| VAT on Private School 14:06 - Jun 13 with 29391 views | mutters |
Whilst it does seem like the correct thing to do (why are they granted VAT free / Charity status in the first place?), how on earth will the system cope if there is a mass migration to the state sector? We are already short of school places and also decent ones as well. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:40 - Jun 13 with 3389 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 14:40 - Jun 13 by Swansea_Blue |
I'm on the fence. On the face of it, they should have to add VAT as they're providing a commercial exchange. But then private health care and dentists are VAT exempted, so why not another key sector?
I suspect the majority of parents could afford i, and that's just judging from the rows of brand new £80k+ cars that line up outside the private schools here. Some would possibly struggle of course.
I'd rather we brought the state sector up and got rid of private schools altogether. We could have one system that everyone is proud of. Maybe politicians could be forced to only use public services - we'd soon see an improvement! |
When I was a kid we went to the US for a family holiday and I remember asking my dad how come all these people had nice big brand new cars. He responded that the vast majority of people don't own their cars, they just rent them. I always thought it was quite amusing, but it's so prevalent over here nowdays. Having a nice fancy car means nothing these days, so long as you can afford a few hundred pounds per month. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:43 - Jun 13 with 3367 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 15:22 - Jun 13 by itfc48 |
I wonder what sort of figures they've run. 20% on £15k is £3k however the funding for a state primary pupil is over £4.5k and a secondary pupil nearly £6k so if they end up in a mass migration scenario they may not actually raise a large net sum via this policy. |
Interesting numbers. Also, private school pupils' parents are already contributing to the social system and are paying for their kids to attend state school, they just choose not to take up the place. It's not like they get a tax rebate or some concessions (not saying they should) | |
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| VAT on Private School on 18:11 - Jun 13 with 3278 views | BlueBadger |
| VAT on Private School on 14:38 - Jun 13 by baxterbasics |
It seems like a textbook 'hurt the rich for the sake of equality' policy which has been badly thought through. A rare concession from Starmer to the left of the party.
Believe it will make the UK the only country in Europe to tax education (but ready to be fact-checked on this).
But I also think there will be some room for the schools themselves to take the hit, rather than parents, so maybe it won't be as impactful as predicted? |
Surely if people can't afford this, they should budget their meals better and spend less money on fags, booze, flat screen tellies and Netflix subs? [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 18:17]
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| VAT on Private School on 18:16 - Jun 13 with 3266 views | BlueBadger |
| VAT on Private School on 16:17 - Jun 13 by MattinLondon |
Sending kids to private school is a life choice and so their scrimping and saving is down to them. No real sympathy at all. |
VAT on Private School by BlueBadger 13 Jun 2024 18:11Surely if people can't afford this, they should budget their meals better and spend less money on fags, booze, flat screen tellies and Netflix subs?
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| VAT on Private School on 18:32 - Jun 13 with 3250 views | Mullet |
It’s long overdue. The Tory lies and scare stories also implicate themselves heavily. Suggesting how badly they have made/maintained schools on their watch.
The hypocrisy of Tories being so free market, except for the gilded 7% or so is never lost on me. If private schools work and are solid businesses they will survive, and fair enough. But they are a catalyst for the growing inequality in this country. Their pupils are massively over represented in the highest paying jobs and ensure wealth, privilege and access to power are kept in the smallest possible circles.
The Covid years of awarding grades and the widespread fraud and assumptions around private school grades highlighted this perfectly.
The fact the narrative is seemingly around the tragedy of hardworking people losing something they are subsidised in having, thanks to the rest of us is incredibly revealing. The reality is that private schools will simply have to do what we have for the past decade and a bit. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 18:34 - Jun 13 with 3246 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 14:29 - Jun 13 by Zx1988 |
There was a very good More or Less on R4 about this yesterday:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00202g3
It's worth a listen, but the broad gist is this:
1) Private schools make up about 8% of the UK education sector.
2) At the moment a baby boom is slowly working its way through the state sector, with the majority sitting across the Primary-to-High School divide.
3) As the boom works its way through, class sizes should drop about 8% from their peaks.
