| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:33 - May 31 with 1700 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:27 - May 31 by Herbivore |
The right wing media would destroy them if they said anything pro immigration. The narrative that immigration is a bad thing is too strong, it's been allowed to be pushed and peddled for far too long without anyone challenging it and I'm not sure how easily the narrative can be changed at this point. If we had a better press who were willing to deal in facts rather than propaganda that would certainly help to improve the level of political discourse in this country but we basically have a load of utter dross instead. |
Yes that’s a very good point. Still frustrating that the case is never made. |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:33 - May 31 with 1705 views | DanTheMan |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 00:35 - May 31 by FromIpswichToPhoenix |
I live in Arizona. This won't sway the hard right. Hell, this plays right into his hands. He has half the country conned that for whatever reason, they think he is our saviour. If he wins, we're effed and our democracy will be over. This will be a revenge tour and nothing more. He called democrats Human Scum yesterday. I think that says all you need to hear.
Seriously thinking about my options. The religious right has gone insane over here. My daughter has come out as gay and I don't know how safe she will be as more of the hardcore Christians take over. This isn't the America I moved to in the 90's. |
If he gets in and they start doing Project 2025, I dread to think about the chaos it will cause.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
It looks like they want a Theocratic dictatorship. |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:34 - May 31 with 1700 views | Mullet |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:23 - May 31 by GlasgowBlue |
Sticking with the uk for a moment, I just wish the Labour Party would make the case for the positives immigration brings to the country. And it’s not just the current leader. Go back to Ed Milliband and his “controls on immigration” mugs.
As well as the cultural benefits immigration brings to the country, migrants are net contributors to the economy. No one ever stands up and makes this case. They seem terrified of the noisy bigoted minority. |
The problem is people don't see it. They've been so indoctrinated by the right wing media that play on generational bigotry that all they see is a waiting room and A and E queue full of foreigners. They don't mind that the staff are too.
Even when we invited people over after WW2 to rebuild the country the reaction was a racist one (this isn't necessarily a 20th century thing you see it in big events like the Great Fire of London too).
There's been disproportionate coverage of far right bigots for decades, whether it's those who emerged after Powell's speech or modern day hate preachers like Farage and Yaxley-Lennon being platformed way beyond their worth. Mainly because when the government have been failing, it's an easy narrative to let people listen to.
When Rees-Mogg blamed the Grenfell victims there should have been a huge backlash and he should have gone the same way Powell did, instead people "but both sides" it. Labour are in this sh1t position of having to play down almost everything because they need a majority to be as big as possible. Lauding immigrants when we've had 14 years of demonising them is so brave as to be electorally self-inflicted damage. |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:59 - May 31 with 1646 views | BloomBlue |
I'm sure they said on TV earlier that he's ontrack to break the 24 hour record for donations received online to a political campaign since he was found guilty. |  | | |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:02 - May 31 with 1634 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:23 - May 31 by GlasgowBlue |
Sticking with the uk for a moment, I just wish the Labour Party would make the case for the positives immigration brings to the country. And it’s not just the current leader. Go back to Ed Milliband and his “controls on immigration” mugs.
As well as the cultural benefits immigration brings to the country, migrants are net contributors to the economy. No one ever stands up and makes this case. They seem terrified of the noisy bigoted minority. |
It was tried during the Brexit debate. There was lots of reports and information highlighting the positive impacts of immigration, from both longer-term visitors and more transient ones like overseas students. It was largely dismissed (or couldn’t cut through the pervasive negative narrative).
Some came from the Labour leadership:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-50450868
But there was a lot more generally circulating. You can lead a horse to water and all that.. |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:03 - May 31 with 1623 views | StokieBlue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 23:57 - May 30 by Lord_Lucan |
The country is an absolute basket case. 350m population and two stupid old fools to vote for ?
Absolutely nuts.
Oh and yes, of course he will get voted in - unfortunately by a blooming landslide.
