| Has it really come to this? 23:05 - Oct 22 with 19590 views | GlasgowBlue |
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| Has it really come to this? on 23:19 - Oct 22 with 9098 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
Sadly, yes.
From Putin, through Trump and Johnson, we are in a world where lying and denying, and doing so even when the evidence is plain, are seen as the most effective ways to ensure that ones preferred version of events wins out.
So, yes, this probably is the only way to counter the denialism.
But plenty will just say "It has taken them this long to edit and falsify the footage."
This has, completely understandably, hit you exceptionally hard. I would consider avoiding the news for a few days, for the sake of your own mental health. There are forms of transferred trauma, and I think you are showing signs of that.
Totally understand if you tell me to sod off, but thought it worth taking that risk. |  | | |
| Has it really come to this? on 23:50 - Oct 22 with 9018 views | redrickstuhaart |
I have yet to see anyone denying this atrocity... | | | |
| Has it really come to this? on 00:56 - Oct 23 with 8911 views | Whos_blue |
| Has it really come to this? on 23:50 - Oct 22 by redrickstuhaart |
I have yet to see anyone denying this atrocity... |
I'm confused by this.
Like you, I haven't seen this anywhere. I don't use social media but I know disgusting trolling goes on there. Is that it?
Whilst there is definitely a sea change of opinion regarding the ongoing military operation and associated humanitarian crisis in Gaza, not one sane person could even suggest the Hamas atrocity didn't occur.
What is this move seeking to achieve? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Has it really come to this? on 06:59 - Oct 23 with 8712 views | Darth_Koont |
This is the Israeli government spokesman pushing propaganda/putting on the pressure as the attention of foreign press and its criticism rightly switches to Israel’s ongoing and criminal retaliation.
Can you be better at checking your sources and their claims? We really shouldn’t be promoting the narratives and framing of events by the more extreme cheerleaders for Palestinian destruction. |  |
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| Has it really come to this? on 07:37 - Oct 23 with 8613 views | nodge_blue |
| Has it really come to this? on 06:59 - Oct 23 by Darth_Koont |
This is the Israeli government spokesman pushing propaganda/putting on the pressure as the attention of foreign press and its criticism rightly switches to Israel’s ongoing and criminal retaliation.
Can you be better at checking your sources and their claims? We really shouldn’t be promoting the narratives and framing of events by the more extreme cheerleaders for Palestinian destruction. |
Pushing propaganda. Promoting narratives. Framing of events. Check their claims.
Hold on a second here. What exactly are you suggesting?
I don’t think it’s framing an event to suggest several hundred men, women and children were slaughtered coldly in their own houses by Hamas.
I think most wish for Israel to not embark on a campaign of revenge, but you can’t deny their pain over what happened or their concern about how to make their citizens safe from such a future event.
[Post edited 23 Oct 2023 7:41]
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| Has it really come to this? on 07:49 - Oct 23 with 8538 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Has it really come to this? on 00:56 - Oct 23 by Whos_blue |
I'm confused by this.
Like you, I haven't seen this anywhere. I don't use social media but I know disgusting trolling goes on there. Is that it?
Whilst there is definitely a sea change of opinion regarding the ongoing military operation and associated humanitarian crisis in Gaza, not one sane person could even suggest the Hamas atrocity didn't occur.
What is this move seeking to achieve? |
Exactly the same here. I’ve seen no denial at all and the murders were reported in all the press. But I’m also not on the socials. |  |
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| Has it really come to this? on 07:56 - Oct 23 with 8492 views | StokieBlue |
| Has it really come to this? on 07:49 - Oct 23 by Swansea_Blue |
Exactly the same here. I’ve seen no denial at all and the murders were reported in all the press. But I’m also not on the socials. |
I struggle to see how this would apply to the socials though?
They are inviting journalists and I haven't seen any denial from journalists. If there is no denial from journalists then how does this change anything in the socials?
If you read the comments on the tweet there are people calling for journalists who don't attend to be blacklisted or labelled as propagating fake news.