On this basis, assuming that every private school closed and every single student moved into the state sector, there would be enough capacity in the state sector to pick up the extra demand.
In reality, there are a good number of pupils in the private sector that are foreign nationals, and would probably move elsewhere. Likewise, it will be down to schools themselves to decide how much of the increase due to VAT they will pass on to parents. I can't imagine that any private schools are living on a hand-to-mouth basis, so there will be plenty of scope within the sector to not just hike all fees by 20%. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 14:31]
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It was excellent as ever. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 18:51 - Jun 13 with 3213 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 18:32 - Jun 13 by Mullet |
It’s long overdue. The Tory lies and scare stories also implicate themselves heavily. Suggesting how badly they have made/maintained schools on their watch.
The hypocrisy of Tories being so free market, except for the gilded 7% or so is never lost on me. If private schools work and are solid businesses they will survive, and fair enough. But they are a catalyst for the growing inequality in this country. Their pupils are massively over represented in the highest paying jobs and ensure wealth, privilege and access to power are kept in the smallest possible circles.
The Covid years of awarding grades and the widespread fraud and assumptions around private school grades highlighted this perfectly.
The fact the narrative is seemingly around the tragedy of hardworking people losing something they are subsidised in having, thanks to the rest of us is incredibly revealing. The reality is that private schools will simply have to do what we have for the past decade and a bit. |
There is no question that VAT / Charity status does give them a financial benefit, it could be counter-argued that the parents of private school pupils are subsidising the state sector by still paying their taxes but not taking up a place at the local state school, so more money and spaces to go around.
Private schools will survive, there will always be a certain level of demand for them., though some will fold. It will hit the middle class more as what I can see happening is these people will now have more disposable income and will instead buy houses nearer the better state schools, driving up prices and forcing those who can no longer afford to live in those areas away. Inequality will rear its head again, just in a different format. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 19:01 - Jun 13 with 3202 views | cooperd5 |
| VAT on Private School on 14:38 - Jun 13 by baxterbasics |
It seems like a textbook 'hurt the rich for the sake of equality' policy which has been badly thought through. A rare concession from Starmer to the left of the party.
Believe it will make the UK the only country in Europe to tax education (but ready to be fact-checked on this).
But I also think there will be some room for the schools themselves to take the hit, rather than parents, so maybe it won't be as impactful as predicted? |
its not taxing education though is it? It's "levelling up" the fact that private schools can reclaim VAT whereas state ones can't.
If you started today, there is no way a private school would qualify as a Charity (which is how they get their VAT back) - its an ancronism from 100's of years ago and really does lead to 2-tier education. |  | | |
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| VAT on Private School on 19:23 - Jun 13 with 3179 views | Mullet |
| VAT on Private School on 18:51 - Jun 13 by mutters |
There is no question that VAT / Charity status does give them a financial benefit, it could be counter-argued that the parents of private school pupils are subsidising the state sector by still paying their taxes but not taking up a place at the local state school, so more money and spaces to go around.
Private schools will survive, there will always be a certain level of demand for them., though some will fold. It will hit the middle class more as what I can see happening is these people will now have more disposable income and will instead buy houses nearer the better state schools, driving up prices and forcing those who can no longer afford to live in those areas away. Inequality will rear its head again, just in a different format. |
It’s a terrible argument though as private school is a choice. Same as healthcare.
All of it should pay its way or go bust. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 19:24 - Jun 13 with 3177 views | Pinewoodblue |
Don't registered charities also pay a reduced rate of VAT on purchases , believe is around 5%.. Think they also pay no VAT on energy.
Presumably they lose this 'benefit' so will off set all VAT paid against VAT collected.
The devil is in the detail |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 19:25 - Jun 13 with 3178 views | Guthrum |
The reason for charitable status is historical.
In the era after Henry VIII's dissolution of the monasteries (which, up to that point had provided a lot of education for the populace) and before the advent of universal, free schooling, there were very few options to learn. A few subsidised schools for the poor had been founded during the latter Middle Ages, by kings (e.g. Henry VI and Eton) or other wealthy individuals. Another wave appeared in the earlier part of the period we're talking about. Places where families with no money could send their bright children to get a good education.
