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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? 00:40 - May 22 with 6477 viewsEireannach_gorm

Coalition leaders to speak to media at 8 am on Wednesday.
Speculation it is to declare recognism of Palestinian state.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-to-officially-recognise-state-of-pal
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 01:07 - May 22 with 4135 viewsKievthegreat

Hopefully others follow.
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 07:03 - May 22 with 3822 viewsDJR

Spain too, according to the World Service, and the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/22/palestinian-state-recognit
[Post edited 22 May 7:08]
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 07:24 - May 22 with 3754 viewsStokieBlue

It's already recognises by a lot of countries but in general not the more powerful Western countries so this is a big step.

Areas in green currently recognise Palestine.



SB

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 07:44 - May 22 with 3688 viewschicoazul

Thought you meant they were in for McKenna.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 08:04 - May 22 with 3630 viewsNthQldITFC

Norway has just done so according to R4 Today.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 with 3491 viewsGlasgowBlue

I guess terrorism pays then.

I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.

Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:18 - May 22 with 3459 viewsStokieBlue

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue

I guess terrorism pays then.

I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.

Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order.


You could just as easily argue that a disproportionate response resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, the starvation of a population and the destruction of the majority of the region forces the hand of other countries.

Israel has done their part in making this happen, to say "terrorism pays" is really only looking at it from one perspective. I don't think countries would have made this decision if Israel had responded in a more measured way, you yourself have said many times it's disproportionate.

SB
[Post edited 22 May 9:19]

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:21 - May 22 with 3387 viewsEwan_Oozami

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue

I guess terrorism pays then.

I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.

Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order.


How do you free a state from a terrorist organisation without recognising that state in the first place?

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:21 - May 22 with 3379 viewsnoggin

And Israel have stated that Ireland is "just a pawn in the hands of Hamas."

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:22 - May 22 with 3366 viewsLamp

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue

I guess terrorism pays then.

I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.

Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order.


Do you think the use of the phrase "elected government" implies they are already a state?

From what I understand Hamas have never been elected anyway, rather they seized control and have behaved as the de facto authority in Gaza.
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:26 - May 22 with 3297 viewsBlueschev

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue

I guess terrorism pays then.

I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.

Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order.


The longer the occupation continues the stronger support gets for Hamas, but a two State solution is a fantasy anyway. No Israeli government left or right will ever allow it, and the facts on the ground make it impossible.
[Post edited 22 May 9:28]
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:27 - May 22 with 3277 viewsNthQldITFC

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:18 - May 22 by StokieBlue

You could just as easily argue that a disproportionate response resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, the starvation of a population and the destruction of the majority of the region forces the hand of other countries.

Israel has done their part in making this happen, to say "terrorism pays" is really only looking at it from one perspective. I don't think countries would have made this decision if Israel had responded in a more measured way, you yourself have said many times it's disproportionate.

SB
[Post edited 22 May 9:19]


Plus the whole world should have recognised by default the right to statehood of those poor repressed people before October the 7th, in fact way, way, way before all of that.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:27 - May 22 with 3265 viewsEddyJ

Nobody comes out of the situation in Gaza looking good. Whatever solution the world arrives at, someone is going to be "rewarded" for atrocities.

IMO, we need to be looking towards the future rather than avenging the wrongs of the past. The Good Friday Agreement gives us a template for how this can be successful. What that could look like:

Two state solution. Immediate end to all violence. Both sides commit to UN peacekeeping forces policing the border for however long is neccessary.

Israel commit to destroying their settlements in Palestine. Israel commit to allowing aid into Palestine. Israel commit to a fair use of natural resources in Palestine in the future, such as water supplies.

Palestine commit to fair and democratic elections. Palestine commit to maintain basic human rights, including of LGBT people.
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:28 - May 22 with 3257 viewsBlueschev

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:22 - May 22 by Lamp

Do you think the use of the phrase "elected government" implies they are already a state?

From what I understand Hamas have never been elected anyway, rather they seized control and have behaved as the de facto authority in Gaza.


They were elected in 2006, the last election held by the Palestinian National Authority. Millions of Palestinians have never had a vote.
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:34 - May 22 with 3172 viewsDJR

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:26 - May 22 by Blueschev

The longer the occupation continues the stronger support gets for Hamas, but a two State solution is a fantasy anyway. No Israeli government left or right will ever allow it, and the facts on the ground make it impossible.
[Post edited 22 May 9:28]


As if to prove your point, Haaretz is currently reporting the following.

Israeli defense chief expands law allowing return to evacuated West Bank settlements

Israel's Defense Minister Yoav Gallant announced he will expand the law to allow Israelis to return to West Bank settlements which were evacuated during the 2005 disengagement plan.

