| VAT on Private School 14:06 - Jun 13 with 29416 views | mutters |
Whilst it does seem like the correct thing to do (why are they granted VAT free / Charity status in the first place?), how on earth will the system cope if there is a mass migration to the state sector? We are already short of school places and also decent ones as well. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 00:59 - Jun 17 with 3009 views | IPS_wich |
I’ll declare my hand from the outset - we’ve almost finished putting both kids through private school; initially in the UK and then for the last 11 years in Australia. Overall it will have cost us about £450,000 from age 3-18 for the two of them.
Now, I suspect I will have got some folks on here reaching for the down arrow just by stating the above, but I stated it simply as context.
Other context, both my wife and I went to Comprehensive school, were the first in our families to go to Uni and have never inherited a penny. We would both be described as ‘professionals’ and when we our oldest started school we not very senior in our organisations. Every penny of school fee has been earned by us.
But a few reflections to add to the debate:
- first of all, and one thing not mentioned at all, is that initially we put our oldest into a private primary school because the feee were significantly lower than day care fees. And by day care I mean just your run of the mill day care centre. (The cost of child care to enable parents to both work is where I would like to see greater government investment - but that’s another debate).
- We were living in Essex and saw it as an investment to try and help the kids get into the Grammar school; but we moved down under when the kids were still in primary school. We then carried on with private education in Australia because we initially thought we’d come back to the uk after 2-3 years.
- We were also effectively banking on getting higher up in our professions, so that by high school we would be earning more and therefore it would be more affordable.
- My observation is that there’s three types of family at private school. The largest is the super wealthy. Then there’s the professionals. And finally there’s the ‘scrimp and save’ family. We definitely fall into the middle group now, but we had 3-4 years when we first got to Australia when we were saving every cent in order to pay the fees. There’s a lot made in this thread about the scrimp and save family, but, let’s be honest, you have to be coming from a reasonable income base to start with - so any talk of sacrifice is hugely relative. For us it was no holidays, a 7/8 year old car and only eating out once a month - so not really a sacrifice.
-Was it worth it? To be honest, I’m not sure. Our oldest got a decent high school grade at the end and got into a decent uni - but would they have done much worse in a state school? I’m not sure they would have done. And when I look at our mortgage still going well into my 60s and then add up how much we’ve spent on fees there is a huge part of me that would rather have a much lower mortgage still to pay.
Should there be VAT on school fees - 100%. Even if you’re scrimping and saving, it is still a life choice that is only available to a very small minority. Would it have made a difference to our decision to privately educate the kids. Probably not, but if we’d been in the UK still I suspect we wouldn’t have carried on into high school with it. [Post edited 17 Jun 2024 4:52]
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| VAT on Private School on 06:24 - Jun 17 with 2917 views | Zapers |
| VAT on Private School on 13:04 - Jun 15 by DJR |
I could have done but, as a matter of principle, never ever contemplated that route (despite offers of help from my parents) because I dislike the inequality that private schools have embedded in our society for centuries. [Post edited 15 Jun 2024 13:13]
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So you put your principles in front of your child’s education because you considered that more important.
Interesting. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 08:52 - Jun 17 with 2845 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 06:24 - Jun 17 by Zapers |
So you put your principles in front of your child’s education because you considered that more important.
Interesting. |
Do you not have any principles? |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 08:59 - Jun 17 with 2828 views | itfcjoe |
| VAT on Private School on 00:59 - Jun 17 by IPS_wich |
I’ll declare my hand from the outset - we’ve almost finished putting both kids through private school; initially in the UK and then for the last 11 years in Australia. Overall it will have cost us about £450,000 from age 3-18 for the two of them.
Now, I suspect I will have got some folks on here reaching for the down arrow just by stating the above, but I stated it simply as context.
Other context, both my wife and I went to Comprehensive school, were the first in our families to go to Uni and have never inherited a penny. We would both be described as ‘professionals’ and when we our oldest started school we not very senior in our organisations. Every penny of school fee has been earned by us.