As time passed, they started taking fee-paying students as well, to bolster income (inflation having eroded some of the original endowments). But schools still had - and retain to this day - an array of scholarships and bursaries designed to allow children who couldn't otherwise afford it to attend. Often expanded far beyond the original charter.
It is that original intent and continuing subsidisation which is recognised in the charitable status accorded to public and private schools.
Whether that is still relevant in an era of universal, free, high-quality education is a matter for debate. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 19:34 - Jun 13 with 3146 views | Bugs |
| VAT on Private School on 18:51 - Jun 13 by mutters |
There is no question that VAT / Charity status does give them a financial benefit, it could be counter-argued that the parents of private school pupils are subsidising the state sector by still paying their taxes but not taking up a place at the local state school, so more money and spaces to go around.
Private schools will survive, there will always be a certain level of demand for them., though some will fold. It will hit the middle class more as what I can see happening is these people will now have more disposable income and will instead buy houses nearer the better state schools, driving up prices and forcing those who can no longer afford to live in those areas away. Inequality will rear its head again, just in a different format. |
Finland banned private education for profit, full stop. That is one of the reasons it has one of the best education systems in the world.
When the richest in society actually have to send their kids to the same schools as the plebs, you will find that schools will get the funding they need. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 19:36 - Jun 13 with 3142 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 19:23 - Jun 13 by Mullet |
It’s a terrible argument though as private school is a choice. Same as healthcare.
All of it should pay its way or go bust. |
I am just thinking about the potential impact when Labour implement this. Sadly the poor will still be impacted, just in a different way.
I used to live in the Bromley area, and the house prices around Hayes school and the Langley schools are just incredible as the wealthy have just bought into the catchment area pushing others who can't afford it out. There should be a consistent level of education for everyone, but we all know that's not the way of the world we currently live in.
I just struggle to see what Labour will achieve with this, apart from appeasement to part of the party and maybe a bit of extra cash. However it will cost them more than it saves if the figures in the post above are correct. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 19:42 - Jun 13 with 3132 views | Clutch |
I've worked in state and private education.
VAT on fees will make some schools go bust, most private schools are small and don't make money anyway. The elite schools will never go bust, they have money on money!
But, I think they should charge VAT on fees, they're a business after all. But if they're educating children, they should get some form of state funding.
Private schools don't have better teachers at all either, it's not an improved level of actual education. But they have smaller classes most the time, and it's more about setting up friendship circles really. It's not what you know, it's who you know is always true. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 19:48 - Jun 13 with 3113 views | Swansea_Blue |
| VAT on Private School on 19:24 - Jun 13 by Pinewoodblue |
Don't registered charities also pay a reduced rate of VAT on purchases , believe is around 5%.. Think they also pay no VAT on energy.
Presumably they lose this 'benefit' so will off set all VAT paid against VAT collected.
The devil is in the detail |
Two levels for charities - 5% and 0% depending on the nature of the product/service. Fuel/energy is normally 5%. Universities are charities and we can zero rate a lot of our research expenditure, but the rules are fairly complex. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 20:44 - Jun 13 with 3039 views | Clapham_Junction |
| VAT on Private School on 19:34 - Jun 13 by Bugs |
Finland banned private education for profit, full stop. That is one of the reasons it has one of the best education systems in the world.
When the richest in society actually have to send their kids to the same schools as the plebs, you will find that schools will get the funding they need. |
Completely agree. If people were willing to donate the money they spend on private education to their local school, we'd have amazing education facilities. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 20:44 - Jun 13 with 3030 views | redrickstuhaart |
| VAT on Private School on 19:36 - Jun 13 by mutters |
I am just thinking about the potential impact when Labour implement this. Sadly the poor will still be impacted, just in a different way.
I used to live in the Bromley area, and the house prices around Hayes school and the Langley schools are just incredible as the wealthy have just bought into the catchment area pushing others who can't afford it out. There should be a consistent level of education for everyone, but we all know that's not the way of the world we currently live in.