The expanded law now includes the areas where the settlements Sa-Nur, Ganim and Kadim were located.

The law has up to now applied only to the territory of the Homesh outpost, where a settlement of the same name stood until 2005.
[Post edited 22 May 9:35]
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:41 - May 22 with 3112 viewsBlueschev

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:27 - May 22 by NthQldITFC

Plus the whole world should have recognised by default the right to statehood of those poor repressed people before October the 7th, in fact way, way, way before all of that.


Would it have been ok to recognise Palestinian statehood in 1986, before Hamas even existed?
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:42 - May 22 with 3094 viewsEireannach_gorm

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:27 - May 22 by EddyJ

Nobody comes out of the situation in Gaza looking good. Whatever solution the world arrives at, someone is going to be "rewarded" for atrocities.

IMO, we need to be looking towards the future rather than avenging the wrongs of the past. The Good Friday Agreement gives us a template for how this can be successful. What that could look like:

Two state solution. Immediate end to all violence. Both sides commit to UN peacekeeping forces policing the border for however long is neccessary.

Israel commit to destroying their settlements in Palestine. Israel commit to allowing aid into Palestine. Israel commit to a fair use of natural resources in Palestine in the future, such as water supplies.

Palestine commit to fair and democratic elections. Palestine commit to maintain basic human rights, including of LGBT people.


You could also say that the Israelies were rewarded for for atrocities in the cause of creating their own state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 10:17 - May 22 with 2938 viewsPinewoodblue

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:21 - May 22 by noggin

And Israel have stated that Ireland is "just a pawn in the hands of Hamas."


Outside Europe, apart from US, Canada, Australia almost every other country recognises Palastine.

I fully expect that within days the EU will come out in support.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 10:32 - May 22 with 2860 viewsDJR

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue

I guess terrorism pays then.

I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.

Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order.


Interesting to note this from today's Haaretz.

"Report: U.S. intelligence suggests one third of Hamas fighters killed, 65 percent of Gaza tunnels still intact

U.S. intelligence indicated that 30 to 35 percent of Hamas' fighters have been killed in the war in Gaza and about 65 percent of its tunnels are still intact, according to a report on
the Politico website."

I also read on Haaretz a day or so ago that Israeli sources indicated the action in Gaza could last another six months, which might be explained by the above.

Finally, I thought it sad to see on TV yesterday young children in the West Bank playing with realistic but pretend guns in a destroyed building. When I was young, that would have been a harmless pursuit, but given conflict is all these children know, one rather fears that when they grow they will switch to real guns.
[Post edited 22 May 10:33]
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 10:37 - May 22 with 2794 viewspointofblue

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:42 - May 22 by Eireannach_gorm

You could also say that the Israelies were rewarded for for atrocities in the cause of creating their own state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair


And look what happened - it’s just empowered future Israeli governments to ignore international law and treaties.

In truth, the recognition of a Palestinian State should have happened a long time ago. But, as painful as it may be to acknowledge, just like the collapse of the talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia, this does have a feel about it than terrorism does pay, even though it isn’t the intention of Ireland, Norway or Spain.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 10:42 - May 22 with 2739 viewsDJR

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:42 - May 22 by Eireannach_gorm

You could also say that the Israelies were rewarded for for atrocities in the cause of creating their own state.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair


The following (from an article in Haaretz) was probably more significant. Interestingly, the proposal to blow up the hotel came from Menachem Begin, later Israel's prime minister

"On July 22, 1946, the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, destroying the centre of the British Mandatory administration. The attack by the Irgun pre-state Jewish underground killed 91 and wounded 46. Among the dead were British employees, both civilian and military, members of the hotel staff, both Jewish and Arab, and other bystanders.

The act of terror shocked the British, and helped accelerate their decision to withdraw from Palestine two years later. It also led to a split within the Jewish community in the Land of Israel: the mainstream Jewish Agency and Haganah attempted to dissociate themselves from the operation - though it had in fact been carried out at their behest."
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 10:52 - May 22 with 2681 viewsNthQldITFC

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:11 - May 22 by GlasgowBlue

I guess terrorism pays then.

I strongly believe in a two state solution with the formation of a Palestinian state. Further more, I believe in a a Palestinian state within the pre 1967 borders, which would require Israel to give back land and demolish illegal settlements. But I don’t think this can happen until Hamas have been completely obliterated. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Hamas committed some of the worst atrocities ever seen on October 7th. Seven months later I don’t think we should be rewarding rape, murder, decapitation and mutilation with statehood.

