| VAT on Private School 14:06 - Jun 13 with 31339 views | mutters |
Whilst it does seem like the correct thing to do (why are they granted VAT free / Charity status in the first place?), how on earth will the system cope if there is a mass migration to the state sector? We are already short of school places and also decent ones as well. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 23:17 - Jun 13 with 4588 views | jonbull88 |
| VAT on Private School on 23:04 - Jun 13 by redrickstuhaart |
So you will agree to increase what you contribute in return for a magic money tree?
Its a luxury. They ARE saying that the extra will be used ti improve schools. |
Just like the road tax is used to fill potholes and the extra £350m a week to the nhs you mean 🤣
This is like everything else in life, a race to the bottom |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 23:36 - Jun 13 with 4567 views | redrickstuhaart |
| VAT on Private School on 23:17 - Jun 13 by jonbull88 |
Just like the road tax is used to fill potholes and the extra £350m a week to the nhs you mean 🤣
This is like everything else in life, a race to the bottom |
Its a race to the bottom? To treat a luxury privilege enjoyed by a wealthy minority, the same as other luxury privileges from a tax perspective?
Who knows how well the money might be spent, but to question the principle is difficult to understand. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 06:22 - Jun 14 with 4482 views | dickie |
| VAT on Private School on 23:17 - Jun 13 by jonbull88 |
Just like the road tax is used to fill potholes and the extra £350m a week to the nhs you mean 🤣
This is like everything else in life, a race to the bottom |
There's no such thing as road tax and hasn't been for about 100 years | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 08:17 - Jun 14 with 4439 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 22:57 - Jun 13 by dickie |
I work in a grammar school. Every child I teach had a tutor to get through the 11+ when they were in primary school. |
I live in a grammar school area and the schools are the preserve of the prosperous middle class, which is nothing like Northgate when I went there in the 1970s.
To pass the 11 plus, parents either send their child to public or private schools, which are 11 plus factories, or pay for tutors.
In contrast state primary schools do not do any practice for the 11 plus exams (which do require practice). The result is that some bright children from state primary schools do not pass, when less bright privileged children do.
Those who say we need grammar schools throughout the country don't realise they are a bastion of the privileged, and unlike in the past have nothing to do with social mobility. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 09:14 - Jun 14 with 4397 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Perhaps the answer is to pay teachers more and have more schools?
Just like you need more hospitals, re-establish care in the community and have some more people in the health services.
People of a certain age can remember schools closing because there weren’t enough kids to keep them open…. At the same time utilities, infrastructure, BP, social housing etc under public ownership were all sold off for profit. Imagine if ‘we’ owned all that now. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 09:25 - Jun 14 with 4380 views | dickie |
| VAT on Private School on 08:17 - Jun 14 by DJR |
I live in a grammar school area and the schools are the preserve of the prosperous middle class, which is nothing like Northgate when I went there in the 1970s.
To pass the 11 plus, parents either send their child to public or private schools, which are 11 plus factories, or pay for tutors.
In contrast state primary schools do not do any practice for the 11 plus exams (which do require practice). The result is that some bright children from state primary schools do not pass, when less bright privileged children do.
Those who say we need grammar schools throughout the country don't realise they are a bastion of the privileged, and unlike in the past have nothing to do with social mobility. |
Exactly this. The school I work in is the preference
over the local private schools - the kids who fail the 11+ go to the private schools as their second choice. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 09:39 - Jun 14 with 4359 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 09:25 - Jun 14 by dickie |
Exactly this. The school I work in is the preference
over the local private schools - the kids who fail the 11+ go to the private schools as their second choice. |
In the area where I live (with the four best schools in Kent, two public and two grammar), there are plenty wealth enough to prefer the public school system, but the grammar schools offer an equally good alternative, which those perhaps not so wealthy are more than happy use. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 09:43 - Jun 14 with 4350 views | crouchendyachtclub |
| VAT on Private School on 15:22 - Jun 13 by itfc48 |
I wonder what sort of figures they've run. 20% on £15k is £3k however the funding for a state primary pupil is over £4.5k and a secondary pupil nearly £6k so if they end up in a mass migration scenario they may not actually raise a large net sum via this policy. |
This calculation doesn't really consider the incremental cost though.
The reality would be that as private schools don't have a catchment area, individual schools would see single digit rises in their pupil numbers. They wouldn't be hiring any new teachers or support staff to cover that, or be requiring any additional investment in fixed assets. The only real costs would be in consumables . | | | |
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| VAT on Private School on 10:01 - Jun 14 with 4309 views | Pinewoodblue |
Starmer will compromise with a lower VAT rate, say 10%. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 10:13 - Jun 14 with 4291 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 10:01 - Jun 14 by Pinewoodblue |
Starmer will compromise with a lower VAT rate, say 10%. |
I think you may well be right. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 10:16 - Jun 14 with 4270 views | NorthLondonBlue2 |
It’s very difficult to sympathise with those whose children, in the worst case scenario, are going to receive a free state education and save many thousands of pounds a year in so doing.
