| Poorer pensioners? 17:10 - Jul 29 with 12467 views | DJR |
From the Guardian.
"Reeves says pensioners not in receipt of pension credit will no longer get the winter fuel payment.
That means it will only go to poorer pensioners."
I can understand the simplicity of tying it to pension credit, but there are a lot of pensioners just above the pension credit limit who are poor and rely on the winter fuel payment to heat their homes.
My parents--in-law are a case in point. They are just above the pension credit limit so miss out on a whole range of benefits etc which make pensioners on pension credit much better off than them. And they will be even more so if my parents-in-law lose the two winter fuel payments they get.
And because they don't have enough money to survive more generally, especially when unexpected bills come along, they rely heavily on us to help them get by. A stair lift, no cheap option, is just one example. [Post edited 29 Jul 2024 17:13]
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| Poorer pensioners? on 15:22 - Jul 30 with 1587 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Poorer pensioners? on 15:11 - Jul 30 by blueasfook |
What is it about the Labour Party you like? Is it the cancelling of road projects and hospital building? Is it giving a 22% rise to junior doctors already on a average salary of £37k? Is it taking money from pensioners barely above the poverty line? |
Not sure I understand your question but I do like the fact that they intend to increase wages for those in public service by whatever the pay review board recommends.
Rather that ignoring them on the grounds we can’t afford it. |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 15:29 - Jul 30 with 1562 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 09:09 - Jul 30 by Europablue |
Not from a moral view, but from a functional view older pensioners are a low priority for Labour because they tend not to vote as reliably for Labour, they tend to be more vulnerable and thus have less political pull, and they are much more likely to die or not be sound of mind the next time an election comes around. Sadly there are a lot of old pensioners who are much worse of than any of your relatives because they don't have anyone looking out for them and trying to support them. Our society has crumbled due to selfishness that is endemic across the political spectrum be it Reganite economics or identity politics. We used to have an ingrained sense of responsibility towards our children and our parents and grandparents. Now the families of the people who don't feel responsible to look after them are a burden on the public finances. It's a sad fact that in politics the squeaky wheel gets the grease. This is a non-partisan issue, and whoever is in government should have their feet held to the fire. You judge a society on how it treats the most vulnerable. |
I'm pretty sure they're not thinking "Let's hit pensioners because they tend not to vote for us, they have less political pull and more likely to die or not be sound of mind." I think the thinking behind this is more "The money's not there."
Nobody actually wants to make life harder for pensioners. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 15:42 - Jul 30 with 1549 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Poorer pensioners? on 12:59 - Jul 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Oops!
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She said that SEVEN years ago. The Tories have been ruining the economy for the entirety of those seven years. And not just incompetently, corruptly and fraudulently for a lot of it. We've also had the impact of Brexit.
Blaming Labour now is like blaming firemen for fires. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 15:48 - Jul 30 with 1534 views | Radlett_blue |
You could argue that scrapping the anomaly of a "winter fuel allowance" & putting the money into a general state pension increase would make more sense, partly by cutting out some bureaucracy but also that some of this would be clawed back from higher earners in the form of income tax. Still giving the winter fuel allowance to those who live abroad (e.g. in Tenerife) is beyond absurd. [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 16:03]
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 16:01 - Jul 30 with 1496 views | DJR |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 13:57 - Jul 30 by Buhrer |
I'm working. I have a lot of relevant work experience.I'm not talking about not supporting the vulnerable. I'm not talking about the state pension. The question really is Why should I pay djrs homeowning relatives electric bill? Why should generation rent protect their equity. Is this leverage that will force sales? I hope so.
Conveniently forgot the vote 8 years ago? Look around you. Who can forget. There's no humour yetl, but you can bang your pans for me every Thursday this winter lol. |
My parents--in-law worked all their lives and, as I mentioned above, they will have little or no equity in their house when the last of them dies because they had to take out equity release to get by because their state pension is so meagre. They also have minimal savings which I top up from time to time.
If the state can't help people like them with their electricity bills, what sort of society have we become? [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 16:03]
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| Poorer pensioners? on 16:05 - Jul 30 with 1481 views | DJR |
| Poorer pensioners? on 15:48 - Jul 30 by Radlett_blue |
You could argue that scrapping the anomaly of a "winter fuel allowance" & putting the money into a general state pension increase would make more sense, partly by cutting out some bureaucracy but also that some of this would be clawed back from higher earners in the form of income tax. Still giving the winter fuel allowance to those who live abroad (e.g. in Tenerife) is beyond absurd. [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 16:03]
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The advantage of the winter fuel allowance is that it is tax free. Adding it to the state pension may tip some pensioners into the basic tax bracket, which itself could add to complexity.