Edited after correction [Post edited 31 May 2024 9:06]
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The population of the US is actually about 50% of that.
Point stands on the poorness of the candidates though.
SB |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:07 - May 31 with 1603 views | Herbivore |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:32 - May 31 by NthQldITFC |
Yes. Those traits are what give oxygen  to the neoliberal capitalist system, which is therefore designed to encourage those same traits. It's quite obviously suicidal on a societal scale (and in an Emperor's new clothes way) but for some peculiar reason we don't seem to want to recognise our nakedness en masse and wake up. |
It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation though, how much of the success of capitalism is down to those traits being 'natural' and how much does it cultivate them? Societies where the main focus is still daily subsistence and a need for cooperation to ensure collective survival don't tend to display those same traits. |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:19 - May 31 with 1558 views | DJR |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:23 - May 31 by GlasgowBlue |
Sticking with the uk for a moment, I just wish the Labour Party would make the case for the positives immigration brings to the country. And it’s not just the current leader. Go back to Ed Milliband and his “controls on immigration” mugs.
As well as the cultural benefits immigration brings to the country, migrants are net contributors to the economy. No one ever stands up and makes this case. They seem terrified of the noisy bigoted minority. |
It's not just immigration that they are keeping their heads down on but all sorts of progressive issues. But if they don't try to set the agenda now with such a lead in polls, they will be beholden to the right wing press when in government. Indeed, only the other day they announced that they will not reverse the recent restriction on family members.
Incidentally, I wonder if you can guess which Labour election manifesto this comes from?
A Labour government will establish a humane immigration system and end the ‘hostile
environment’ that caused the Windrush scandal of British citizens being deported. Instead, our system will be built on human rights and aimed at meeting the skills and labour shortages that exist in our economy and public services.
Our immigration system must allow us to recruit the people we need, and to welcome them and their families. Our work visa system must fill any skills or labour shortages that arise. The movement of people around the world has enriched our society, our economy and our culture.
We will take decisive action to regulate the labour market to stop the undercutting of wages and conditions, and the exploitation of all workers including migrant workers. It is the actions of bad bosses and successive Conservative governments that have driven down wages and working terms and conditions. Labour will ensure all workers have full and equal rights from day one, with a Real Living Wage for all.
The Conservative policy of pursuing net migration targets has undermined our economy and our public services, refusing entry to essential key workers including nurses. It has created a hostile environment within our communities, encouraged the demonisation of migrants and enabled the callous use of three million residents as bargaining chips in our negotiations over EU withdrawal. Moreover, the Tories have not once met their own targets. Their migration
policies are a complete and damaging failure, whichever way they are
looked at.
We will scrap the 2014 Immigration Act introduced by the Tories with their Liberal Democrat coalition partners. We are for a levelling up of rights, not a race to the bottom. We will not tolerate a two-tier system for those entitled to be here.
The Windrush scandal continues to create new victims. We will end its injustices and provide fair compensation to those who have unfairly suffered.
We will end indefinite detention, review the alternatives to the inhumane conditions of detention centres, and close Yarl’s Wood and Brook House, from which immediate savings would contribute towards a fund of £20 million to support the survivors of modern slavery, people trafficking and domestic violence.
We will ensure justice for migrant domestic workers and restore the overseas domestic workers’ visa.
If we remain in the EU, freedom of movement would continue. If we leave, it will be subject to negotiations, but we recognise the social and economic benefits that free movement has brought both in terms of EU citizens here and UK citizens abroad – and we
will seek to protect those rights.
In accordance with our values and domestic laws, we will uphold the right to a family life for British, EU and non-EU residents alike. We will end the deportation of family members of people entitled to be here and end the minimum income requirements which separate families. [Post edited 31 May 2024 9:29]
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:26 - May 31 with 1521 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:19 - May 31 by DJR |
It's not just immigration that they are keeping their heads down on but all sorts of progressive issues. But if they don't try to set the agenda now with such a lead in polls, they will be beholden to the right wing press when in government. Indeed, only the other day they announced that they will not reverse the recent restriction on family members.
