| VAT on Private School 14:06 - Jun 13 with 30756 views | mutters |
Whilst it does seem like the correct thing to do (why are they granted VAT free / Charity status in the first place?), how on earth will the system cope if there is a mass migration to the state sector? We are already short of school places and also decent ones as well. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 21:05 - Jun 14 with 3197 views | MattinLondon |
| VAT on Private School on 20:25 - Jun 14 by Lord_Lucan |
You don't want to argue yet you choose to for no other reason than to argue.
I hurriedly picked a few instances of sacrifices off the top of my head in order to provide an example that not all children who go to private school are the children of wealthy parents.
Really not sure why you felt the need to counter that with malnutrition.
Utterly bizarre. |
Don’t know why you’re getting defensive. Someone writes a post, someone replies to it as it’s a public forum.
Utterly bizarre. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 21:06]
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| VAT on Private School on 21:24 - Jun 14 with 3152 views | RadioOrwell |
| VAT on Private School on 20:43 - Jun 14 by Crawfordsboot |
Why is it that it appears to be perfectly acceptable for parents to help their children financially so as to enable them to get on the housing ladder, but far less acceptable for them to finance their education. |
It's the VAT that's the problem. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 22:00 - Jun 14 with 3120 views | Lord_Lucan |
| VAT on Private School on 21:05 - Jun 14 by MattinLondon |
Don’t know why you’re getting defensive. Someone writes a post, someone replies to it as it’s a public forum.
Utterly bizarre. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 21:06]
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I'm not being "defensive"
I'm calling you out for being a dick. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 22:13 - Jun 14 with 3091 views | GlasgowBlue |
| VAT on Private School on 18:59 - Jun 14 by MattinLondon |
Not wishing to argue with you, but not going on holiday, not buying a newer car or not moving to a larger house in order to fund private education is not a sacrifice- it’s a life choice.
A parent choosing to go without food in order to feed their kids is a sacrifice. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 19:45]
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It's a sacrifice inasmuch as the parents could have a much better standard of living but are putting that on hold for their children's future. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 23:14 - Jun 14 with 3050 views | MattinLondon |
| VAT on Private School on 22:00 - Jun 14 by Lord_Lucan |
I'm not being "defensive"
I'm calling you out for being a dick. |
Calling me out…get you.
You defensive dickhead. Get your head out of your arse and let your brain work properly. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 23:35 - Jun 14 with 3022 views | reusersfreekicks |
| VAT on Private School on 22:13 - Jun 14 by GlasgowBlue |
It's a sacrifice inasmuch as the parents could have a much better standard of living but are putting that on hold for their children's future. |
To gain an unfair advantage over other kids? |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 23:40 - Jun 14 with 3013 views | reusersfreekicks |
| VAT on Private School on 18:32 - Jun 13 by Mullet |
It’s long overdue. The Tory lies and scare stories also implicate themselves heavily. Suggesting how badly they have made/maintained schools on their watch.
The hypocrisy of Tories being so free market, except for the gilded 7% or so is never lost on me. If private schools work and are solid businesses they will survive, and fair enough. But they are a catalyst for the growing inequality in this country. Their pupils are massively over represented in the highest paying jobs and ensure wealth, privilege and access to power are kept in the smallest possible circles.
The Covid years of awarding grades and the widespread fraud and assumptions around private school grades highlighted this perfectly.
The fact the narrative is seemingly around the tragedy of hardworking people losing something they are subsidised in having, thanks to the rest of us is incredibly revealing. The reality is that private schools will simply have to do what we have for the past decade and a bit. |
Excellent post | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 00:53 - Jun 15 with 2978 views | tractorshark |
Having been involved in cricket, I’ve seen both sides of the public school v state school divide.
I don’t have a huge amount of sympathy regarding this proposal. It has not been a level playing field for a long time and the elite like it that way.
They are happy to come up with soundbites and box-ticking exercises but there is no appetite for change or any semblance of equality, particularly in the south. And now they’re cr*pping themselves because this will upset the status quo.
I don’t know why public schools are VAT exempt but it’s probably because the rules suit the rule makers. It’s like gifting money without incurring tax implications. There are only two organisations you can give it to: One is charity and the other… political parties. |  | | |
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| VAT on Private School on 06:40 - Jun 15 with 2914 views | Crawfordsboot |
| VAT on Private School on 21:24 - Jun 14 by RadioOrwell |
It's the VAT that's the problem. |
Fact-check
Independent schools and Local authority schools both pay VAT on the inputs (costs). Local authorities are then able to reclaim the VAT paid by their schools. Independent schools are unable to do this and therefore VAT on their inputs are a direct cost to the school and therefore ultimately the parents.
Those parents have already paid taxes towards a state system and then pay additional tax via the VAT. They might well argue, as you do, that VAT is the problem!
This is not an argument in support of independent schools, simply an attempt at presenting an accurate account of VAT in education.