EDIT: People in Spain won't qualify, according to this from Gov.uk
If you do not live in the UK, you’re only eligible for the Winter Fuel Payment if:
you moved to an eligible country before 1 January 2021
you were born before 25 September 1957
you have a genuine and sufficient link to the UK - this can include having lived or worked in the UK, and having family in the UK
Eligible countries
Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
Germany
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Sweden
Switzerland [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 16:17]
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 16:10 - Jul 30 with 1461 views | Buhrer |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 16:01 - Jul 30 by DJR |
My parents--in-law worked all their lives and, as I mentioned above, they will have little or no equity in their house when the last of them dies because they had to take out equity release to get by because their state pension is so meagre. They also have minimal savings which I top up from time to time.
If the state can't help people like them with their electricity bills, what sort of society have we become? [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 16:03]
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A skint one, but where the truly vulnerable are supported.
Not paying for people that don't need it and give others money to charidee, is going to warm me twice this xmas. |  | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 16:11 - Jul 30 with 1461 views | Hiphopopotamus |
| Poorer pensioners? on 12:59 - Jul 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Oops!
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Thank goodness you didn’t vote for this horrible government!!!! |  | | |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 16:41 - Jul 30 with 1389 views | itfcjoe |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 16:01 - Jul 30 by DJR |
My parents--in-law worked all their lives and, as I mentioned above, they will have little or no equity in their house when the last of them dies because they had to take out equity release to get by because their state pension is so meagre. They also have minimal savings which I top up from time to time.
If the state can't help people like them with their electricity bills, what sort of society have we become? [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 16:03]
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State pension for a married couple is basically £2k a month I though, surely with no mortgage that's not a meagre amount of money?
I imagine plenty of working couples don't have that much spare after rent/mortgage payment is taken |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:10 - Jul 30 with 1332 views | DJR |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 16:41 - Jul 30 by itfcjoe |
State pension for a married couple is basically £2k a month I though, surely with no mortgage that's not a meagre amount of money?
I imagine plenty of working couples don't have that much spare after rent/mortgage payment is taken |
I think you must be talking about the new state pension (for those retiring after 2016) which I believe is paid separately to each member of a couple and amounts to about £950 per month per person, and so around the monthly figure you suggest.
My understanding is the old state pension is much less generous than that unless SERPs kicks in.
As regards pension credit, the limit for a couple is currently roughly £1442 a month, not a princely sum to live on when as well as food and heating, there may be things like car repairs, a replacement fridge, repairs to a house, a stair lift.
My parents-in-law have slightly more than that amount (and don't get all the extra benefits which come with pension credit) but this is much less than the minimum wage of around £2000 a month. [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 17:22]
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:20 - Jul 30 with 1310 views | longtimefan |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 16:41 - Jul 30 by itfcjoe |
State pension for a married couple is basically £2k a month I though, surely with no mortgage that's not a meagre amount of money?
I imagine plenty of working couples don't have that much spare after rent/mortgage payment is taken |
The old State Pension is only £8814 with a full contribution record. Many women pensioners, especially the older ones, will have far from a full record. |  | | |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:33 - Jul 30 with 1249 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:20 - Jul 30 by longtimefan |
The old State Pension is only £8814 with a full contribution record. Many women pensioners, especially the older ones, will have far from a full record. |
Mine works out just short of £9,500 pa. They add a little on for SERPS, then take some off for any years you were contracted out. the new pension works out quite a bit more than the old. Not sure why they didn't pay the new rate to everyone. | |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:38 - Jul 30 with 1225 views | Mullet |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:20 - Jul 30 by longtimefan |
The old State Pension is only £8814 with a full contribution record. Many women pensioners, especially the older ones, will have far from a full record. |
Is there a pressure for pensioners to sell up assets then? My grandparents lived in council houses, then a flat when it was just my grandad.
Or moved out of the bigger family home for a bungalow until the care home was needed.
Is it better for everyone if old people downsize, free up properties for families and use that equity to support themselves? I’ve no idea if the housing market plays a significant role here or not on a large scale. |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:42 - Jul 30 with 1206 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:38 - Jul 30 by Mullet |
Is there a pressure for pensioners to sell up assets then? My grandparents lived in council houses, then a flat when it was just my grandad.
Or moved out of the bigger family home for a bungalow until the care home was needed.
Is it better for everyone if old people downsize, free up properties for families and use that equity to support themselves? I’ve no idea if the housing market plays a significant role here or not on a large scale. |
25% of pensioners are either still paying a mortgage or live in rented property. | |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:45 - Jul 30 with 1198 views | Mullet |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:42 - Jul 30 by Pinewoodblue |
25% of pensioners are either still paying a mortgage or live in rented property. |
So 75% need less help? Or are being punished for living within their means?