For those who say it’s in any way shape or form a bad thing to go to state schools, have a go at answering ‘why?’ | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 15:55 - Jun 14 with 4164 views | Jack27 |
We were going to send our little boy to private school next September. We always said as we're only having one, that we could just about afford private. The 20% extra means that we now can't afford that. Like any parent all you want is the best you can give your child, and for us that was forgoing a newer car, a holiday, a bigger house - because we thought he would benefit from smaller class sizes. I was lucky enough to have a private education. It doesn't make me any better than anyone else - but it gave me more of a chance to do something at school. I can also tell you that if you think private schools are full of parents with flash cars you are mistaken. All my friends from school were like me - with normal parents in normal jobs with normal houses. Was there the exception - yes - but everyone knew who they were. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:02 - Jun 14 with 4158 views | bluestandard |
| VAT on Private School on 14:17 - Jun 13 by itfcjoe |
I think there is a difference now from when i was younger where private school has got so prohibitively expensive it is out of reach of even the well paid professionals who used to send kids there like Drs, lawyers etc.
It's really only for those with a bit of family money behind them, or very high earners.
Ipswich, St Joes, Woodbridge, etc are all now £15k a year per child - for a family with 2 kids you are currently needing to find £30k a year after tax - with the best will in the world a couple where both are earning £50k a year just simply couldn't afford it.
If people can find £30k a year after tax, chances are it isn't from income, so would be able to find a bit more if they want to continue to send kids there - or the school will need to meet them half way.
I can't afford the VAT on a new Lambo but don't expect much sympathy for it! |
Cant believe this has been liked so many times, yet is so ill informed. I know lots of people in the income bracket you have stated who send their children to private school. They stretch themselves because they want something better for their children. This is the politics of envy. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:18 - Jun 14 with 4128 views | RadioOrwell |
| VAT on Private School on 16:02 - Jun 14 by bluestandard |
Cant believe this has been liked so many times, yet is so ill informed. I know lots of people in the income bracket you have stated who send their children to private school. They stretch themselves because they want something better for their children. This is the politics of envy. |
It's not envy.
I went to a private school.
If you can't afford something you want because of the VAT then you can't afford it. Like anything in life.
It's fine to want something better for your kids but not fine to get tax breaks for it. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:21 - Jun 14 with 4122 views | giant_stow |
| VAT on Private School on 16:02 - Jun 14 by bluestandard |
Cant believe this has been liked so many times, yet is so ill informed. I know lots of people in the income bracket you have stated who send their children to private school. They stretch themselves because they want something better for their children. This is the politics of envy. |
I don't think it's about envy - more fairness of opportunity and that opportunity not being decided by ability to pay for it. To then have tax breaks on top, paid for by all of society, just makes it an even more bitter pill to swallow. I'm glad this change is happening - it's just a shame such schools didn't lose their charitable status too.
Ideally, there'd be no private schools at all - watch the standard of all schools go up if that ever came about - but I understand freedom of choice is important too. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:29 - Jun 14 with 4098 views | tractorboy1978 |
| VAT on Private School on 16:21 - Jun 14 by giant_stow |
I don't think it's about envy - more fairness of opportunity and that opportunity not being decided by ability to pay for it. To then have tax breaks on top, paid for by all of society, just makes it an even more bitter pill to swallow. I'm glad this change is happening - it's just a shame such schools didn't lose their charitable status too.
Ideally, there'd be no private schools at all - watch the standard of all schools go up if that ever came about - but I understand freedom of choice is important too. |
I think it is fanciful to expect the standard of all schools to go up if there were no private schools. It would be exactly the same as it is now where you'd have a varying quality of state schools and a child's opportunity would be driven by locational factors. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:36 - Jun 14 with 4082 views | giant_stow |
| VAT on Private School on 16:29 - Jun 14 by tractorboy1978 |
I think it is fanciful to expect the standard of all schools to go up if there were no private schools. It would be exactly the same as it is now where you'd have a varying quality of state schools and a child's opportunity would be driven by locational factors. |
I see what you're saying and you might be right, but I think if the children of the wealthy and elite were forced into the same system as the rest, they'd demand / ensure a better standard overall. Global competition / freedom of movement would see to that. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:59 - Jun 14 with 4053 views | Lord_Lucan |
| VAT on Private School on 16:36 - Jun 14 by giant_stow |
I see what you're saying and you might be right, but I think if the children of the wealthy and elite were forced into the same system as the rest, they'd demand / ensure a better standard overall. Global competition / freedom of movement would see to that. |
I confess I haven't read the thread and haven't got time if I am honest, I just saw the title and clicked on last page.
Probably been mentioned before but not every private school is like Eton or Harrow. Many parents choose to sacrifice going on holiday, buying a newer car or moving to a larger house, purely to put their kids through the best education they can.
