| So in a protest for peace 10:20 - Nov 12 with 18176 views | GlasgowBlue |
Peter Tatchell was stopped from marching for holding sings saying
“Free Palestine”.
“Armistice Now”.
“End Israel’s Occupation”. (Twice)
“End Hamas’s Sexist, Homophobic, AntiHuman Rights Dictatorship”
What part did the organisers disagree with?
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| So in a protest for peace on 21:08 - Nov 13 with 2406 views | eireblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 15:42 - Nov 13 by LankHenners |
I take the point but the march was specifically pro-Palestinian and organised in part (I can't off the top of my head remember the names of all of them) by groups who have long been critical of Israel's occupation and are therefore protesting against what they see as the government's lack of action in stopping Israel's current offensive which is causing a huge amount of civilian death.
In other words, the government has already strongly criticised Hamas and has openly backed Israel to respond to their attack. The march is essentially 'Palestinians would like a bit of support as well please'.
That's just the way things are with all protests really, like it or not. Think most are aware issues are more complex than how a march represents them but, to refer to a previous point, if the central message was watered down too much it would take away from the thrust of the argument and make the whole thing a bit pointless in the first place. |
Hmmm, I think Lowhouse and GB are raising perfectly valid points.
An analogy seems appropriate.
What are people supposed to in a football crowd, when a fellow Town supporter starts shouting homophobic or racists chants.
Is it,
We are supposed to feel a little bit awkward, but we are all here together supporting Ipswich, so there’s that.
Or
Not tolerate it, and get the person kicked out.
I thought the March was meant to be pro-peace, pro-ceasefire, and to advocate for the human rights of humans leaving in Gaza.
Hamas, is anti-peace, anti-ceasefire and has been repressing the human rights of people in Gaza for 15 years.
Pointing out any support for Hamas, and any antisemitism is not just an issue for the police, but also the crowd and organisers. Surely, in the same way we see posts about minority behaviour in a football crowd, the same is true in this case, it doesn’t dilute the purpose of the March or the wider movement. |  | | |
| So in a protest for peace on 21:42 - Nov 13 with 2359 views | Trequartista |
| So in a protest for peace on 23:42 - Nov 12 by orfordbuoy |
but today a lad was banned by Phil for saying something along the lines that multiculturism is not working - which is valid opinion among the population as a whole. A poster took the easy path and accused him of being a racist and Phil banned him. Debate shut done.
The problem here is the 'left' can call the 'right' a racist, but the 'right' has nothing simlar to fight back with. This could explain the huge imbalance on here, in particular and the media, in general. |
I would be very surprised if there was not more to it than that, but I didn't see it so can't comment. |  |
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| So in a protest for peace on 21:59 - Nov 13 with 2325 views | LankHenners |
| So in a protest for peace on 21:08 - Nov 13 by eireblue |
Hmmm, I think Lowhouse and GB are raising perfectly valid points.
An analogy seems appropriate.
What are people supposed to in a football crowd, when a fellow Town supporter starts shouting homophobic or racists chants.
Is it,
We are supposed to feel a little bit awkward, but we are all here together supporting Ipswich, so there’s that.
Or
Not tolerate it, and get the person kicked out.
I thought the March was meant to be pro-peace, pro-ceasefire, and to advocate for the human rights of humans leaving in Gaza.
Hamas, is anti-peace, anti-ceasefire and has been repressing the human rights of people in Gaza for 15 years.
Pointing out any support for Hamas, and any antisemitism is not just an issue for the police, but also the crowd and organisers. Surely, in the same way we see posts about minority behaviour in a football crowd, the same is true in this case, it doesn’t dilute the purpose of the March or the wider movement. |
Think you're barking up the wrong tree a bit here as I'm not commenting about anyone saying something pro-Hamas at the march which is obviously bad and should be stamped out because if nothing else, as you imply, it gives fuel to the fire to the likes of Braverman calling all these marches 'pro-Hamas', 'pro-hate' etc.