I just struggle to see what Labour will achieve with this, apart from appeasement to part of the party and maybe a bit of extra cash. However it will cost them more than it saves if the figures in the post above are correct. |
Hardly any people will move schools as a result.
Its typical alarmist nonsense.
If you can afford 30k a year for a school, you can do 36k if you choose, save for a very small group who have absolutely pushed the limits already.
If you are paying 15k, then you can manage 18. Etc.
Frankly if you can pay 15k a year for a couple of kids, you are earning a fortune already. I have never seriously contemplated putting my kids into private school despite being, in many eyes, "well paid".
These people are buying a luxury item. Luxury items should carry vat. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 20:47]
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| VAT on Private School on 20:51 - Jun 13 with 3016 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 19:34 - Jun 13 by Bugs |
Finland banned private education for profit, full stop. That is one of the reasons it has one of the best education systems in the world.
When the richest in society actually have to send their kids to the same schools as the plebs, you will find that schools will get the funding they need. |
Yep like this a lot. Fair playing field for everyone. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 21:00 - Jun 13 with 2999 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 20:44 - Jun 13 by redrickstuhaart |
Hardly any people will move schools as a result.
Its typical alarmist nonsense.
If you can afford 30k a year for a school, you can do 36k if you choose, save for a very small group who have absolutely pushed the limits already.
If you are paying 15k, then you can manage 18. Etc.
Frankly if you can pay 15k a year for a couple of kids, you are earning a fortune already. I have never seriously contemplated putting my kids into private school despite being, in many eyes, "well paid".
These people are buying a luxury item. Luxury items should carry vat. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 20:47]
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Nope sorry I disagree. I don't think it's as simple as saying it "only" an extra 3 grand, it's very blase to say that. You'd be surprised the amount of people who really scrimp and save to send their kids to private school. Especially when the local schools are category 4 and have a bad reputation. They don't want to take a chance of their child being lost in the system. People get second jobs to pay for their kids education.
Maybe to you an extra 3k is nothing because you are well paid, to many it's a lot. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 21:02 - Jun 13 with 2995 views | redrickstuhaart |
| VAT on Private School on 21:00 - Jun 13 by mutters |
Nope sorry I disagree. I don't think it's as simple as saying it "only" an extra 3 grand, it's very blase to say that. You'd be surprised the amount of people who really scrimp and save to send their kids to private school. Especially when the local schools are category 4 and have a bad reputation. They don't want to take a chance of their child being lost in the system. People get second jobs to pay for their kids education.
Maybe to you an extra 3k is nothing because you are well paid, to many it's a lot. |
Its a lot of money but the number of people who can afford school fees, but not afford the vat is going to be very small.
I cant afford private school. Its too expensive. The fees are generally just the start of it. Its a luxury. There is no reason for society to subsidise it for the benefit of very wealthy people. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 21:03]
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| VAT on Private School on 21:55 - Jun 13 with 2932 views | DJR |
I live an area with two of the best public schools in the country, as well as other very good public schools and associated prep schools.
There is a grammar school system, and there are also private schools whose main aim appears to be either to get people into grammar schools or to teach those who have failed to pass the 11 plus.
My daughter is a teacher in a primary school in the area, and this year has told me there has been quite an influx of children from what I assume are private rather than public schools. Indeed one class has received five pupils.
The reason appears to be that their parents can't afford fees or the increase in fees, which presumably has nothing to do with Labour's proposals and is more down to the cost of living.
This suggests to me that Labour's proposals could have a pretty large impact, especially in the area where I live, with those in private (as opposed to public) schools presumably more affected as even though the fees are generally lower than public schools, their parents (or grandparents) don't tend to have the wealth of those whose children go to public and prep schools.
Whether funding will be increased for additional pupils is an interesting question, but one thing that has also taken place appears in certain cases to be the effective offloading of pupils with special educational needs, this putting additional pressure on my daughter's school. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 22:10]
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| VAT on Private School on 22:34 - Jun 13 with 2847 views | mutters |
| VAT on Private School on 21:55 - Jun 13 by DJR |
I live an area with two of the best public schools in the country, as well as other very good public schools and associated prep schools.