The Tweet is invoking some of the most emotive language possible for something that doesn't seem to be happening. Perhaps GB has some examples of where this horrible attack is being denied by legitimate media but I've not seen any.
SB [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 7:57]
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| Has it really come to this? on 08:01 - Oct 23 with 8454 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
I haven't seen it either but I have seen this....
'Two activists from a Jewish-Arab peace movement were recently detained in Israel for putting up posters with a message that the police deemed to be offensive. The message was: “Jews and Arabs, we will get through this together.”
The activists, members of Standing Together, had their posters confiscated, as well as T-shirts printed with peace slogans in Hebrew and Arabic.
It was not an isolated incident. Across Israel, people are being detained, fired from their jobs, and even attacked for expressing sentiments interpreted by some as showing sympathy for Hamas after the group’s murderous attack on 7 October.
The definition of pro-Hamas is often widened to include expressions of sympathy for the plight of Palestinian children trapped in Gaza, or calls for peace, especially if expressed in both Arabic and Hebrew.
Last week, after 15 years of service at a Petah Tikva hospital, its director of the cardiac intensive care unit was suspended from his position.
Abed Samara’s apparent offence was his profile picture on social media – a dove carrying an olive twig and a green flag emblazoned with the shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith: “There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.” He had adopted the picture last year, long before the Hamas attack, but it was nevertheless seen as somehow voicing support for the outrage.'
It's almost like it suits the aims of the Israel state to inflame division at every possible opportunity. |  |
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| Has it really come to this? on 08:02 - Oct 23 with 8444 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Has it really come to this? on 07:56 - Oct 23 by StokieBlue |
I struggle to see how this would apply to the socials though?
They are inviting journalists and I haven't seen any denial from journalists. If there is no denial from journalists then how does this change anything in the socials?
If you read the comments on the tweet there are people calling for journalists who don't attend to be blacklisted or labelled as propagating fake news.
The Tweet is invoking some of the most emotive language possible for something that doesn't seem to be happening. Perhaps GB has some examples of where this horrible attack is being denied by legitimate media but I've not seen any.
SB [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 7:57]
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So this feeling is aimed at the journalists then? That sounds very strange and is certainly at odds with UK journalists, who in the main seem to have covered the Hamas attacks well. They continue to talk about the impact on the communities and the missing hostages. | |
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| Has it really come to this? on 08:08 - Oct 23 with 8407 views | LeoMuff |
| Has it really come to this? on 07:37 - Oct 23 by nodge_blue |
Pushing propaganda. Promoting narratives. Framing of events. Check their claims.
Hold on a second here. What exactly are you suggesting?
I don’t think it’s framing an event to suggest several hundred men, women and children were slaughtered coldly in their own houses by Hamas.
I think most wish for Israel to not embark on a campaign of revenge, but you can’t deny their pain over what happened or their concern about how to make their citizens safe from such a future event.
[Post edited 23 Oct 2023 7:41]
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It’s an attempt to keep the focus on the terrible events of 7th October, to obscure the fact that killing nearly 2000 children and 5000 total in Palestinian lands is ok. |  |
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| Has it really come to this? on 08:20 - Oct 23 with 8332 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has it really come to this? on 07:37 - Oct 23 by nodge_blue |
Pushing propaganda. Promoting narratives. Framing of events. Check their claims.
Hold on a second here. What exactly are you suggesting?
I don’t think it’s framing an event to suggest several hundred men, women and children were slaughtered coldly in their own houses by Hamas.
I think most wish for Israel to not embark on a campaign of revenge, but you can’t deny their pain over what happened or their concern about how to make their citizens safe from such a future event.
[Post edited 23 Oct 2023 7:41]
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I’m not talking about the horrific Hamas massacre. It is disgusting on its own terms and no-one credible is denying that or trying to downplay it.
It’s the claim that there is a denialism surrounding the attacks with the foreign press at the centre.
But as a rule of thumb we shouldn’t be pushing any line from the Israeli government uncritically, especially during a war. They are proven extremists and their claims and particularly how they frame them can’t be taken as read.