To borrow a word from another thread, you're conflating two different issues. |  |
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| So in a protest for peace on 08:04 - Nov 14 with 2194 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 21:08 - Nov 13 by eireblue |
Hmmm, I think Lowhouse and GB are raising perfectly valid points.
An analogy seems appropriate.
What are people supposed to in a football crowd, when a fellow Town supporter starts shouting homophobic or racists chants.
Is it,
We are supposed to feel a little bit awkward, but we are all here together supporting Ipswich, so there’s that.
Or
Not tolerate it, and get the person kicked out.
I thought the March was meant to be pro-peace, pro-ceasefire, and to advocate for the human rights of humans leaving in Gaza.
Hamas, is anti-peace, anti-ceasefire and has been repressing the human rights of people in Gaza for 15 years.
Pointing out any support for Hamas, and any antisemitism is not just an issue for the police, but also the crowd and organisers. Surely, in the same way we see posts about minority behaviour in a football crowd, the same is true in this case, it doesn’t dilute the purpose of the March or the wider movement. |
I thought we were meant to be against bombing children. But apparently it’s allowable because of LGBT rights and the Nazis. Or whatever other propaganda and misrepresentation the Israeli state and its supporters want to make of those being illegally killed or those who support a ceasefire.
Rather than debate what crowds of hundreds of thousands should have done about antisemitism and offensive imagery they wouldn’t have seen or heard given the actual tiny amount of incidents, I’d rather question those who aren’t just standing by and allowing genocide and war crimes but have become apologists for the atrocities.
So why? And why do you think you know better than the UN or the WHO? |  |
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| So in a protest for peace on 09:11 - Nov 14 with 2114 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 08:04 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
I thought we were meant to be against bombing children. But apparently it’s allowable because of LGBT rights and the Nazis. Or whatever other propaganda and misrepresentation the Israeli state and its supporters want to make of those being illegally killed or those who support a ceasefire.
Rather than debate what crowds of hundreds of thousands should have done about antisemitism and offensive imagery they wouldn’t have seen or heard given the actual tiny amount of incidents, I’d rather question those who aren’t just standing by and allowing genocide and war crimes but have become apologists for the atrocities.
So why? And why do you think you know better than the UN or the WHO? |
the thread was about whether someone should have been excluded from a peace march for having a placard that was critical of hamas. and your response now is that it was "propaganda and misrepresentation the Israeli state and its supporters want to make". |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 09:38 - Nov 14 with 2060 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So in a protest for peace on 09:11 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
the thread was about whether someone should have been excluded from a peace march for having a placard that was critical of hamas. and your response now is that it was "propaganda and misrepresentation the Israeli state and its supporters want to make". |
Of course it is propaganda. Gaza is a tolerant and safe haven for members of the LGBT community.
Those videos of Hamas throwing gay men off the roofs of buildings are a misrepresentation.
Those lovely fellas from Hamas were actually trying to talk down the men who were trying to take their own lives. Unfortunately, in their efforts to save them they accidently slipped and knocked them flying off the edge. | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 10:07 - Nov 14 with 2008 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 09:11 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
the thread was about whether someone should have been excluded from a peace march for having a placard that was critical of hamas. and your response now is that it was "propaganda and misrepresentation the Israeli state and its supporters want to make". |
Absolutely.
Where better to address this than on the thread where the unfair and unrepresentative mischaracterisation of the march and the supporters of a ceasefire is being repeated?
Standard MO for you boys, I hasten to add. | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 10:14 - Nov 14 with 1980 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 10:07 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
Absolutely.
Where better to address this than on the thread where the unfair and unrepresentative mischaracterisation of the march and the supporters of a ceasefire is being repeated?
Standard MO for you boys, I hasten to add. |
and your line is that tatchell in criticising hamas was promoting propaganda and misrepresentation for the israeli state and its supporters. wow. you're even out corbyning corbyn. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 10:23 - Nov 14 with 1934 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 10:14 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
and your line is that tatchell in criticising hamas was promoting propaganda and misrepresentation for the israeli state and its supporters. wow. you're even out corbyning corbyn. |
Tatchell’s role and aims are more complicated so I’d give him the benefit of the doubt.