But a few reflections to add to the debate:
- first of all, and one thing not mentioned at all, is that initially we put our oldest into a private primary school because the feee were significantly lower than day care fees. And by day care I mean just your run of the mill day care centre. (The cost of child care to enable parents to both work is where I would like to see greater government investment - but that’s another debate).
- We were living in Essex and saw it as an investment to try and help the kids get into the Grammar school; but we moved down under when the kids were still in primary school. We then carried on with private education in Australia because we initially thought we’d come back to the uk after 2-3 years.
- We were also effectively banking on getting higher up in our professions, so that by high school we would be earning more and therefore it would be more affordable.
- My observation is that there’s three types of family at private school. The largest is the super wealthy. Then there’s the professionals. And finally there’s the ‘scrimp and save’ family. We definitely fall into the middle group now, but we had 3-4 years when we first got to Australia when we were saving every cent in order to pay the fees. There’s a lot made in this thread about the scrimp and save family, but, let’s be honest, you have to be coming from a reasonable income base to start with - so any talk of sacrifice is hugely relative. For us it was no holidays, a 7/8 year old car and only eating out once a month - so not really a sacrifice.
-Was it worth it? To be honest, I’m not sure. Our oldest got a decent high school grade at the end and got into a decent uni - but would they have done much worse in a state school? I’m not sure they would have done. And when I look at our mortgage still going well into my 60s and then add up how much we’ve spent on fees there is a huge part of me that would rather have a much lower mortgage still to pay.
Should there be VAT on school fees - 100%. Even if you’re scrimping and saving, it is still a life choice that is only available to a very small minority. Would it have made a difference to our decision to privately educate the kids. Probably not, but if we’d been in the UK still I suspect we wouldn’t have carried on into high school with it. [Post edited 17 Jun 2024 4:52]
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Thanks for the post, I'm not sure what I'll do when mine get to an older age but am considering it.
I went to private school, but was very much from scrimp and save family - had a scholarship, and an assisted place, but I imagine I was the only kid there who was sitting with his Dad in the morning who was ready to go to work on a building site waiting for his Mum to come in from Sainsburys on a night shift to effectively hand over responsibility so Mum could take me to school after 10 hours stacking shelves. My sister wouldn't sit entrance exams so went to local school, but had she wanted to go I don't see anyway we could have both gone so not sure what would have happened.
It's funny now, that since leaving school my parents have done incredibly well with work and now are what I'd consider very well off so people put the 2 & 2 together of fact I went to private school and see them and come up with 5 as to what my experience was at the time of it.
But now, am in a situation where my 2 are in year 2 and Reception and whilst taking a look at things if we were to put them into the same school I went to then with our not massive mortgage, the school fees and mortgage would be the best part of £50k a year which isn't even close to being affordable and we both earn well in our jobs.
My parents have said they may be able to help us out at some point, and we are a few years from deciding what we are goign to do as would only look at High School, but if they were to give all the Grandchildren £100k each, then I'm not sure whether using that for private education would be better than investing it into the property market for them so that when they come out the other side of study they are in a better position that way - very first world problems I know.
My wife is keener for them to go, but she went to Colbayns which is now Clacton Coastal Academy, and whilst came out of it fine struggles to describe just how poor the experience was, i think she still has PTSD from using public toilets! Whereas I was at a good private school and whilst had a great time, and ahad a very good education feel a bit more take it or leave it.
But agree that fees should be VATable, and if we want to do it but then can't find a way to afford it then we can't do it and that's that |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 09:05 - Jun 17 with 2817 views | Zapers |
| VAT on Private School on 08:52 - Jun 17 by DJR |
Do you not have any principles? |
Yes I do, but not at the expense of my sons education.
Do you think Diane Abbott has principles. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 09:42 - Jun 17 with 2774 views | IPS_wich |
| VAT on Private School on 08:59 - Jun 17 by itfcjoe |
Thanks for the post, I'm not sure what I'll do when mine get to an older age but am considering it.
