| How is repeatedly whipping a horse 07:08 - Jul 24 with 27769 views | bluelagos |
An error of judgement? Has also been said to be out of character.
ITV showing the video and it's clear her actions were not a one off, rather a method of training that were the norm for decorated Olympian Charlotte Dujardin.
[Post edited 24 Jul 2024 7:14]
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 14:54 - Jul 24 with 3044 views | BloomBlue |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 10:15 - Jul 24 by Basuco |
A jockey's whip no longer produces pain to a horse, it is the movement and noise the horse responds to, the old school whip with the leather bit on the end was a totally different matter. |
But a whip is designed to force a horse to do something it doesn't want to do, for example a racing horse to run faster, jump higher. The use of the whip can cause fear, anxiety and stress in a horse. The whip is cruel and should be banned .
If a racing horse is neck and neck with another horse to win a race and it naturally decides its had enough let it slow down, don't whip it to continue running faster. |  | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 15:09 - Jul 24 with 3026 views | eireblue |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 14:52 - Jul 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
People need to eat to survive, no-one needs to watch dressage.
I appreciate you don't need to eat meat, necessarily, but need is at the very basic level of why you eat anything. Humans have been eating meat for thousands of years, due to need. Whilst it's obviously a lot easier now to be meat free, it still takes a fair amount of effort to get all the nutrients you need by other means, and so it will take time to ween humans off meat.
None of this is the same as watching a pony walk funny. There is zero benefit, there, to humans. So yes, that is obviously more cruel because it's totally unnecessary and is ONLY pleasure. |
As a mammal, what would you prefer?
To be a horse or a pig. The latter case, the pertinent points being, you and the mammals you grew up with and formed a bond with will be stuffed into a transport, you will see the other animals killed, you will be terrified and be lead to your death, and you will still be in your youth.
Or reluctantly do some dancing get whipped a bit and then serve out your retirement in a field with other horses, possible hot ones that you get to have sex with.
By the way, anyone doubting that animals feel terror and get scared, should consider science stuff like evolution, fight/flight/freeze reactions, and the level of stress hormones, like adrenaline, that can be found in bodies after death.
The real difference when it comes to things like fear, is you can write a poem about it, a pig can’t, apart from that….. |  | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 15:19 - Jul 24 with 3008 views | eireblue |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 09:34 - Jul 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
As in not deliberately made to suffer at the hands of a whip. I'm not suggesting they have a perfect life, but if you eat free range then they're not being punished on a regular basis like this 'training' of a horse appears to be.
And killing animals for food, whether you think it's right or wrong at least has a legitimate reason behind it. Dressage (and indeed horse racing) are just folly that we don't have any need for. |
I also wanted to tackle the free range thing:
Your farmed animal that is even free range, will typically still be having most of its food from feed.
That feed is usually a combination of things including grains, pulses and beans.
To deliver protein to a human, it is more efficient in terms of land and water to eat beans etc directly, not have an animal eat and store the protein for you.
All that extra land and water that is used to feed your animals, is land that is taken away from the environment and placing that land into the factory farming industry.
So environments that contain animals, are increasingly being destroyed to create animal feed.
These animals don’t get re-homed.
And of course, that has an impact on climate change, which impacts the human mammal. | | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 15:31 - Jul 24 with 2968 views | noggin |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 10:15 - Jul 24 by Basuco |
A jockey's whip no longer produces pain to a horse, it is the movement and noise the horse responds to, the old school whip with the leather bit on the end was a totally different matter. |
Irrelevant really, the horse was clearly distressed by it. |  |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 15:52 - Jul 24 with 2956 views | vinceg |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 08:35 - Jul 24 by BloomBlue |
Whipping of a horse should never be allowed, same in horse racing. The whip should be totally ban, no horse would go round finding something to whip itself with in the wild.
Now this was many, many years ago I will admit, so it's possible things have changed, but I lived in Newmarket for a few months and I often saw jockeys constantly whipping horses when out on the gallops training the horses. |
Can't vouch for what goes on in training, but in horse races the new lighter ProCush whips that became mandatory in 2020 don't cause the horse pain. It's incorrect to say the horse only reacts to the swishing noise of the whip, they also respond to being struck, but as it is a lot lighter it's kind of equivalent to someone giving you a poke as if to say "oi, keep your mind on the job" rather than thrashing them to try to make them run faster. The ProCush is also regarded as a safety thing - the horse instinctively moves away from the thing that's poking it, as do I generally unless I've paid for it, so if rapid evasive action is needed during a race, use of both reins and ProCush can steer the horse effectively away from the trouble. This is why in "hands and heels" races for amateur jockeys where the use of the whip is not permitted, they still carry a ProCush for help with any such emergency manoeuvres.
Heavy fines and bans are now (at last) in place in horseracing to discourage excessive use of the whip. When these sanctions were first brought in a couple of years ago there was a whole raft of jockeys getting banned, but this has died down a lot now - a flat jockey earns about £80 racing fee per race plus a variable but often single figure percentage of any prizemoney, and they are now only allowed to ride at one meeting per day, so they have clearly realised they cant afford to be banned for a month and not earning.