But this is certainly what you do. Time and time again.
Why are you apologists for war crimes and an unfolding genocide? | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 10:33 - Nov 14 with 1900 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 10:23 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
Tatchell’s role and aims are more complicated so I’d give him the benefit of the doubt.
But this is certainly what you do. Time and time again.
Why are you apologists for war crimes and an unfolding genocide? |
what we do? you mean repeating what you've said back to you? you really see criticism of hamas as israeli propaganda. that's really not a nice place to be. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 10:52 - Nov 14 with 1841 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 10:33 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
what we do? you mean repeating what you've said back to you? you really see criticism of hamas as israeli propaganda. that's really not a nice place to be. |
Eh?
I don’t know anyone who doesn’t criticise Hamas, certainly for the horrific massacre they committed last month and previous attacks.
I’m talking about those who want to smear the protesters as Hamas supporters per se or not caring about LGBT rights, the Holocaust or whatever else is being thrown at them. In EXACTLY the same way the Israeli regime is justifying its inhumane bombardment and genocidal treatment of 2.2. million Gazan civilians, a million of whom are children FFS.
Why are you so keen to dismiss and marginalise what the protest was 99% about: peace and a ceasefire to end war crimes? | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 10:57 - Nov 14 with 1810 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 10:52 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
Eh?
I don’t know anyone who doesn’t criticise Hamas, certainly for the horrific massacre they committed last month and previous attacks.
I’m talking about those who want to smear the protesters as Hamas supporters per se or not caring about LGBT rights, the Holocaust or whatever else is being thrown at them. In EXACTLY the same way the Israeli regime is justifying its inhumane bombardment and genocidal treatment of 2.2. million Gazan civilians, a million of whom are children FFS.
Why are you so keen to dismiss and marginalise what the protest was 99% about: peace and a ceasefire to end war crimes? |
so just to be clear. you do now think that hamas in gaza represents a sexist, homophobic, and antihuman rights dictatorship and saying that isn't a form of israeli propaganda? your previous posts suggested otherwise. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 12:08 - Nov 14 with 1718 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 10:57 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
so just to be clear. you do now think that hamas in gaza represents a sexist, homophobic, and antihuman rights dictatorship and saying that isn't a form of israeli propaganda? your previous posts suggested otherwise. |
Again ... eh?
I think you’re conflating separate arguments to dismiss and delegitimise opposition to genocide. And using every single fallacious argument you can find.
Why? What is it about the hard-right racist Israeli regime and its justification for genocide that you find so appealing? | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 12:51 - Nov 14 with 1641 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 12:08 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
Again ... eh?
I think you’re conflating separate arguments to dismiss and delegitimise opposition to genocide. And using every single fallacious argument you can find.
Why? What is it about the hard-right racist Israeli regime and its justification for genocide that you find so appealing? |
so you don't think that hamas in gaza represents a sexist, homophobic, and antihuman rights dictatorship and saying so is a form of israeli propaganda?? you seem very reluctant to settle on an answer.
intentionally miss using words like genocide also makes you look very dishonest. all wars tragically involve civilian casualties and by your apparent logic that would make all wars genocide. genocide has a specific meaning which isn't met in this situation - it isn't just a big word for something bad. the only occasion in all this when people have set out with the sole purpose of killing civilians because of their ethnicity or religion was 7th october. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 12:57 - Nov 14 with 1611 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| So in a protest for peace on 12:38 - Nov 12 by DJR |
It is a little-known fact that three out of the four co-founders of Momentum (the organisation set up to support Corbyn) were Jewish.
The most prominent was Jon Lansman and I think this is an interesting development.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/12/momentum-founder-jon-lansman-sa
As it is, whilst of the left (and in today's terms very left), I have never really understood the commitment that many people of the so-called hard left have for the Palestine cause. [Post edited 12 Nov 2023 12:42]
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There's a lot of words in that article, and Lansman is careful and considered in his choice of them.