Exciting stuff heh! |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 11:33 - Jun 15 with 2799 views | Mullet |
Accidental down thumb on my phone there apologies and thank you |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 11:36 - Jun 15 with 2794 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 22:13 - Jun 14 by GlasgowBlue |
It's a sacrifice inasmuch as the parents could have a much better standard of living but are putting that on hold for their children's future. |
I don’t think it is insomuch as we have parents going without food etc so their kids can eat.
It’s very hard to find any sympathy when the country is so broken because of the Tories. Them playing distraction politics and culture wars with this is pretty despicable. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 11:43 - Jun 15 with 2791 views | redrickstuhaart |
| VAT on Private School on 06:40 - Jun 15 by Crawfordsboot |
Fact-check
Independent schools and Local authority schools both pay VAT on the inputs (costs). Local authorities are then able to reclaim the VAT paid by their schools. Independent schools are unable to do this and therefore VAT on their inputs are a direct cost to the school and therefore ultimately the parents.
Those parents have already paid taxes towards a state system and then pay additional tax via the VAT. They might well argue, as you do, that VAT is the problem!
This is not an argument in support of independent schools, simply an attempt at presenting an accurate account of VAT in education.
Exciting stuff heh! |
That is what VAT is.... Not a sound argument. Unless you say that vat on a car is also bad because I have already paid tax on the earnings I use to buy it. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 12:22 - Jun 15 with 2769 views | Jack27 |
Genuine question to everyone - if you could afford to send your child(ren) to a private school, would you? Or even if you could afford it would you still use the state system? |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 12:58 - Jun 15 with 2733 views | leitrimblue |
| VAT on Private School on 12:22 - Jun 15 by Jack27 |
Genuine question to everyone - if you could afford to send your child(ren) to a private school, would you? Or even if you could afford it would you still use the state system? |
Im lucky in that there is a good grammar school in the nearest town. Though if all the schools in the area were poor you would have to consider it.
At the same time if all private schools were closed and the investment was put into state schools i wouldn't need to |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 12:59 - Jun 15 with 2730 views | Kievthegreat |
| VAT on Private School on 15:55 - Jun 14 by Jack27 |
We were going to send our little boy to private school next September. We always said as we're only having one, that we could just about afford private. The 20% extra means that we now can't afford that. Like any parent all you want is the best you can give your child, and for us that was forgoing a newer car, a holiday, a bigger house - because we thought he would benefit from smaller class sizes. I was lucky enough to have a private education. It doesn't make me any better than anyone else - but it gave me more of a chance to do something at school. I can also tell you that if you think private schools are full of parents with flash cars you are mistaken. All my friends from school were like me - with normal parents in normal jobs with normal houses. Was there the exception - yes - but everyone knew who they were. |
There is nothing normal about the distribution of wealth among people who send their kids to private schools. The primary beneficiaries of private schooling are the wealthy and it's bad if we give them tax benefits.
VAT on private schools is the correct and fair decision. It sucks for you that they are on the threshold by your sacrifice, but it's a flawed system being fixed. The only way I think you could make it easier in your sort of situation where you are on the edge is if you tied the VAT to household income and said if you're below say £50k household income, you get the VAT refunded. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 13:04 - Jun 15 with 2705 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 12:22 - Jun 15 by Jack27 |
Genuine question to everyone - if you could afford to send your child(ren) to a private school, would you? Or even if you could afford it would you still use the state system? |
I could have done but, as a matter of principle, never ever contemplated that route (despite offers of help from my parents) because I dislike the inequality that private schools have embedded in our society for centuries. [Post edited 15 Jun 2024 13:13]
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| VAT on Private School on 13:05 - Jun 15 with 2699 views | leitrimblue |
| VAT on Private School on 22:00 - Jun 14 by Lord_Lucan |
I'm not being "defensive"
I'm calling you out for being a dick. |
A tad weird | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 13:10 - Jun 15 with 2684 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 06:40 - Jun 15 by Crawfordsboot |
Fact-check
Independent schools and Local authority schools both pay VAT on the inputs (costs). Local authorities are then able to reclaim the VAT paid by their schools. Independent schools are unable to do this and therefore VAT on their inputs are a direct cost to the school and therefore ultimately the parents.
Those parents have already paid taxes towards a state system and then pay additional tax via the VAT. They might well argue, as you do, that VAT is the problem!
This is not an argument in support of independent schools, simply an attempt at presenting an accurate account of VAT in education.
Exciting stuff heh! |
Setting off the inputs will soften the blow somewhat.
More generally, I could see Labour kicking this into the long grass. As it is, with no summer budget, the earliest starting date would be the academic year beginning in September 2026 because it wouldn't be fair or practical to bring it in during an earlier academic year. [Post edited 15 Jun 2024 13:11]
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| VAT on Private School on 13:20 - Jun 15 with 2647 views | Plums |
| VAT on Private School on 14:38 - Jun 13 by baxterbasics |
It seems like a textbook 'hurt the rich for the sake of equality' policy which has been badly thought through. A rare concession from Starmer to the left of the party.