There is a grammar school system, and there are also private schools whose main aim appears to be either to get people into grammar schools or to teach those who have failed to pass the 11 plus.
My daughter is a teacher in a primary school in the area, and this year has told me there has been quite an influx of children from what I assume are private rather than public schools. Indeed one class has received five pupils.
The reason appears to be that their parents can't afford fees or the increase in fees, which presumably has nothing to do with Labour's proposals and is more down to the cost of living.
This suggests to me that Labour's proposals could have a pretty large impact, especially in the area where I live, with those in private (as opposed to public) schools presumably more affected as even though the fees are generally lower than public schools, their parents (or grandparents) don't tend to have the wealth of those whose children go to public and prep schools.
Whether funding will be increased for additional pupils is an interesting question, but one thing that has also taken place appears in certain cases to be the effective offloading of pupils with special educational needs, this putting additional pressure on my daughter's school. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 22:10]
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From what friends have said their schools have already pushed up their fees in anticipation of Labour getting in. One has gone from £5k to £7k per term in the space of 3 years they have actively informed the parents that labour potentially VAT change is one of the core reasons why it's being put up in advance. Cost of living must also have something to do with that as well.
Good point on the grammar schools. The competition is going to be horrendous even more so now, though there is an argument that at least it's selective so if a child is brighter enough they will get in. However what will happen is that lots of this spare income will now be spent on tuition to aid the kids to get the dwindling Grammer school places.
I just have a feeling it's going to get messy and kids from all parts of society are going to be impacted. Which really isn't fair on any of them as they are just kids | |
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| VAT on Private School on 22:38 - Jun 13 with 2842 views | jonbull88 |
| VAT on Private School on 21:02 - Jun 13 by redrickstuhaart |
Its a lot of money but the number of people who can afford school fees, but not afford the vat is going to be very small.
I cant afford private school. Its too expensive. The fees are generally just the start of it. Its a luxury. There is no reason for society to subsidise it for the benefit of very wealthy people. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 21:03]
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As a parent of children fortunate enough to attend a private school, having to pay another 1/5 will be an almighty stretch. However my boys are in classes of 13 and 14 respectively. At the local state they would be in a class size of 30. My eldest requires extra help which he receives thanks in part to the small class sizes.
I fully accept the registered charity uproar, however for me starmer would more likely get my vote if he had said we will charge vat to private schools, but we will cap state school classes at 20-25 and use the extra income to build/replace hundreds of schools. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 22:57 - Jun 13 with 2794 views | dickie |
| VAT on Private School on 22:34 - Jun 13 by mutters |
From what friends have said their schools have already pushed up their fees in anticipation of Labour getting in. One has gone from £5k to £7k per term in the space of 3 years they have actively informed the parents that labour potentially VAT change is one of the core reasons why it's being put up in advance. Cost of living must also have something to do with that as well.
Good point on the grammar schools. The competition is going to be horrendous even more so now, though there is an argument that at least it's selective so if a child is brighter enough they will get in. However what will happen is that lots of this spare income will now be spent on tuition to aid the kids to get the dwindling Grammer school places.
I just have a feeling it's going to get messy and kids from all parts of society are going to be impacted. Which really isn't fair on any of them as they are just kids |
I work in a grammar school. Every child I teach had a tutor to get through the 11+ when they were in primary school. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 23:04 - Jun 13 with 2785 views | redrickstuhaart |
| VAT on Private School on 22:38 - Jun 13 by jonbull88 |
As a parent of children fortunate enough to attend a private school, having to pay another 1/5 will be an almighty stretch. However my boys are in classes of 13 and 14 respectively. At the local state they would be in a class size of 30. My eldest requires extra help which he receives thanks in part to the small class sizes.
I fully accept the registered charity uproar, however for me starmer would more likely get my vote if he had said we will charge vat to private schools, but we will cap state school classes at 20-25 and use the extra income to build/replace hundreds of schools. |
So you will agree to increase what you contribute in return for a magic money tree?
Its a luxury. They ARE saying that the extra will be used ti improve schools. | | | |
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