving the use (directly or indirectly) of what they produce (eg. filling up at a petrol station, buying a product, taking a flight etc.) | | | |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:02 - May 26 with 1252 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 08:55 - May 26 by DJR |
But aren't the two things inextricably linked? In other words, BP's emissions have to be split amongst the presumably billions of transactions involving the use (directly or indirectly) of what they produce (eg. filling up at a petrol station, buying a product, taking a flight etc.) |
To an extent yes. If we go to just what they emit directly (and I'm not sure if that includes their subsidiaries), the last figures I could find suggest that emit just the 55 billion KGs.
So using the same example, you'd have to do just the 220 million flights.
And BP is on the lower end of the scale when it comes to emissions.
My general point is that these companies do a lot to try and shift the blame onto everyone else. And there is some blame there for sure, but a lot of the issue is with them. They knew this was a problem, they covered it up and when that stopped working they turned around and blamed everyone else whilst continuing to do nothing. [Post edited 26 May 2023 9:04]
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| Just Stop Oil on 09:12 - May 26 with 1223 views | Suffolktractor |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:02 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
To an extent yes. If we go to just what they emit directly (and I'm not sure if that includes their subsidiaries), the last figures I could find suggest that emit just the 55 billion KGs.
So using the same example, you'd have to do just the 220 million flights.
And BP is on the lower end of the scale when it comes to emissions.
My general point is that these companies do a lot to try and shift the blame onto everyone else. And there is some blame there for sure, but a lot of the issue is with them. They knew this was a problem, they covered it up and when that stopped working they turned around and blamed everyone else whilst continuing to do nothing. [Post edited 26 May 2023 9:04]
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But if you, me and everyone else stopped going on flights, stopped driving cars and stopped importing food from around the world and loads of tat from the Far East, then BP and the like wouldn’t extract loads of oil because there is no demand. It’s easy to blame BP and even the government, but until we change our ways nothing will change. | | | |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:20 - May 26 with 1204 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:12 - May 26 by Suffolktractor |
But if you, me and everyone else stopped going on flights, stopped driving cars and stopped importing food from around the world and loads of tat from the Far East, then BP and the like wouldn’t extract loads of oil because there is no demand. It’s easy to blame BP and even the government, but until we change our ways nothing will change. |
It's a chicken and egg situation. Countries try and make laws to stop them doing what they do but they have massive lobbying arms that are very effective at blocking those laws from ever coming to fruition.
It's easy to blame them because for years they have funded efforts to rubbish the scientists that were sounding the alarms for decades but that no longer works so they pretend to be moving towards green energy whilst not really doing it.
Yes, if we all stopped participating then it would work but the likelihood of everyone collectively doing is that close to 0. It needs to come from a Government level.
A good example of this (and it's an American statistic) is that if you were to look at your "carbon footprint" before you do literally anything, just by merely existing over 50% of the total per year is made up of what the Government does. Because it's all the infrastructure that is made like roads we have no say in, or it's what the Government itself uses, or it's the military etc.
Fossil fuel companies have rigged the system is basically my point. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 09:27 - May 26 with 1196 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:12 - May 26 by Suffolktractor |
But if you, me and everyone else stopped going on flights, stopped driving cars and stopped importing food from around the world and loads of tat from the Far East, then BP and the like wouldn’t extract loads of oil because there is no demand. It’s easy to blame BP and even the government, but until we change our ways nothing will change. |
“BP and the like wouldn’t extract loads of oil because there is no demand”
Is factually incorrect- the petrochemical industry is huge and demand is continuing to grow. It’s used in everything from building roads to medicine. Perhaps we should call it ‘Just Stop (Burning) Oil’? [Post edited 26 May 2023 9:33]
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| Just Stop Oil on 09:28 - May 26 with 1192 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 08:15 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
We all can, and should, cut down where possible. I include myself in this, I'm by no means perfect. I take more flights than I should, probably on average a return short haul every other year over my life time.
But it's also worth remembering that if we take one fossil fuel company (BP in this example), per year they emit 273969870000 KGs of CO2 (33.9 megatons)
You'd have to over 1.2 billion short haul flights to do the damage that BP does in a single year. That's just ONE fossil fuel company. And that's with them having cut down.
To put that into perspective, you'd have to take a short-haul flight every single second for 30 years to do that. [Post edited 26 May 2023 8:16]
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BP only extracts oil because people buy the products they make. oil companies do not exist separately from oil consumption. if we as consumers bought less of their products - or things made or transported using their products - oil companies would produce less and emit less. the only thing that drives industry is final consumption. the idea that emissions by oil companies are separate from we what we do as consumers - 'nothing to do with me gov' - is the biggest cop out and logical fallacy imaginable. everyone who consumes it's product is responsible for their own share of that figures you quote for BP. Bp is only the instrument which gets the fossil fuel out of the ground and into your tank or into your plane. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 09:35 - May 26 with 1165 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:20 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
It's a chicken and egg situation. Countries try and make laws to stop them doing what they do but they have massive lobbying arms that are very effective at blocking those laws from ever coming to fruition.