I went to private school, but was very much from scrimp and save family - had a scholarship, and an assisted place, but I imagine I was the only kid there who was sitting with his Dad in the morning who was ready to go to work on a building site waiting for his Mum to come in from Sainsburys on a night shift to effectively hand over responsibility so Mum could take me to school after 10 hours stacking shelves. My sister wouldn't sit entrance exams so went to local school, but had she wanted to go I don't see anyway we could have both gone so not sure what would have happened.
It's funny now, that since leaving school my parents have done incredibly well with work and now are what I'd consider very well off so people put the 2 & 2 together of fact I went to private school and see them and come up with 5 as to what my experience was at the time of it.
But now, am in a situation where my 2 are in year 2 and Reception and whilst taking a look at things if we were to put them into the same school I went to then with our not massive mortgage, the school fees and mortgage would be the best part of £50k a year which isn't even close to being affordable and we both earn well in our jobs.
My parents have said they may be able to help us out at some point, and we are a few years from deciding what we are goign to do as would only look at High School, but if they were to give all the Grandchildren £100k each, then I'm not sure whether using that for private education would be better than investing it into the property market for them so that when they come out the other side of study they are in a better position that way - very first world problems I know.
My wife is keener for them to go, but she went to Colbayns which is now Clacton Coastal Academy, and whilst came out of it fine struggles to describe just how poor the experience was, i think she still has PTSD from using public toilets! Whereas I was at a good private school and whilst had a great time, and ahad a very good education feel a bit more take it or leave it.
But agree that fees should be VATable, and if we want to do it but then can't find a way to afford it then we can't do it and that's that |
The other thing about the kids from a 'scrimp and save' family (which I'm sure you appreciate from your childhood) is that there is many a time when the kids really resent their parents for not being able to afford the same luxuries that other kids at their school have.
In our first four years in Australia we really had to cut back, and it did get a bit easier eventually as we progressed in our careers - but I still remember both kids telling us:
- How unfair it was that they couldn't go on the school ski trip like their best friends
- How embarrassing it is being dropped off to school by Dad who's driving a seven year old Nissan Qashqai when their friend gets dropped off by Dad in the Porsche SUV and picked up by Mum in the Tesla.
- How much they hated the five days down in a cottage 100 miles south of where we live when their friends are holidaying in the US or Singapore.
- Why do we have to drive 20 minutes each way to school instead of living within walking distance of the school (answer: because the median house price near the school is almost $2million more than our house cost)
- Could we not have their birthday party at home because our four bedroom, three bathroom house is 'too small'
As per my original post, I'm not sure in hindsight private school was the best idea. Despite doing a decent job of keeping the kids grounded (we made them go and get part-time jobs when they turned 15 for example) - I do think it's warped their perception about what is normal. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 09:59 - Jun 17 with 2740 views | itfcjoe |
| VAT on Private School on 09:42 - Jun 17 by IPS_wich |
The other thing about the kids from a 'scrimp and save' family (which I'm sure you appreciate from your childhood) is that there is many a time when the kids really resent their parents for not being able to afford the same luxuries that other kids at their school have.
In our first four years in Australia we really had to cut back, and it did get a bit easier eventually as we progressed in our careers - but I still remember both kids telling us:
- How unfair it was that they couldn't go on the school ski trip like their best friends
- How embarrassing it is being dropped off to school by Dad who's driving a seven year old Nissan Qashqai when their friend gets dropped off by Dad in the Porsche SUV and picked up by Mum in the Tesla.
- How much they hated the five days down in a cottage 100 miles south of where we live when their friends are holidaying in the US or Singapore.
- Why do we have to drive 20 minutes each way to school instead of living within walking distance of the school (answer: because the median house price near the school is almost $2million more than our house cost)
- Could we not have their birthday party at home because our four bedroom, three bathroom house is 'too small'
As per my original post, I'm not sure in hindsight private school was the best idea. Despite doing a decent job of keeping the kids grounded (we made them go and get part-time jobs when they turned 15 for example) - I do think it's warped their perception about what is normal. |
I used to hate being run around in my Dad's van by my Mum - no doubt because they could claim back the diesel used in it to help out a bit!