Incidentally, I wonder if you can guess which Labour election manifesto this comes from?
A Labour government will establish a humane immigration system and end the ‘hostile
environment’ that caused the Windrush scandal of British citizens being deported. Instead, our system will be built on human rights and aimed at meeting the skills and labour shortages that exist in our economy and public services.
Our immigration system must allow us to recruit the people we need, and to welcome them and their families. Our work visa system must fill any skills or labour shortages that arise. The movement of people around the world has enriched our society, our economy and our culture.
We will take decisive action to regulate the labour market to stop the undercutting of wages and conditions, and the exploitation of all workers including migrant workers. It is the actions of bad bosses and successive Conservative governments that have driven down wages and working terms and conditions. Labour will ensure all workers have full and equal rights from day one, with a Real Living Wage for all.
The Conservative policy of pursuing net migration targets has undermined our economy and our public services, refusing entry to essential key workers including nurses. It has created a hostile environment within our communities, encouraged the demonisation of migrants and enabled the callous use of three million residents as bargaining chips in our negotiations over EU withdrawal. Moreover, the Tories have not once met their own targets. Their migration
policies are a complete and damaging failure, whichever way they are
looked at.
We will scrap the 2014 Immigration Act introduced by the Tories with their Liberal Democrat coalition partners. We are for a levelling up of rights, not a race to the bottom. We will not tolerate a two-tier system for those entitled to be here.
The Windrush scandal continues to create new victims. We will end its injustices and provide fair compensation to those who have unfairly suffered.
We will end indefinite detention, review the alternatives to the inhumane conditions of detention centres, and close Yarl’s Wood and Brook House, from which immediate savings would contribute towards a fund of £20 million to support the survivors of modern slavery, people trafficking and domestic violence.
We will ensure justice for migrant domestic workers and restore the overseas domestic workers’ visa.
If we remain in the EU, freedom of movement would continue. If we leave, it will be subject to negotiations, but we recognise the social and economic benefits that free movement has brought both in terms of EU citizens here and UK citizens abroad – and we
will seek to protect those rights.
In accordance with our values and domestic laws, we will uphold the right to a family life for British, EU and non-EU residents alike. We will end the deportation of family members of people entitled to be here and end the minimum income requirements which separate families. [Post edited 31 May 2024 9:29]
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2019
If that had have been implemented, it would have addressed many of the problems people are raising in this thread. It wouldn’t have fixed the underlying toxic, media-driven narrative against immigration though. But it would have improved the Uk. | |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:28 - May 31 with 1510 views | lowhouseblue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:23 - May 31 by GlasgowBlue |
Sticking with the uk for a moment, I just wish the Labour Party would make the case for the positives immigration brings to the country. And it’s not just the current leader. Go back to Ed Milliband and his “controls on immigration” mugs.
As well as the cultural benefits immigration brings to the country, migrants are net contributors to the economy. No one ever stands up and makes this case. They seem terrified of the noisy bigoted minority. |
however, brexit has changed the calculation of net economic benefit. eu migrants primarily came to work and their economic contribution was very high. since brexit net migration has risen, but the proportion who are here directly to work is now low. in terms of current migrants about 1/3rd are here for education (inc dependents), a 1/3rd are here for work (of which getting on for half are dependents); and a 1/3rd are here for humanitarian reasons (asylum, ukraine, hk, etc). clearly being here for education brings income to the country, and many people here from hk etc work. but the proportion of migrants in the most economically productive working group have fallen post brexit. the economic benefit calculation would therefore be different now (i don't know what it would be). |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:39 - May 31 with 1468 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:03 - May 31 by StokieBlue |
The population of the US is actually about 50% of that.
Point stands on the poorness of the candidates though.
SB |
The winner will be the one who gets their supporters to vote, the lower the turnout the more likely Trump will win.