Free a Palestine from Hamas then recognise Palestine. In that order.


Respectfully, and acknowledging my own lack of knowledge on the subject overall, is your objection to statehood first based on practical objections (it wouldn't work) or ideological objections (you don't think it's a fair way to get to what you and I want)?

For me, Hamas is an entity which has a physical self (leaders, fighters, equipment, tunnels etc.) and an abstract self (human rights, ideas, pain, grief, overseas support etc.) What Israel is doing now is trying to destroy the first but consequentially strengthening the second. That also is what your 'completely obliterated' position results in. The physical self will regrow from the abstract even if fully destroyed (and as DJR suggests above, that's probably utterly unrealistic anyway).

So surely the best approach for the Israeli ideal and the Israeli future is to be robust enough emotionally to support an approach which takes away the reasons for the abstract self and consequently causes the physical self to whither away (largely) as its raison-d'etre is greatly diminished.

Imagining for a second that both approaches work:
The outcome from destroying Hamas and then creating a Palestinian state is a Palestinian state still full of hatred.
The outcome from creating a Palestinian state with a withered away Hamas is a Palestinian state much less full of hatred.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 11:15 - May 22 with 2580 viewsBlueschev

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 10:32 - May 22 by DJR

Interesting to note this from today's Haaretz.

"Report: U.S. intelligence suggests one third of Hamas fighters killed, 65 percent of Gaza tunnels still intact

U.S. intelligence indicated that 30 to 35 percent of Hamas' fighters have been killed in the war in Gaza and about 65 percent of its tunnels are still intact, according to a report on
the Politico website."

I also read on Haaretz a day or so ago that Israeli sources indicated the action in Gaza could last another six months, which might be explained by the above.

Finally, I thought it sad to see on TV yesterday young children in the West Bank playing with realistic but pretend guns in a destroyed building. When I was young, that would have been a harmless pursuit, but given conflict is all these children know, one rather fears that when they grow they will switch to real guns.
[Post edited 22 May 10:33]


The goal is not to destroy Hamas, which even a simpleton knows is an impossible task, it is to make the Gaza Strip uninhabitable then hope that the Egyptians will allow the population to resettle there, never to return.
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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 11:33 - May 22 with 2466 viewsRyorry

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 10:52 - May 22 by NthQldITFC

Respectfully, and acknowledging my own lack of knowledge on the subject overall, is your objection to statehood first based on practical objections (it wouldn't work) or ideological objections (you don't think it's a fair way to get to what you and I want)?

For me, Hamas is an entity which has a physical self (leaders, fighters, equipment, tunnels etc.) and an abstract self (human rights, ideas, pain, grief, overseas support etc.) What Israel is doing now is trying to destroy the first but consequentially strengthening the second. That also is what your 'completely obliterated' position results in. The physical self will regrow from the abstract even if fully destroyed (and as DJR suggests above, that's probably utterly unrealistic anyway).

So surely the best approach for the Israeli ideal and the Israeli future is to be robust enough emotionally to support an approach which takes away the reasons for the abstract self and consequently causes the physical self to whither away (largely) as its raison-d'etre is greatly diminished.

Imagining for a second that both approaches work:
The outcome from destroying Hamas and then creating a Palestinian state is a Palestinian state still full of hatred.
The outcome from creating a Palestinian state with a withered away Hamas is a Palestinian state much less full of hatred.


The elephant in the room, which I haven't seen mentioned anywhere on the thread yet, is that Hamas (and other organisations/states) need to publicly retract their avowed intention to "wipe Israel off the face of the map".

The fact that they haven't is what makes it such a chicken-egg situation, as it makes for a permanent Israeli psyche of fear, often leading to a modus operandi of getting their retaliation in first.

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Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 11:44 - May 22 with 2392 viewsGlasgowBlue

Ireland about to put the cat among the pigeons? on 09:18 - May 22 by StokieBlue

You could just as easily argue that a disproportionate response resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, the starvation of a population and the destruction of the majority of the region forces the hand of other countries.

Israel has done their part in making this happen, to say "terrorism pays" is really only looking at it from one perspective. I don't think countries would have made this decision if Israel had responded in a more measured way, you yourself have said many times it's disproportionate.

SB
[Post edited 22 May 9:19]


I don't disagree with the assessment you make in your first paragraph. However, I don't expect mature heads of state to engage in virtue signaling.

So they recognise the Palestinian state. Which government are they recognising? The PA in the West Bank or Hamas in Gaza? Both elected.

Which borders are they recognising?

Regarding your second para, what difference do you think this is going to make on the ground in Gaza? Will Netanyahu reign in the IDF? Will Hamas release the remaining hostages?

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