I think I was fortunate that wouldn't say the other bits ended up worrying me, because even then their still felt like at the school most were from more normal-ish backgrounds re parents careers and there was just a few in year who were absolutely minted and on a different stratosphere....with how the fees have gone I imagine the numbers falling into each category have altered further into the seemingly mega rich and foreign students | |
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| VAT on Private School on 10:35 - Jun 17 with 2678 views | bluestandard |
| VAT on Private School on 18:12 - Jun 16 by redrickstuhaart |
I know what it is and I understand vat. Who said anything about money going to private schools? (albeit you watch them put up the fees by the full 20% whilst enjoy the ability to recover some of it that they did not recover before). Care fees are not the same thing. Private school is a luxury choice. Care fees very rarely are.
You pay vat on a luxury service or item (and indeed many non luxury items). If you get a special break on the luxury of private schools, that is at the expense of others. |
You mentioned ‘tax breaks’. That’s money directly benefitting a legal entity. Your point on care fees is fine. Yes I agree there is a difference, which is why there isn’t VAT. That’s just my opinion though and others will disagree, just like many will disagree with describing private school fees as a ‘luxury item’ given the diabolical conditions in the state school sector. I repeat, there is no objective fairness in taxation. | | | |
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| VAT on Private School on 10:38 - Jun 17 with 2660 views | redrickstuhaart |
| VAT on Private School on 10:35 - Jun 17 by bluestandard |
You mentioned ‘tax breaks’. That’s money directly benefitting a legal entity. Your point on care fees is fine. Yes I agree there is a difference, which is why there isn’t VAT. That’s just my opinion though and others will disagree, just like many will disagree with describing private school fees as a ‘luxury item’ given the diabolical conditions in the state school sector. I repeat, there is no objective fairness in taxation. |
Of course its a luxury. Its a big advantage, of something much more costly and of higher quality (generally) that you can pay to enjoy, over and above what is the norm. No reason it should be vat free (i.e. a tax break).
No idea what you mean by money benefitting a legal entity. People paying school fees are legal entities, and they get a tax break for a luxury which is currently non vatable. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 11:09 - Jun 17 with 2613 views | jonbull88 |
| VAT on Private School on 23:36 - Jun 13 by redrickstuhaart |
Its a race to the bottom? To treat a luxury privilege enjoyed by a wealthy minority, the same as other luxury privileges from a tax perspective?
Who knows how well the money might be spent, but to question the principle is difficult to understand. |
Yes it’s a race to the bottom. Correct me if I’m wrong but a state school currently receives just over £7500 per student per year. Most class sizes are around 30. The cost to send my boys to their school is around £15000 a year. Most private schools as far as I’m aware (again correct me if I’m mistaken) receive no funding for pupil places. My boys class sizes are 14 and 13. With my little brain means their school makes as much from their classes as a state school does.
I say it’s a race to the bottom as for me proof is there. Like every sector in this country it has been starved of funds. Merging schools and classes is happening everywhere atm. Yet for me we need more schools and smaller class sizes. The government should be looking at the private sector as inspiration to guide them in how to build a successful state system. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 11:17 - Jun 17 with 2577 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 09:05 - Jun 17 by Zapers |
Yes I do, but not at the expense of my sons education.
Do you think Diane Abbott has principles. |
I am not sure what Diane Abbott has to do with it, but if asked to express a view, I would say what she did seems a bit hypocritical, assuming she ever had or expressed the view that she would not send her children to a public school.
But I am a true liberal, and would not condemn anyone for what they do in their private life.
As it is, I am perfectly at ease with how I lead my life, but if you want to be judgmental or condemn me, feel free. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 11:18 - Jun 17 with 2570 views | Radlett_blue |
| VAT on Private School on 11:09 - Jun 17 by jonbull88 |
Yes it’s a race to the bottom. Correct me if I’m wrong but a state school currently receives just over £7500 per student per year. Most class sizes are around 30. The cost to send my boys to their school is around £15000 a year. Most private schools as far as I’m aware (again correct me if I’m mistaken) receive no funding for pupil places. My boys class sizes are 14 and 13. With my little brain means their school makes as much from their classes as a state school does.