Neither Braverman, nor those spouting hate in some of those videos taken during the march, seem interested in anything other than a "win" for themselves and getting the biggest reaction possible. |  | | |
| So in a protest for peace on 12:58 - Nov 14 with 1606 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 12:51 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
so you don't think that hamas in gaza represents a sexist, homophobic, and antihuman rights dictatorship and saying so is a form of israeli propaganda?? you seem very reluctant to settle on an answer.
intentionally miss using words like genocide also makes you look very dishonest. all wars tragically involve civilian casualties and by your apparent logic that would make all wars genocide. genocide has a specific meaning which isn't met in this situation - it isn't just a big word for something bad. the only occasion in all this when people have set out with the sole purpose of killing civilians because of their ethnicity or religion was 7th october. |
I know you don’t think it’s genocide, that much is clear. But what else do you call targeting civilians for bombings and collective punishment by a larger force who have been talking in genocidal terms?
And even helping carry out ethnic cleansing in the separate and supposedly normal West Bank?
Where is the line you are seemingly waiting for? | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:00 - Nov 14 with 1599 views | positivity |
| So in a protest for peace on 12:51 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
so you don't think that hamas in gaza represents a sexist, homophobic, and antihuman rights dictatorship and saying so is a form of israeli propaganda?? you seem very reluctant to settle on an answer.
intentionally miss using words like genocide also makes you look very dishonest. all wars tragically involve civilian casualties and by your apparent logic that would make all wars genocide. genocide has a specific meaning which isn't met in this situation - it isn't just a big word for something bad. the only occasion in all this when people have set out with the sole purpose of killing civilians because of their ethnicity or religion was 7th october. |
i have darth on my (very short) ignore list, so I won't comment on any specific things he might be alleging, but genocide is defined as intentionally destroying a group of people.
so, while netanyahu and co are behaving apallingly, their aim clearly isn't the destruction of the arabic/palestinian people, so aren't genocidal. terms like that should be used properly | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:05 - Nov 14 with 1579 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 13:00 - Nov 14 by positivity |
i have darth on my (very short) ignore list, so I won't comment on any specific things he might be alleging, but genocide is defined as intentionally destroying a group of people.
so, while netanyahu and co are behaving apallingly, their aim clearly isn't the destruction of the arabic/palestinian people, so aren't genocidal. terms like that should be used properly |
Well, with all due respect, you need to pay a lot more attention if you think that’s “clearly” not their aim.
Especially when that’s the result on the ground. | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:09 - Nov 14 with 1552 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 12:58 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
I know you don’t think it’s genocide, that much is clear. But what else do you call targeting civilians for bombings and collective punishment by a larger force who have been talking in genocidal terms?
And even helping carry out ethnic cleansing in the separate and supposedly normal West Bank?
Where is the line you are seemingly waiting for? |
israel isn't targeting civilians. you can certainly criticise it for the risks it is taking with civilians, whether it should do more to protect them, and whether it's action is proportionate, but it's intent is clearly to target hamas (who are using the civilians as a shield). again the intent is to remove hamas (you can certainly question whether that is feasible) but collective punishment isn't the israeli motivation - it is removing the iran funded group who carried out the 7/10 attack and routinely fire rockets at it. if hamas weren't hiding beneath the civilian population the civilian casualties would be much lower - that clearly isn't something israel has chosen. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:15 - Nov 14 with 1520 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 13:09 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
israel isn't targeting civilians. you can certainly criticise it for the risks it is taking with civilians, whether it should do more to protect them, and whether it's action is proportionate, but it's intent is clearly to target hamas (who are using the civilians as a shield). again the intent is to remove hamas (you can certainly question whether that is feasible) but collective punishment isn't the israeli motivation - it is removing the iran funded group who carried out the 7/10 attack and routinely fire rockets at it. if hamas weren't hiding beneath the civilian population the civilian casualties would be much lower - that clearly isn't something israel has chosen. |
Thanks for the Likud party line.