Horseracing will always have its knockers, but it has cleaned up its act a lot in recent years, but Dujardin is a disgrace. |  | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:06 - Jul 24 with 2893 views | MattinLondon |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 07:48 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
And yet some people are happy to have animals slaughtered and eat their dead flesh when there are plenty of plant based alternatives.
What is more cruel? |
Are you vegan? |  | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:11 - Jul 24 with 2902 views | Buhrer |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 10:15 - Jul 24 by Basuco |
A jockey's whip no longer produces pain to a horse, it is the movement and noise the horse responds to, the old school whip with the leather bit on the end was a totally different matter. |
At a local stable yard the effective advice I've heard when that doesnt work is "don't just show them it, use it" and plenty of "give him a good kick" etc is taught to the children riding. All sound advice for getting through life so I haven't glued myself to a stable door just yet. |  | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:12 - Jul 24 with 2898 views | Buhrer |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 13:03 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
"So we saw front when the pigs were stunned by electric tongs and then their throats cut from which they then went through a bleeding chamber. From there they were dissected and processed". The some mug paid ninety quid for them to be squeezed into a a couple of sausages and served up with a side of mash. [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 13:11]
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Another Roy Keane pre-season training story? | | | |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:12 - Jul 24 with 2898 views | Clapham_Junction |
On a related note, I saw they will be dropping the horse riding element from the modern pentathlon after these Olympics. This seems like a positive development, particularly after the farce at the last Olympics when unruly horses killed off the chances of several athletes. |  | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:14 - Jul 24 with 2883 views | Buhrer |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 15:09 - Jul 24 by eireblue |
As a mammal, what would you prefer?
To be a horse or a pig. The latter case, the pertinent points being, you and the mammals you grew up with and formed a bond with will be stuffed into a transport, you will see the other animals killed, you will be terrified and be lead to your death, and you will still be in your youth.
Or reluctantly do some dancing get whipped a bit and then serve out your retirement in a field with other horses, possible hot ones that you get to have sex with.
By the way, anyone doubting that animals feel terror and get scared, should consider science stuff like evolution, fight/flight/freeze reactions, and the level of stress hormones, like adrenaline, that can be found in bodies after death.
The real difference when it comes to things like fear, is you can write a poem about it, a pig can’t, apart from that….. |
Pigs got a better chance of escape and evading capture, but as a horse I could kick to death several of my captors and then go down in a hail of vetinary bullets. Tough choice. | | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:28 - Jul 24 with 2834 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 15:09 - Jul 24 by eireblue |
As a mammal, what would you prefer?
To be a horse or a pig. The latter case, the pertinent points being, you and the mammals you grew up with and formed a bond with will be stuffed into a transport, you will see the other animals killed, you will be terrified and be lead to your death, and you will still be in your youth.
Or reluctantly do some dancing get whipped a bit and then serve out your retirement in a field with other horses, possible hot ones that you get to have sex with.
By the way, anyone doubting that animals feel terror and get scared, should consider science stuff like evolution, fight/flight/freeze reactions, and the level of stress hormones, like adrenaline, that can be found in bodies after death.
The real difference when it comes to things like fear, is you can write a poem about it, a pig can’t, apart from that….. |
Impossible to know as I have no experience of being either. But you've exaggerated both sides to make a point. I could easily say a free range cow or sheep spends most of its days wandering around a field with its friends, eating mostly, and when the time comes has no idea it's going to its death. Whereas the trauma the horse has received in this story, which could be over many years, you've reduced to "get whipped a bit". |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:34 - Jul 24 with 2821 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 13:03 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
"So we saw front when the pigs were stunned by electric tongs and then their throats cut from which they then went through a bleeding chamber. From there they were dissected and processed". The some mug paid ninety quid for them to be squeezed into a a couple of sausages and served up with a side of mash. [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 13:11]
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Has me on ignore but still happy to give me abuse from behind that veil of safety.
And the sanctimonious tvvat has only been veggie 5 minutes. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:35 - Jul 24 with 2811 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 13:15 - Jul 24 by blueasfook |
I am a carnivore but your argument is nonsense and simply to make you feel better about chomping on bacon. There is very little that's humane about the mass meat industry. |
Where have I said anything about "the mass meat industry"? You just added that in in order to have a pop at me. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:36 - Jul 24 with 2720 views | GlasgowBlue |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:06 - Jul 24 by MattinLondon |
Are you vegan? |
Vegetarian with a mostly vegan diet. Being a vegan isn't just about what you eat. A vegan lifestyle encompases clothing, footwear etc. That is a challenge I'm yet to embark on. Stopping eating meat is a small step as I said in an earlier post on this thread.