There are plenty of objective, independent and still totally damning accounts of the terror and death the Israelis have suffered and the trauma they continue to suffer from. And that don’t dehumanise the Palestinian civilians, negate their human rights and justify a barbaric retaliation. | |
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| Has it really come to this? on 08:27 - Oct 23 with 8277 views | Herbivore |
As others have mentioned, I've not seen the denialism referenced in the OP but I similarly have been avoiding social media over this because it's a cesspit of disinformation and misinformation perpetrated by bad actors of all persuasions. I certainly haven't seen any questioning of events in the traditional media, far from it. |  |
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| Has it really come to this? on 08:41 - Oct 23 with 8186 views | nodge_blue |
| Has it really come to this? on 08:20 - Oct 23 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not talking about the horrific Hamas massacre. It is disgusting on its own terms and no-one credible is denying that or trying to downplay it.
It’s the claim that there is a denialism surrounding the attacks with the foreign press at the centre.
But as a rule of thumb we shouldn’t be pushing any line from the Israeli government uncritically, especially during a war. They are proven extremists and their claims and particularly how they frame them can’t be taken as read.
There are plenty of objective, independent and still totally damning accounts of the terror and death the Israelis have suffered and the trauma they continue to suffer from. And that don’t dehumanise the Palestinian civilians, negate their human rights and justify a barbaric retaliation. |
I think what you’ve written there is fair enough.
What I’m concerned about though is a narrative where the attacks do get denied or down played.
The rest is politics podcast with the ambassador to uk of the PLO, I thought was very good. He gave an articulate and empathetic argument for the Palestinian cause. The only bit I had issue with on there was he said he still needed to see verified reports of tbe Hamas attacks. Alistair Campbell said after the interview had finished to Rory he was uncomfortable with that but didn’t want to stop the flow of the interview. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 8:44]
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| Has it really come to this? on 08:55 - Oct 23 with 8123 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has it really come to this? on 08:41 - Oct 23 by nodge_blue |
I think what you’ve written there is fair enough.
What I’m concerned about though is a narrative where the attacks do get denied or down played.
The rest is politics podcast with the ambassador to uk of the PLO, I thought was very good. He gave an articulate and empathetic argument for the Palestinian cause. The only bit I had issue with on there was he said he still needed to see verified reports of tbe Hamas attacks. Alistair Campbell said after the interview had finished to Rory he was uncomfortable with that but didn’t want to stop the flow of the interview. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 8:44]
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No worries. I think we agree on the important stuff. And also that the Palestinian ambassador Zomlot is a much-needed voice — as he has been for several years, but especially now when the extreme voices on both sides hold too much sway.
There have been questions about the beheaded babies rumour a week ago. Not that this denies the underlying truth and inhumanity of the massacres, just that news like this unchecked can help justify escalation and even more extreme responses.
But it’s a propaganda war as well for the hearts and minds around the world so we need to accept that and be on our guard. As I said, there’s no shortage of credible information and reporting out there so there’s just no need to stray to the more extreme views and opinions. | |
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| Has it really come to this? on 09:28 - Oct 23 with 8009 views | NthQldITFC |
| Has it really come to this? on 08:08 - Oct 23 by LeoMuff |
It’s an attempt to keep the focus on the terrible events of 7th October, to obscure the fact that killing nearly 2000 children and 5000 total in Palestinian lands is ok. |
That would appear to be the cold hard truth of it. As everyone else is saying, there's no denial of the obscenity of the Hamas attack from any serious media outlet. This looks to be a pre-emptive propaganda move to justify what is about happening now and what is about to happen, and presumably is aimed chiefly at a US audience. The UN, as ever, is useless. |  |
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| Has it really come to this? on 09:36 - Oct 23 with 7957 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has it really come to this? on 09:28 - Oct 23 by NthQldITFC |
That would appear to be the cold hard truth of it. As everyone else is saying, there's no denial of the obscenity of the Hamas attack from any serious media outlet. This looks to be a pre-emptive propaganda move to justify what is about happening now and what is about to happen, and presumably is aimed chiefly at a US audience. The UN, as ever, is useless. |
To be fair to the UN, they’ve been made useless now and in the past by us and the other self-interested major powers and vetoers on the UN Security Council.