I say it’s a race to the bottom as for me proof is there. Like every sector in this country it has been starved of funds. Merging schools and classes is happening everywhere atm. Yet for me we need more schools and smaller class sizes. The government should be looking at the private sector as inspiration to guide them in how to build a successful state system. |
Yes, and better state education, healthcare & other public services require more funding. The only realistic way to do this is to make the middle classes (those earning 50,000+ a year) pay more tax. But voters have shown reluctance to support parties who advocate such policies, whatever they might say in response to opinion polls about whether they would pay more tax to fund better public services. Probably an issue with democracy overall - look at Macron's failure to reduce entitlement benefits such as public pensions in France. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 11:21 - Jun 17 with 2558 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 11:09 - Jun 17 by jonbull88 |
Yes it’s a race to the bottom. Correct me if I’m wrong but a state school currently receives just over £7500 per student per year. Most class sizes are around 30. The cost to send my boys to their school is around £15000 a year. Most private schools as far as I’m aware (again correct me if I’m mistaken) receive no funding for pupil places. My boys class sizes are 14 and 13. With my little brain means their school makes as much from their classes as a state school does.
I say it’s a race to the bottom as for me proof is there. Like every sector in this country it has been starved of funds. Merging schools and classes is happening everywhere atm. Yet for me we need more schools and smaller class sizes. The government should be looking at the private sector as inspiration to guide them in how to build a successful state system. |
The prestigious public school in my town charges over £13,000 a term for day pupils, and over £17,000 a term for boarders.
I remember somebody living in the street across the road from me who a few years ago had three boys at the school. I can only assume he had some sort of discount for buying in bulk, or there were wealthy grandparents, because the house he lived in wasn't that grand. [Post edited 17 Jun 2024 11:23]
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| VAT on Private School on 11:28 - Jun 17 with 2528 views | Radlett_blue |
| VAT on Private School on 11:21 - Jun 17 by DJR |
The prestigious public school in my town charges over £13,000 a term for day pupils, and over £17,000 a term for boarders.
I remember somebody living in the street across the road from me who a few years ago had three boys at the school. I can only assume he had some sort of discount for buying in bulk, or there were wealthy grandparents, because the house he lived in wasn't that grand. [Post edited 17 Jun 2024 11:23]
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Some parents - especially some with Asian backgrounds - believe hugely in investing in their children's education. And yes, in other cases, rich grandparents also help out. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 11:53 - Jun 17 with 2492 views | Zapers |
| VAT on Private School on 11:28 - Jun 17 by Radlett_blue |
Some parents - especially some with Asian backgrounds - believe hugely in investing in their children's education. And yes, in other cases, rich grandparents also help out. |
Living in Asia, I would agree with this. Parents tend to put their children first, give them the best education they can afford, and often probably cannot afford.
Of course they sometimes hope that in older age, the children will repay them, and look after their families when they become old.
In my opinion, it's an obligation that parents take when they have children. The best possible chance in life, opportunities that maybe they never had.
I just cannot comprehend why some people want to minimise the opportunities that private education should give to their children. It comes at a cost, but to most who can afford it, well worth it. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 13:06 - Jun 17 with 2444 views | redrickstuhaart |
| VAT on Private School on 11:09 - Jun 17 by jonbull88 |
Yes it’s a race to the bottom. Correct me if I’m wrong but a state school currently receives just over £7500 per student per year. Most class sizes are around 30. The cost to send my boys to their school is around £15000 a year. Most private schools as far as I’m aware (again correct me if I’m mistaken) receive no funding for pupil places. My boys class sizes are 14 and 13. With my little brain means their school makes as much from their classes as a state school does.