We moan about our first past the post electoral system but the electoral college system in the US means you don’t need to record the most votes to win.
Trumps approach is to play “everyone is against me “ card. Democrats are probably more likely not to bother to vote only time will tell.
An interesting article on who voted in the most recent US elections.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/voter-turnout-2018-2022/ |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:41 - May 31 with 1458 views | PhilTWTD |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:11 - May 31 by Guthrum |
Altho polarisation in US politics has squeezed that margin of floating voters, which has always been far smaller than we get in Britain. Plus the Electoral College system means the outcome can go counter to the popular vote (as in 2016). |
And in 2000, although that's another discussion. I read that there is a suspicion that polls might currently be incorrect, that they were overadjusted in the post-Trump era, which time will tell. Certainly Trump-backed candidates are tending to lose elections which suggests polls might be wrong. The Haley vote is being taken as an indication that some Republicans will vote against him in November.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:53 - May 31 with 1415 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 08:33 - May 31 by DanTheMan |
If he gets in and they start doing Project 2025, I dread to think about the chaos it will cause.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
It looks like they want a Theocratic dictatorship. |
You remember all those vanished civil liberties, anti protest legislation and the "if you don't do anything wrong......." reaction to the surveillance state? Well just look what can happen. |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:57 - May 31 with 1394 views | iamatractorboy |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:39 - May 31 by Pinewoodblue |
The winner will be the one who gets their supporters to vote, the lower the turnout the more likely Trump will win.
We moan about our first past the post electoral system but the electoral college system in the US means you don’t need to record the most votes to win.
Trumps approach is to play “everyone is against me “ card. Democrats are probably more likely not to bother to vote only time will tell.
An interesting article on who voted in the most recent US elections.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/voter-turnout-2018-2022/ |
You don't need to get the most votes overall to win in the UK, either. Party A could win 325 (or whatever half plus one is) constituencies by a single vote over Party B, then get hammered in the rest by B and still get a majority of MPs. |  | | |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:01 - May 31 with 1376 views | StokieBlue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:41 - May 31 by PhilTWTD |
And in 2000, although that's another discussion. I read that there is a suspicion that polls might currently be incorrect, that they were overadjusted in the post-Trump era, which time will tell. Certainly Trump-backed candidates are tending to lose elections which suggests polls might be wrong. The Haley vote is being taken as an indication that some Republicans will vote against him in November.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
The problem is we now have 6 months of campaigning where the media will spend every hour trying to convince people Biden is unfit to govern.
They might not be wrong in that but it will be heavily lopsided.
I think it's going to be hard to call right up until the election.
SB | |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:21 - May 31 with 1340 views | PhilTWTD |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:01 - May 31 by StokieBlue |
The problem is we now have 6 months of campaigning where the media will spend every hour trying to convince people Biden is unfit to govern.
They might not be wrong in that but it will be heavily lopsided.
I think it's going to be hard to call right up until the election.
SB |
While Trump shows he is unfit to govern on a daily basis, assuming he's not jailed. Agree, it could go all the way to the end, although I suspect Biden might start to pull away the nearer we get. | | | |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:25 - May 31 with 1313 views | StokieBlue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:21 - May 31 by PhilTWTD |
While Trump shows he is unfit to govern on a daily basis, assuming he's not jailed. Agree, it could go all the way to the end, although I suspect Biden might start to pull away the nearer we get. |
The issue is that whilst Trump does prove his unfit to govern on a daily basis he has a large core who simply don't care. It's like discussing something with a conspiracy theorist, if you point out something against the conspiracy then the response is usually that you must be part of the conspiracy.
There is a section of floating voters and Republicans that Biden can target but with the way the media is in the US I think it's going to be a struggle. Hopefully you're right and Biden pulls away at some point but in reality the Democrats might have been better to break with tradition and not gone with the incumbent.