The UN could and should be exactly the kind of bilateral and ultimately neutral organization the world and Israel-Palestine needs right now. But we’re seemingly happier to marginalise and ignore them. | |
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| Has it really come to this? on 09:42 - Oct 23 with 7908 views | NthQldITFC |
| Has it really come to this? on 09:36 - Oct 23 by Darth_Koont |
To be fair to the UN, they’ve been made useless now and in the past by us and the other self-interested major powers and vetoers on the UN Security Council.
The UN could and should be exactly the kind of bilateral and ultimately neutral organization the world and Israel-Palestine needs right now. But we’re seemingly happier to marginalise and ignore them. |
Yes, I mean the UN as an entity is useless, rather than most of the individuals which form it. Perhaps worse than useless as its existence inhibits the creation of anything useful in its place. | |
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| Has it really come to this? on 09:52 - Oct 23 with 7841 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has it really come to this? on 09:42 - Oct 23 by NthQldITFC |
Yes, I mean the UN as an entity is useless, rather than most of the individuals which form it. Perhaps worse than useless as its existence inhibits the creation of anything useful in its place. |
We’d subvert and limit that new organisation’s powers too.
The root cause for the lack of an international response to the decades of conflict in the region, other injustices and wars around the world, climate change, disease, famine, human rights abuses and social injustice more widely, is that we and other major countries put ourselves and our own self-interest first. | |
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| Has it really come to this? on 10:28 - Oct 23 with 7703 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Has it really come to this? on 09:28 - Oct 23 by NthQldITFC |
That would appear to be the cold hard truth of it. As everyone else is saying, there's no denial of the obscenity of the Hamas attack from any serious media outlet. This looks to be a pre-emptive propaganda move to justify what is about happening now and what is about to happen, and presumably is aimed chiefly at a US audience. The UN, as ever, is useless. |
Unfortunately there has been quibbling over the details of what exactly the attackers did or didn't do to the victims:
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| Has it really come to this? on 11:15 - Oct 23 with 7559 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Has it really come to this? on 07:56 - Oct 23 by StokieBlue |
I struggle to see how this would apply to the socials though?
They are inviting journalists and I haven't seen any denial from journalists. If there is no denial from journalists then how does this change anything in the socials?
If you read the comments on the tweet there are people calling for journalists who don't attend to be blacklisted or labelled as propagating fake news.
The Tweet is invoking some of the most emotive language possible for something that doesn't seem to be happening. Perhaps GB has some examples of where this horrible attack is being denied by legitimate media but I've not seen any.
SB [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 7:57]
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I’ve been out this morning and am not going to get bogged down in semantics over this dreadful masacre.
Clapham junction has already linked Novara’s Michael Walker. Are novara serious? Well they are often quoted on here as a serious news source, have a big reach in the left side of politics and are regularly invited to comment on Sky News, BBC News and Question Time.
Add to that the number of so called moderate Palestinian voices that have been interviewed on the news channels have been denying some of the more vile acts of brutality took place and dressing it up as legitimate resistance.
And then we have ITV News platforming a presenter from Iran’s antisemitic Press TV channel.
Not many credible people are denying that Israeli civilians were murdered. But they are arguing the toss over whether babies were decapitated or merely shot in the back of the head, as if this is a far more humane execution. We even had it in here for a few days.
So yes, it has come to this. I won’t be commenting any further, unless somebody posts something so outrageous that it needs challenging. I’ve made my point. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 11:40]
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| Has it really come to this? on 11:49 - Oct 23 with 7412 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Has it really come to this? on 11:15 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve been out this morning and am not going to get bogged down in semantics over this dreadful masacre.
Clapham junction has already linked Novara’s Michael Walker. Are novara serious? Well they are often quoted on here as a serious news source, have a big reach in the left side of politics and are regularly invited to comment on Sky News, BBC News and Question Time.