Fair play to them I say. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 17:02 - Jun 14 with 4048 views | RadioOrwell |
| VAT on Private School on 16:29 - Jun 14 by tractorboy1978 |
I think it is fanciful to expect the standard of all schools to go up if there were no private schools. It would be exactly the same as it is now where you'd have a varying quality of state schools and a child's opportunity would be driven by locational factors. |
The state of our schools is a political choice.
If there is enough push to improve them - especially from the powerful and wealthy - it would absolutely change.
( I'm not arguing to ban private schools btw ) | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 18:15 - Jun 14 with 4005 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 22:38 - Jun 13 by jonbull88 |
As a parent of children fortunate enough to attend a private school, having to pay another 1/5 will be an almighty stretch. However my boys are in classes of 13 and 14 respectively. At the local state they would be in a class size of 30. My eldest requires extra help which he receives thanks in part to the small class sizes.
I fully accept the registered charity uproar, however for me starmer would more likely get my vote if he had said we will charge vat to private schools, but we will cap state school classes at 20-25 and use the extra income to build/replace hundreds of schools. |
He can't do that because the Tories have fcuked education.
Unions and Heads have been fighting for things like that for years under them. Instead the Tory press have belittled and discredited the profession, alongside the government causing a massive retention and recruitment crisis.
There aren't enough of us as it is. With a baby boom currently making Year 9 much bigger nationally, you've got two more years until the school population even drops off a little. What I will credit Starmer's manifesto with is the commitment to SEND kids.
The only problem is the same principle applies. Schools and places are already massively stretched, and SEND is in an even worse state than the rest of education. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 18:59 - Jun 14 with 3962 views | MattinLondon |
| VAT on Private School on 16:59 - Jun 14 by Lord_Lucan |
I confess I haven't read the thread and haven't got time if I am honest, I just saw the title and clicked on last page.
Probably been mentioned before but not every private school is like Eton or Harrow. Many parents choose to sacrifice going on holiday, buying a newer car or moving to a larger house, purely to put their kids through the best education they can.
Fair play to them I say. |
Not wishing to argue with you, but not going on holiday, not buying a newer car or not moving to a larger house in order to fund private education is not a sacrifice- it’s a life choice.
A parent choosing to go without food in order to feed their kids is a sacrifice. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 19:45]
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| VAT on Private School on 20:09 - Jun 14 with 3880 views | Crawfordsboot |
Clearly there is a perfectly valid philosophical argument to be had re the question of private schools operating alongside a state school system. However there is much ill informed rubbish bandied about in these posts.
VAT - Education is exempt from VAT therefore independent schools are unable to recover vat incurred on their expenses, electricity included. If The exemption is cancelled they will then be able to recover the vat on their expenses. The net impact will therefore be considerably less than the headline 20%.
Charitable Status is a powerful influencer that gets many professionally qualified experts involved in giving their time and expertise f.o.c. to advance education, not just to full fee payers but also to scholarship, bursary and community involvement. People are happy to serve as Governor/Trustees They are not allowed to be paid. They do it as a social contribution. Government would be wise to try to harness this not just legislate it out of existence.
Just as significant, perhaps more significant than VAT, is the rates relief that many independent schools enjoy. Far more than the VAT question I would argue that this needs to be addressed.
The great problem with our system in the UK is that the independent sector removes a whole set of articulate influencers, parents and grandparents, from the state system. These parents have no vested interest in the state sector and it is therefore neglected, losing a powerful set of voices.
To broaden the discussion - why is it acceptable for religious foundation schools to be funded by the taxpayer but be able to deny my children entry because they are they are not raised in a particular religion. This affects huge numbers of children. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 20:11]
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| VAT on Private School on 20:25 - Jun 14 with 3857 views | Lord_Lucan |
| VAT on Private School on 18:59 - Jun 14 by MattinLondon |
Not wishing to argue with you, but not going on holiday, not buying a newer car or not moving to a larger house in order to fund private education is not a sacrifice- it’s a life choice.
A parent choosing to go without food in order to feed their kids is a sacrifice. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 19:45]
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You don't want to argue yet you choose to for no other reason than to argue.
I hurriedly picked a few instances of sacrifices off the top of my head in order to provide an example that not all children who go to private school are the children of wealthy parents.
Really not sure why you felt the need to counter that with malnutrition.
Utterly bizarre. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 20:43 - Jun 14 with 3816 views | Crawfordsboot |
Why is it that it appears to be perfectly acceptable for parents to help their children financially so as to enable them to get on the housing ladder, but far less acceptable for them to finance their education. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 20:59 - Jun 14 with 3791 views | TractorWood |
I get public school at one level.
However, at another level, surely it's better to stick them in state school and put £200k in an isa for them.
I'm less interested in the traditional debate and more interested in the outcomes and ROI! |  |
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