Seems hard to me to make a moral judgement that suits everyone beyond simply means testing everything.
It’s done with disability payments and benefits, and can be incredibly traumatic and bureaucratic too. I’m wondering where we draw the line beyond simply saying the cut off point is X for lots of these things. | |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:50 - Jul 30 with 1180 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:38 - Jul 30 by Mullet |
Is there a pressure for pensioners to sell up assets then? My grandparents lived in council houses, then a flat when it was just my grandad.
Or moved out of the bigger family home for a bungalow until the care home was needed.
Is it better for everyone if old people downsize, free up properties for families and use that equity to support themselves? I’ve no idea if the housing market plays a significant role here or not on a large scale. |
Something like the bedroom tax? |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:50 - Jul 30 with 1179 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:45 - Jul 30 by Mullet |
So 75% need less help? Or are being punished for living within their means?
Seems hard to me to make a moral judgement that suits everyone beyond simply means testing everything.
It’s done with disability payments and benefits, and can be incredibly traumatic and bureaucratic too. I’m wondering where we draw the line beyond simply saying the cut off point is X for lots of these things. |
Some other benefits are universal / not means tested. For example attendance allowance. | |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 18:08 - Jul 30 with 1145 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 18:06 - Jul 30 by Pinewoodblue |
Ship pensioners out to Rwanda. |
Get our money’s worth after all. Good idea. Loads like to retire overseas, so it’d be a win-win  |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 18:10 - Jul 30 with 1142 views | Mullet |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:50 - Jul 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Something like the bedroom tax? |
Possibly but I’d look at landlords first I think. There seems to be years of wealth accumulation which goes unchecked. If the last government were incapable or unwilling to collect tax from those who owed millions, there’s presumably a hierarchy of issues which need addressing to assess what is a reasonable award, and for whom. | |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 18:35 - Jul 30 with 1083 views | DJR |
The issue I have with what Labour has done is that it affects pensioners who are not well off as well as pensioners who are well off.
This just doesn't seem to me the sort of thing a Labour government should be doing.
But if pensioners are to be targeted (and after all they don't pay NI), a fair solution to me would be to have, say, a 2% rate of NI kicking in at, say, £4189 a month, just as the 2% rate kicks in on earnings, with pensioners earning less than that not paying NI at all.
This would bring wealthier pensioners more into line with their employed counterparts. [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 18:39]
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| Poorer pensioners? on 18:41 - Jul 30 with 1044 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Poorer pensioners? on 18:35 - Jul 30 by DJR |
The issue I have with what Labour has done is that it affects pensioners who are not well off as well as pensioners who are well off.
This just doesn't seem to me the sort of thing a Labour government should be doing.
But if pensioners are to be targeted (and after all they don't pay NI), a fair solution to me would be to have, say, a 2% rate of NI kicking in at, say, £4189 a month, just as the 2% rate kicks in on earnings, with pensioners earning less than that not paying NI at all.
This would bring wealthier pensioners more into line with their employed counterparts. [Post edited 30 Jul 2024 18:39]
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£4189 a month each? Just over £100,000 a year for a couple. Wealthy pensioners! | |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 18:50 - Jul 30 with 1030 views | OldFart71 |
It always amazes me how Governments prattle on about saving for your old age and then do everything they can to prevent pensioners being self sufficient. Take a previous Labour Government under the leadership of good old Gordon Brown. He decided in his infinite wisdom to tax share dividends. These were dividends that many Company's relied upon to finance Final Salary Pensions. It was once said we had pensions the envy of the World. Despite the fact that it only gave the Government a few million quid it wiped out final salary pensions. The Tories a few years ago tried to resurrect Company pensions, but it was a half hearted effort where Company's could offer poor schemes that didn't benefit the employee and the employee could opt out of the scheme. I know for a fact that this cutting of the fuel allowance will hit an elderly neighbour who because of the pathetically low personal allowance pays a bit of tax on her pension as she get's a bit on top of the State Pension. A person on the minimum wage at £11.44 doing a 38 hour week will take home around £6,000 more after tax and N.I. than a pensioner. That can't be right, can it. I also know of people on benefits who smoke, drink and gamble. Not saying everyone on benefits is rolling in it, but some are. | | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 19:37 - Jul 30 with 973 views | Churchman |
| Poorer pensioners? on 18:41 - Jul 30 by Pinewoodblue |
£4189 a month each? Just over £100,000 a year for a couple. Wealthy pensioners! |
The maximum new state pension you can claim with 35 years of full NI contributions is £10,600pa, £883pm.
The attached is just one summary that covers what constitutes a decent pension. There are many but this is pretty much an average view. The minimum for basic needs is roughly £14,400.
https://www.standardlife.co.uk/articles/article-page/how-much-do-i-need-to-retir |  | | |
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