Yes, they are targeting civilians as they’re blaming Hamas for using civilians as human shields but clearly aren’t following the Geneva convention re: how to deal with human shields by ensuring that the response is proportionate to minimise losses.
The attack on Gaza and its people is illegal under international law and with clear evidence of war crimes. Stop apologising for it and the racists who are pushing it. | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:22 - Nov 14 with 1484 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 13:15 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
Thanks for the Likud party line.
Yes, they are targeting civilians as they’re blaming Hamas for using civilians as human shields but clearly aren’t following the Geneva convention re: how to deal with human shields by ensuring that the response is proportionate to minimise losses.
The attack on Gaza and its people is illegal under international law and with clear evidence of war crimes. Stop apologising for it and the racists who are pushing it. |
you have no evidence to support any of these allegations. proportionate also involves assessing alternatives - no one has offered any alternatives. i agree that israel must do more to protect the civilian population - and they need achievable aims which can be achieved quickly and with an exit strategy - all of those are legitimate criticisms of israel. but i wouldn't challenge their legal or moral right to attack hamas in the slightest. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:28 - Nov 14 with 1452 views | Darth_Koont |
| So in a protest for peace on 13:22 - Nov 14 by lowhouseblue |
you have no evidence to support any of these allegations. proportionate also involves assessing alternatives - no one has offered any alternatives. i agree that israel must do more to protect the civilian population - and they need achievable aims which can be achieved quickly and with an exit strategy - all of those are legitimate criticisms of israel. but i wouldn't challenge their legal or moral right to attack hamas in the slightest. |
A ceasefire will stop more Palestinian children being killed by the thousand. And dialogue rather than the worsening cycle of violence is what is needed to move towards a lasting peace and more security/better wellbeing/better respect for human rights for both sets of civilians.
You disagree and want to dismiss/delegitimise that alternative and the people pushing for it. And I’m not at all shocked to see you own it. | |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:46 - Nov 14 with 1398 views | lowhouseblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 13:28 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
A ceasefire will stop more Palestinian children being killed by the thousand. And dialogue rather than the worsening cycle of violence is what is needed to move towards a lasting peace and more security/better wellbeing/better respect for human rights for both sets of civilians.
You disagree and want to dismiss/delegitimise that alternative and the people pushing for it. And I’m not at all shocked to see you own it. |
but when you say a ceasefire you just mean israel stopping it's action - you have nothing at all to suggest any possibility of hamas laying down it's arms, releasing the hostages, entering into dialogue, or stepping back from its aim of destroying israel. such a one sided demand doesn't offer any solution. there can't be a ceasefire with israeli troops still in gaza - they would be a sitting target. israel withdrawing is the only end to it - and for longer-term solutions then to be found - and my worry is whether the israeli strategy provides for that in a sensible (short) timescale. they need a proper exit strategy that can be expressed in weeks and not longer - the worry is that they don't have one. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So in a protest for peace on 13:53 - Nov 14 with 1364 views | eireblue |
| So in a protest for peace on 08:04 - Nov 14 by Darth_Koont |
I thought we were meant to be against bombing children. But apparently it’s allowable because of LGBT rights and the Nazis. Or whatever other propaganda and misrepresentation the Israeli state and its supporters want to make of those being illegally killed or those who support a ceasefire.
Rather than debate what crowds of hundreds of thousands should have done about antisemitism and offensive imagery they wouldn’t have seen or heard given the actual tiny amount of incidents, I’d rather question those who aren’t just standing by and allowing genocide and war crimes but have become apologists for the atrocities.
So why? And why do you think you know better than the UN or the WHO? |
Not sure where your last questions come from, not sure who are the apologists of which you speak.
My enemies enemy is my friend has never been a good strategy.
Sometimes tolerating the small things, leads to worse things.
I wasn’t talking about the 300,000 strong crowd, that’s why I used the analogy of the football crowd.
Someone was marching next to, as an example, the cos playing Hamas terrorists.
Would you have let that happen? [Post edited 14 Nov 2023 15:01]
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