SB | |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:26 - May 31 with 1309 views | wkj |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:21 - May 31 by PhilTWTD |
While Trump shows he is unfit to govern on a daily basis, assuming he's not jailed. Agree, it could go all the way to the end, although I suspect Biden might start to pull away the nearer we get. |
Rumblings are that Georgia and Arizona are tipping back toward the GOP, and this will be crucial in the election. There is a sentiment among some of African-Americans that they only seem to matter to the country when there is an election, and to some extent the same is felt in Hispanic communities too. If this sentiment is felt strongly then a lot of close states with strong diversity could swing back against the democrats and lead to a landslide victory for the GOP. |  |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:59 - May 31 with 1236 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 09:57 - May 31 by iamatractorboy |
You don't need to get the most votes overall to win in the UK, either. Party A could win 325 (or whatever half plus one is) constituencies by a single vote over Party B, then get hammered in the rest by B and still get a majority of MPs. |
An extremely unlikely scenario. | |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:02 - May 31 with 1223 views | PhilTWTD |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:25 - May 31 by StokieBlue |
The issue is that whilst Trump does prove his unfit to govern on a daily basis he has a large core who simply don't care. It's like discussing something with a conspiracy theorist, if you point out something against the conspiracy then the response is usually that you must be part of the conspiracy.
There is a section of floating voters and Republicans that Biden can target but with the way the media is in the US I think it's going to be a struggle. Hopefully you're right and Biden pulls away at some point but in reality the Democrats might have been better to break with tradition and not gone with the incumbent.
SB |
I certainly agree with you on the latter. Whether Biden is a good president or otherwise, his age becomes a factor and is opens him up for criticism that he's past it. Perhaps the debates will make the relative mental states of the pair clearer as Trump seems to be deteriorating fast and that will presumably become more evident in such a forum.
Trump's base isn't big enough to win an election on its own, he needs some independents or traditional Republicans to go with him. | | | |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:04 - May 31 with 1208 views | PhilTWTD |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:26 - May 31 by wkj |
Rumblings are that Georgia and Arizona are tipping back toward the GOP, and this will be crucial in the election. There is a sentiment among some of African-Americans that they only seem to matter to the country when there is an election, and to some extent the same is felt in Hispanic communities too. If this sentiment is felt strongly then a lot of close states with strong diversity could swing back against the democrats and lead to a landslide victory for the GOP. |
I don't see a landslide in either direction however it pans out, and those groups may show scepticism towards Biden now but could well end up behind him as the prospect of Trump becomes ever more real nearer to November. | | | |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:05 - May 31 with 1194 views | Herbivore |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:59 - May 31 by Pinewoodblue |
An extremely unlikely scenario. |
Although parties win landslide majorities without close to a majority of the popular vote. Our system is less bad than the US but it's still pretty rubbish. | |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:09 - May 31 with 1150 views | PhilTWTD |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 10:59 - May 31 by Pinewoodblue |
An extremely unlikely scenario. |
It happened in 1974. Labour won 301 seats and formed a minority Government, the Tories 297, despite the latter getting 0.7% more in the popular vote. | | | |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:12 - May 31 with 1145 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:02 - May 31 by PhilTWTD |
I certainly agree with you on the latter. Whether Biden is a good president or otherwise, his age becomes a factor and is opens him up for criticism that he's past it. Perhaps the debates will make the relative mental states of the pair clearer as Trump seems to be deteriorating fast and that will presumably become more evident in such a forum.
Trump's base isn't big enough to win an election on its own, he needs some independents or traditional Republicans to go with him. |
His choice of running mate will be important as a good chance they will be President before next election. | |
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| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:26 - May 31 with 1116 views | DJR |
| Will America elect a criminal as President? on 11:09 - May 31 by PhilTWTD |
It happened in 1974. Labour won 301 seats and formed a minority Government, the Tories 297, despite the latter getting 0.7% more in the popular vote. |
And in 1951, when the Atlee government had 0.8% more in the popular vote but the Tories achieved an absolute majority in terms of seats. | | | |
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