It's easy to blame them because for years they have funded efforts to rubbish the scientists that were sounding the alarms for decades but that no longer works so they pretend to be moving towards green energy whilst not really doing it.
Yes, if we all stopped participating then it would work but the likelihood of everyone collectively doing is that close to 0. It needs to come from a Government level.
A good example of this (and it's an American statistic) is that if you were to look at your "carbon footprint" before you do literally anything, just by merely existing over 50% of the total per year is made up of what the Government does. Because it's all the infrastructure that is made like roads we have no say in, or it's what the Government itself uses, or it's the military etc.
Fossil fuel companies have rigged the system is basically my point. |
all of that stuff we consume in order to have our current life style. none of it's production exists separately from that consumption. we collectively consume infrastructure and all the rest. bp and all the rest pursue their strategies because there is an insatiable demand for what they produce. their profits are purely an expression of our desire to have their products. it's a real cop out to imagine that the economic systems and companies which meet our demands are separate from the life style we choose. blaming companies or 'industry' when we consume what they make and fund every single things they do is illogical and and extreme form of selective reasoning. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 09:46 - May 26 with 1132 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:28 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
BP only extracts oil because people buy the products they make. oil companies do not exist separately from oil consumption. if we as consumers bought less of their products - or things made or transported using their products - oil companies would produce less and emit less. the only thing that drives industry is final consumption. the idea that emissions by oil companies are separate from we what we do as consumers - 'nothing to do with me gov' - is the biggest cop out and logical fallacy imaginable. everyone who consumes it's product is responsible for their own share of that figures you quote for BP. Bp is only the instrument which gets the fossil fuel out of the ground and into your tank or into your plane. |
So all their lobbying and everything is just a-ok in your mind? Their years and years spent lying about climate change is hunky dorry and it's purely consumers that are to blame?
It's an unbelievably naive view.
And just to be clear, consumers are to blame as well as BP and others are, but I'd put as much weight (if not more) on the fossil fuel companies for their continuous stubbornness in actually changing that continues to this day. [Post edited 26 May 2023 9:54]
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| Just Stop Oil on 09:56 - May 26 with 1095 views | J2BLUE |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:46 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
So all their lobbying and everything is just a-ok in your mind? Their years and years spent lying about climate change is hunky dorry and it's purely consumers that are to blame?
It's an unbelievably naive view.
And just to be clear, consumers are to blame as well as BP and others are, but I'd put as much weight (if not more) on the fossil fuel companies for their continuous stubbornness in actually changing that continues to this day. [Post edited 26 May 2023 9:54]
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The lobbying etc is disgusting and they definitely have a nice big share of the blame but I think it's a relevant point that we can't just point at them and say they are the issue when we are all using oil every day. |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 09:57 - May 26 with 1096 views | BlueBadger |
| Just Stop Oil on 23:28 - May 25 by lowhouseblue |
am i safe in assuming that all those supporting this protest take at most one short-haul return flight every three years or one long-haul flight every eight years? or is all that nothing to do with the oil industry? |
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| Just Stop Oil on 10:05 - May 26 with 1082 views | lowhouseblue |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:46 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
So all their lobbying and everything is just a-ok in your mind? Their years and years spent lying about climate change is hunky dorry and it's purely consumers that are to blame?
It's an unbelievably naive view.
And just to be clear, consumers are to blame as well as BP and others are, but I'd put as much weight (if not more) on the fossil fuel companies for their continuous stubbornness in actually changing that continues to this day. [Post edited 26 May 2023 9:54]
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where did i say any of that? to be clear, they do what they do because there is insatiable consumer demand for what they produce. people want cheap fossil fuels to sustain their current life styles - that incentivises and rewards oil companies to do all the things they do. they adopt policies to produce as much as they can as cheaply as they can so as meet as much demand as they can. that's how they make profits - but those profits are simply an expression of consumers insatiable demand and willingness to pay for what they produce. we want lots of fuel, we want it cheap, oil companies are very clever at, and make their profits by, giving us what we want.
i know that modern life in the west is now hugely energy dependent and just saying no to oil is not an option for most people, we are collectively the worst form of addicts, but oil extraction and processing is completely inseparable from fuel consumption. people supporting 'just stop oil' while contemplating their next flight is extreme cognitive dissonance.