I say it’s a race to the bottom as for me proof is there. Like every sector in this country it has been starved of funds. Merging schools and classes is happening everywhere atm. Yet for me we need more schools and smaller class sizes. The government should be looking at the private sector as inspiration to guide them in how to build a successful state system. |
It has certainly been starved of funds. More funds become available by not giving wealthy people a tax break ! | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 13:22 - Jun 17 with 2399 views | Pinewoodblue |
Personally I believe when VAT is added to school fees, not until 2026, that it will be at a significantly lower rate than the standard rate of VAT. Never, to my knowledge, has Starmer or any Labour spokesman, said VAT will be charged at the standard rate.
Starmer will keep his pledge but the impact will be watered down. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 15:25 - Jun 17 with 2310 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 11:28 - Jun 17 by Radlett_blue |
Some parents - especially some with Asian backgrounds - believe hugely in investing in their children's education. And yes, in other cases, rich grandparents also help out. |
Interestingly though, the focus on education in a country such as South Korea does have its drawback, given how competitive it is.
https://koreapro.org/2023/11/how-south-koreas-academic-pressure-fueling-youth-me
A 2022 survey by World Without Worry About Shadow Education, an education non-governmental organization, found that one in four South Korean teenagers has contemplated suicide due to the overwhelming pressure of academic competition. [Post edited 17 Jun 2024 15:27]
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| VAT on Private School on 16:27 - Jun 17 with 2240 views | Zapers |
| VAT on Private School on 15:25 - Jun 17 by DJR |
Interestingly though, the focus on education in a country such as South Korea does have its drawback, given how competitive it is.
https://koreapro.org/2023/11/how-south-koreas-academic-pressure-fueling-youth-me
A 2022 survey by World Without Worry About Shadow Education, an education non-governmental organization, found that one in four South Korean teenagers has contemplated suicide due to the overwhelming pressure of academic competition. [Post edited 17 Jun 2024 15:27]
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South Korea has one of the highest rates of suicides in the world.
It’s not just students. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:33 - Jun 17 with 2222 views | StokieBlue |
| VAT on Private School on 16:27 - Jun 17 by Zapers |
South Korea has one of the highest rates of suicides in the world.
It’s not just students. |
What does that have to do with the stat he published which specifically states it's due to academic competition?
Classic instance of whatabouterry.
SB |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:37 - Jun 17 with 2213 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 08:52 - Jun 17 by DJR |
Do you not have any principles? |
I really hope this was asked with genuine innocence given who you’re responding to! |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:44 - Jun 17 with 2190 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 16:38 - Jun 16 by bluestandard |
Interesting example, given care fees are zero rates. Shall we add VAT to care fees then?
Imo, people quoting the need for ‘fairness’ in the tax system are missing the point, as there isn’t really an objective fairness in taxation. Taxes are levied in some areas and not in others, often to try and encourage certain behaviour. This move by Keir Starmer is influencing an exodus from the private sector. You might agree with that aim, but don’t call it fairness please. And again imo if you want to encourage that, it’s smacks of envy. |
Are you talking about elderly care and disabled care? I thought the word healthcare was pretty clear and the comparison with education obvious?
If not, you’ve made a terrible mistake or a terrible point it seems. However, the fact that public healthcare and public care is in such a parlous state, more so than education only strengthens the point.
The right wing has continually stripped away and degraded the most essential parts of society. Redressing that and making the rich pay for it is not some ideological minefield. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:52 - Jun 17 with 2177 views | Zapers |
| VAT on Private School on 16:37 - Jun 17 by Mullet |
I really hope this was asked with genuine innocence given who you’re responding to! |
What’s your point? | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:55 - Jun 17 with 2173 views | Zapers |
| VAT on Private School on 16:33 - Jun 17 by StokieBlue |
What does that have to do with the stat he published which specifically states it's due to academic competition?
Classic instance of whatabouterry.
SB |
Pick a country with a low rate of suicides. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:56 - Jun 17 with 2165 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 16:52 - Jun 17 by Zapers |
What’s your point? |
That you don’t seem to mostly. | |
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