Believe it will make the UK the only country in Europe to tax education (but ready to be fact-checked on this).
But I also think there will be some room for the schools themselves to take the hit, rather than parents, so maybe it won't be as impactful as predicted? |
Nobody's mentioned the fact that if we were in the EU it would be impossible to charge VAT on education.
Given who led the leave campaign, pardon me for having a chuckle at the irony. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 13:37 - Jun 15 with 2604 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 00:53 - Jun 15 by tractorshark |
Having been involved in cricket, I’ve seen both sides of the public school v state school divide.
I don’t have a huge amount of sympathy regarding this proposal. It has not been a level playing field for a long time and the elite like it that way.
They are happy to come up with soundbites and box-ticking exercises but there is no appetite for change or any semblance of equality, particularly in the south. And now they’re cr*pping themselves because this will upset the status quo.
I don’t know why public schools are VAT exempt but it’s probably because the rules suit the rule makers. It’s like gifting money without incurring tax implications. There are only two organisations you can give it to: One is charity and the other… political parties. |
I'd be interested in hearing what you define Elite as these days. There is a large number of Private School kids who do not come from an Elite background, or what I would term super wealthy. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 13:38 - Jun 15 with 2603 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 13:20 - Jun 15 by Plums |
Nobody's mentioned the fact that if we were in the EU it would be impossible to charge VAT on education.
Given who led the leave campaign, pardon me for having a chuckle at the irony. |
Nigel's grandchildren have got their country back!
This is the current version of the Directive which requires education to be exempt from VAT.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112
and this is what is required to be exempt (with wording reflected in the Value Added Tax Act 1994).
"the provision of children's or young people's education, school or university education, vocational training or retraining, including the supply of services and of goods closely related thereto, by bodies governed by public law having such as their aim or by other organisations recognised by the Member State concerned as having similar objects." [Post edited 15 Jun 2024 14:53]
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| VAT on Private School on 14:06 - Jun 15 with 2560 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 13:37 - Jun 15 by mutters |
I'd be interested in hearing what you define Elite as these days. There is a large number of Private School kids who do not come from an Elite background, or what I would term super wealthy. |
Off the top of my head the true “elite” are the top 6% of earners as defined by the great social class study of 2011(ish).
Given that’s broadly in line with the % of kids in private schools then the best case scenario for the influx would be the 1% difference.
Even if those rudimentary numbers are correct, out of that 1% of children in the country, most of their parents would be closer the top 6% and still in the top ten % of earners.
I’m not going to dismiss every single kid in private school and say none fit this parents giving up sacrifices (although that’s a subjective term) or standing on tiptoes to afford it, but we are now microslicing the population from a sample already in a state of privilege.
If all of this doesn’t illuminate how stacked against us wealth and fairness is in this country, I’m not sure what will. I’d rather pity the millions of people living in poverty and build back up from there. To be honest if these nice upper middle class kids find their way into the state system, then surely if private schooling is really that good, it benefits the state system too?
Of course if what we really want to protect is social engineering and a class divide then it’s a discussion worth having too. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:49 - Jun 15 with 2499 views | Lord_Lucan |
| VAT on Private School on 13:05 - Jun 15 by leitrimblue |
A tad weird |
Why is it?
The bloke acted like a melon. He starts with "Not wishing to argue" and then follows it up with a nonsensical argument, purely because he wanted to argue.
I mean, you can read this and other forums and shrug your shoulders, but some days, some times, you get fed up with divs. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 15:34 - Jun 15 with 2445 views | MattinLondon |
| VAT on Private School on 14:49 - Jun 15 by Lord_Lucan |
Why is it?
The bloke acted like a melon. He starts with "Not wishing to argue" and then follows it up with a nonsensical argument, purely because he wanted to argue.
I mean, you can read this and other forums and shrug your shoulders, but some days, some times, you get fed up with divs. |
There’s doubling down and then there’s doubling down. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 15:35 - Jun 15 with 2444 views | leitrimblue |
| VAT on Private School on 14:49 - Jun 15 by Lord_Lucan |
Why is it?
The bloke acted like a melon. He starts with "Not wishing to argue" and then follows it up with a nonsensical argument, purely because he wanted to argue.
I mean, you can read this and other forums and shrug your shoulders, but some days, some times, you get fed up with divs. |
Fair enough, looked to me that you set out a fair argument that he politely disagreed with and set out his counter arguement.
Seems pretty basic forum stuff and no more dickie then thousands of interactions that occur on this forum every week.
Feck, think I've missed out on a excellent opportunity here. Should have just said I'm not wishing to argue then called you a dick  . | | | |
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