[it's like claiming i'm a vegan, because while i do consume meat and diary its produced by the agricultural / abattoirial industrial complex and therefore nothing to do with me. obviously if i killed the animals myself that would be my responsibility, but since someone else does, and we just then exchange money, the killing bit is nothing at all to do with me]. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 10:05 - May 26 with 1077 views | itfcjoe |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:46 - May 26 by DanTheMan |
So all their lobbying and everything is just a-ok in your mind? Their years and years spent lying about climate change is hunky dorry and it's purely consumers that are to blame?
It's an unbelievably naive view.
And just to be clear, consumers are to blame as well as BP and others are, but I'd put as much weight (if not more) on the fossil fuel companies for their continuous stubbornness in actually changing that continues to this day. [Post edited 26 May 2023 9:54]
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This is a great podcasts series on that
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000l7q1 |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 10:06 - May 26 with 1070 views | lowhouseblue |
it doesn't occur to you that in repeatedly posting the same cartoon you might be the smart arse in the well? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Just Stop Oil on 10:08 - May 26 with 1052 views | Herbivore |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:35 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
all of that stuff we consume in order to have our current life style. none of it's production exists separately from that consumption. we collectively consume infrastructure and all the rest. bp and all the rest pursue their strategies because there is an insatiable demand for what they produce. their profits are purely an expression of our desire to have their products. it's a real cop out to imagine that the economic systems and companies which meet our demands are separate from the life style we choose. blaming companies or 'industry' when we consume what they make and fund every single things they do is illogical and and extreme form of selective reasoning. |
You're right, companies and governments are just innocent slaves of consumers. How silly of us to think otherwise. |  |
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| Just Stop Oil on 10:09 - May 26 with 1046 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 09:56 - May 26 by J2BLUE |
The lobbying etc is disgusting and they definitely have a nice big share of the blame but I think it's a relevant point that we can't just point at them and say they are the issue when we are all using oil every day. |
I do agree, but in my opinion, they have quite the share.
It's not just them of course, we can take transportation as an example. How much have we given way to cars and built infrastructure for them over the past few decades vs building proper public transportation?
We even now build new housing estates without the local amenities in them and with no public transportation links so people have to get a car and that point you can't choose to run it on green energy so you have to use fuel.
The same goes for our homes, it's not like many, or really any of us has a choice about where our power comes from.
It'd be great if we all ate locally but that's really not all that simple to do. The simple thing to do would be to tax external markets to make the internal bits cheaper.
Expecting mass change from everyone overnight is just completely unrealistic. Blaming every day people doesn't overly help. We need proper legislation to deal with this and we need those firms lobbying to stop and actually do the things they say they are going to. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 10:11 - May 26 with 1040 views | DanTheMan |
| Just Stop Oil on 10:05 - May 26 by lowhouseblue |
where did i say any of that? to be clear, they do what they do because there is insatiable consumer demand for what they produce. people want cheap fossil fuels to sustain their current life styles - that incentivises and rewards oil companies to do all the things they do. they adopt policies to produce as much as they can as cheaply as they can so as meet as much demand as they can. that's how they make profits - but those profits are simply an expression of consumers insatiable demand and willingness to pay for what they produce. we want lots of fuel, we want it cheap, oil companies are very clever at, and make their profits by, giving us what we want.
i know that modern life in the west is now hugely energy dependent and just saying no to oil is not an option for most people, we are collectively the worst form of addicts, but oil extraction and processing is completely inseparable from fuel consumption. people supporting 'just stop oil' while contemplating their next flight is extreme cognitive dissonance.
[it's like claiming i'm a vegan, because while i do consume meat and diary its produced by the agricultural / abattoirial industrial complex and therefore nothing to do with me. obviously if i killed the animals myself that would be my responsibility, but since someone else does, and we just then exchange money, the killing bit is nothing at all to do with me]. |
"to be clear, they do what they do because there is insatiable consumer demand for what they produce"
No, they do what they do because it makes them profit. They didn't run campaigns disparaging climate science because that's what the consumers were clamouring for. You make it sound like their decisions are just made in a vacuum where they are entirely slaves to consumers. They literally knew what they were doing was wrong and not only did they go ahead and do it anyway, and lied about what they were doing and tried to convince everyone else that there wasn't a problem. | |
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| Just Stop Oil on 10:12 - May 26 with 1039 views | giant_stow |
| Just Stop Oil on 10:08 - May 26 by Herbivore |
You're right, companies and governments are just innocent slaves of consumers. How silly of us to think otherwise. |
Both Dan and Lowhouse are right. Dan for his point about lobbying and oil companies doing whatever they can to keep the show on the road. Lowhouse for pointing out that without demand, there'd be no oil companies and that putting the tab for emissions solely on them is a nonsense.
Edit: I'm available for further rulings should they be required. yours, judge ullaa, [Post edited 26 May 2023 10:13]
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