Add to that the number of so called moderate Palestinian voices that have been interviewed on the news channels have been denying some of the more vile acts of brutality took place and dressing it up as legitimate resistance.
And then we have ITV News platforming a presenter from Iran’s antisemitic Press TV channel.
Not many credible people are denying that Israeli civilians were murdered. But they are arguing the toss over whether babies were decapitated or merely shot in the back of the head, as if this is a far more humane execution. We even had it in here for a few days.
So yes, it has come to this. I won’t be commenting any further, unless somebody posts something so outrageous that it needs challenging. I’ve made my point. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 11:40]
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Most of us have not ever even heard of Novara or Michael Walker. | | | |
| Has it really come to this? on 11:58 - Oct 23 with 7375 views | leitrimblue |
| Has it really come to this? on 11:49 - Oct 23 by redrickstuhaart |
Most of us have not ever even heard of Novara or Michael Walker. |
Yer but the far right apartheid state of Israeli as to do something in a desperate attempt to deflect from the thousands of innocent children they are currently murdering in Gaza |  | | |
| Has it really come to this? on 12:01 - Oct 23 with 7362 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Has it really come to this? on 11:15 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
I’ve been out this morning and am not going to get bogged down in semantics over this dreadful masacre.
Clapham junction has already linked Novara’s Michael Walker. Are novara serious? Well they are often quoted on here as a serious news source, have a big reach in the left side of politics and are regularly invited to comment on Sky News, BBC News and Question Time.
Add to that the number of so called moderate Palestinian voices that have been interviewed on the news channels have been denying some of the more vile acts of brutality took place and dressing it up as legitimate resistance.
And then we have ITV News platforming a presenter from Iran’s antisemitic Press TV channel.
Not many credible people are denying that Israeli civilians were murdered. But they are arguing the toss over whether babies were decapitated or merely shot in the back of the head, as if this is a far more humane execution. We even had it in here for a few days.
So yes, it has come to this. I won’t be commenting any further, unless somebody posts something so outrageous that it needs challenging. I’ve made my point. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 11:40]
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I haven't seen any of ITV's coverage but I would be amazed if they are denying the reality of the Hamas terror attacks or failed to report them either which is the thrust of the content of the OP.
Unfortunately, the horror of the attack is being used to justify horrific retaliation rather than any real attempt to find and deal with the terrorists.
It is right that the World's media highlight the suffering of the poorest wherever that is. Right now, the on-going injustice is in Gaza. No one should forget that of Israel but it doesn't justify the current retaliation either. |  |
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| Has it really come to this? on 12:04 - Oct 23 with 7342 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Has it really come to this? on 11:58 - Oct 23 by leitrimblue |
Yer but the far right apartheid state of Israeli as to do something in a desperate attempt to deflect from the thousands of innocent children they are currently murdering in Gaza |
Unfortunately, I think this is probably correct. Even if there are small scale agenda driven groups or people raising questions, the approach of dragging media in to view things that they have already reported and do not quibble over looks very much like agenda setting.
It is possible, given the sensitivities, that it is a genuine, but perhaps misplaced position. More likely though it is about setting a narrative and making it easier to shut down criticism by referencing the holocaust and denial. | | | |
| Has it really come to this? on 12:23 - Oct 23 with 7248 views | Darth_Koont |
| Has it really come to this? on 10:28 - Oct 23 by Clapham_Junction |
Unfortunately there has been quibbling over the details of what exactly the attackers did or didn't do to the victims:
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I don't think that Novara or Michael Walker are quibbling about the details.
Quite rightly, they were/are concerned with unconfirmed reports being spread as confirmed news by the sheer weight of coverage of the reports themselves. Something it seems that Biden himself got on the wrong side of last week.
Journalists have a duty to establish the facts or at least have several sources and as independent and reliable as possible. But especially during a war where tensions, emotions are understandably at the very limit. As well as any escalations that these fuel.
Anyone who is denying the attacks happened, saying that they were military in nature rather than horrifically targeting civilians, or is quibbling with the details in order to cast doubt on any of the above is part of the problem. But we still need better and more responsible standards of journalism too. | |
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