Why do you ask? [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 17:36]
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:42 - Jul 24 with 2697 views | BlueBadger |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 10:15 - Jul 24 by Basuco |
A jockey's whip no longer produces pain to a horse, it is the movement and noise the horse responds to, the old school whip with the leather bit on the end was a totally different matter. |
Sounds legit. |  |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:45 - Jul 24 with 2701 views | eireblue |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:28 - Jul 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Impossible to know as I have no experience of being either. But you've exaggerated both sides to make a point. I could easily say a free range cow or sheep spends most of its days wandering around a field with its friends, eating mostly, and when the time comes has no idea it's going to its death. Whereas the trauma the horse has received in this story, which could be over many years, you've reduced to "get whipped a bit". |
They do know they are going to their death.
Cows, are repeatedly impregnated, and have their calves taken away from them. You can observe cows braying and exhibiting signs of distress, when this happens. You can also measure stress hormones.
The same stress hormones, that you have. Both you and a cow have evolved from a common ancestor, and have similar brain chemistry.
You don’t have to have experience of being either, you just have to understand the science of evolution, and how you, the horse, the cow, and other mammals will have very similar stress/fear/pain reactions, that will include feeling loss, when something like a friend or child is taken way from you.
I think you missed the point I was using exaggeration for.
Your argument previously was from the point of view of the human in the situation.
E.g. is the human getting a benefit that is justifiable from a human point of view, from the thing that is done to an animal.
I would suggest the point of view you should consider is that of your fellow mammal.
Which would you choose the horse or the pig? | | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:47 - Jul 24 with 2698 views | blueasfook |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 16:35 - Jul 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Where have I said anything about "the mass meat industry"? You just added that in in order to have a pop at me. |
Oh apologies. You must have been talking about the nice meat industry where the animals are still killed in their prime but theyre delighted about it. Sorry. |  |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 18:08 - Jul 24 with 2662 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:47 - Jul 24 by blueasfook |
Oh apologies. You must have been talking about the nice meat industry where the animals are still killed in their prime but theyre delighted about it. Sorry. |
If the person who sent the video in was as worried about horse welfare as this board, they wouldn't have waited until a week before the Olympics.
Awful way to treat a horse, but how many more horses have been treated like this whist the whistleblower 'bided their time'
More to the whole story here I think. |  |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 18:36 - Jul 24 with 2606 views | MattinLondon |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:36 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Vegetarian with a mostly vegan diet. Being a vegan isn't just about what you eat. A vegan lifestyle encompases clothing, footwear etc. That is a challenge I'm yet to embark on. Stopping eating meat is a small step as I said in an earlier post on this thread.
Why do you ask? [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 17:36]
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Because your reply suggested that you were - was just interested. | | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:02 - Jul 24 with 2502 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:45 - Jul 24 by eireblue |
They do know they are going to their death.
Cows, are repeatedly impregnated, and have their calves taken away from them. You can observe cows braying and exhibiting signs of distress, when this happens. You can also measure stress hormones.
The same stress hormones, that you have. Both you and a cow have evolved from a common ancestor, and have similar brain chemistry.
You don’t have to have experience of being either, you just have to understand the science of evolution, and how you, the horse, the cow, and other mammals will have very similar stress/fear/pain reactions, that will include feeling loss, when something like a friend or child is taken way from you.
I think you missed the point I was using exaggeration for.
Your argument previously was from the point of view of the human in the situation.
E.g. is the human getting a benefit that is justifiable from a human point of view, from the thing that is done to an animal.
I would suggest the point of view you should consider is that of your fellow mammal.
Which would you choose the horse or the pig? |
"They do know they are going to their death."
Extraordinary claim that, do you have any evidence? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:04 - Jul 24 with 2492 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 17:47 - Jul 24 by blueasfook |
Oh apologies. You must have been talking about the nice meat industry where the animals are still killed in their prime but theyre delighted about it. Sorry. |
I'm amazed you've never heard of free range, farm raised meat, but then it's you, so maybe I'm not. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:05 - Jul 24 with 2481 views | Buhrer |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:02 - Jul 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"They do know they are going to their death."
Extraordinary claim that, do you have any evidence? |
What level of sentience would you say a pig has? | | | |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:09 - Jul 24 with 2458 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:05 - Jul 24 by Buhrer |
What level of sentience would you say a pig has? |
Odd question, I'm not really sure how to answer. Yes, I know they're intelligent. I'd be amazed if they know they're going to their death though and would like some scientific proof. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:14 - Jul 24 with 2429 views | Buhrer |
| How is repeatedly whipping a horse on 21:09 - Jul 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Odd question, I'm not really sure how to answer. Yes, I know they're intelligent. I'd be amazed if they know they're going to their death though and would like some scientific proof. |
It's an entirely relevant question as to whether an animal knows its going to its death..
Consider a dog. Or a toddler aged child. Well looked after. "Loved". Then one day they're professionally packed up to the abbatoir. At some point it gets nasty.
What level of sentience do you think a pig has? What more evidence do you need than your own eyes and mind. | | | |
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