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Tragically die in a boating related incident (and I appreciate a black man too) in Italy, which is terrible beyond words, genuinely shocking, and I do mean that, and there is wall to wall press coverage, which I kinda get. Last month, four migrants drowned trying to get across the English Channel in a single incident. And………..not quite the same level of press coverage, was there? Why is that? Guess they are worth less. It troubles me. Really troubles me. Maybe I’m too woke, so await the brickbats.
GhostOfEscobar
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Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 06:36 - Aug 22 with 1832 views
It’s troubling that it troubles you. Try and understand the difference between a clutch of millionaires on a super yacht upended by a waterspout whilst on holiday celebrating getting off what appeared a cut and dried fraud case a day after the co-defendant died whilst jogging.
I’d hazard a guess that some people got divorced yesterday - but the only one featured in the Times was Jennifer Lopez who’d got divorced three times before. That was newsworthy too for entirely different reasons.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 06:36 - Aug 22 by ElephantintheRoom
It’s troubling that it troubles you. Try and understand the difference between a clutch of millionaires on a super yacht upended by a waterspout whilst on holiday celebrating getting off what appeared a cut and dried fraud case a day after the co-defendant died whilst jogging.
I’d hazard a guess that some people got divorced yesterday - but the only one featured in the Times was Jennifer Lopez who’d got divorced three times before. That was newsworthy too for entirely different reasons.
Well yes and of course those people coming across in rubber boats are doing something illegally. So as sad as it is,they take the risk,they know the risk and to get to the land of milk and honey that’s a risk they take.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 23:07 - Aug 21 by Europablue
The best way to help illegal immigrants is to stop them getting into boats in the first place. It is a needless waste of human life really for no good reason. It isn't cheap to get a place on a boat to the UK. Migrants should either be deported or settled where they come in or distributed across Europe. Instead all countries in Europe allow migrants across their borders and tolerate their presence as long as the ultimate destination is somewhere else. I can't understand someone not wanting to stop the boats.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 23:07 - Aug 21 by Europablue
The best way to help illegal immigrants is to stop them getting into boats in the first place. It is a needless waste of human life really for no good reason. It isn't cheap to get a place on a boat to the UK. Migrants should either be deported or settled where they come in or distributed across Europe. Instead all countries in Europe allow migrants across their borders and tolerate their presence as long as the ultimate destination is somewhere else. I can't understand someone not wanting to stop the boats.
"I can't understand someone not wanting to stop the boats."
Who has said they don't want to stop the boats? The only argument is the reason for wanting to stop them. The right wing mob that rioted recently, want to stop brown people entering England. Others want to stop the tragic deaths of desperate people.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 21:26 - Aug 21 by Oldsmoker
On December 3 1984, more than 40 tons of methyl isocyanate gas leaked from a pesticide plant in Bhopal, India, immediately killing at least 3,800 people and causing significant morbidity and premature death for many thousands more.
How does that compare to the human disaster caused by the neglect of the Ethiopian government that resulted in the deaths of thousands - also in 1984.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 07:09 - Aug 22 by noggin
"I can't understand someone not wanting to stop the boats."
Who has said they don't want to stop the boats? The only argument is the reason for wanting to stop them. The right wing mob that rioted recently, want to stop brown people entering England. Others want to stop the tragic deaths of desperate people.
It’s got nothing to do with skin colour,we as a small Island can’t keep accepting the number of people coming in illegally. We are rammed and everything is starting to struggle big time.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 21:32 - Aug 21 by Nthsuffolkblue
Not an industrial disaster but I do get what you mean.
Bhopal was the answer I was looking for (although the Banqiao Dam failure is an equally valid suggestion). Few people suggest either with Chernobyl being the most common suggestion (albeit the ongoing effect of cancers due to extra radiation exposure is difficult to assess).
I’d have said Bhopal, but I’m a regular listener to the BBC World Service, the best and most objective news source going.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 07:30 - Aug 22 by Benters
It’s got nothing to do with skin colour,we as a small Island can’t keep accepting the number of people coming in illegally. We are rammed and everything is starting to struggle big time.
The numbers arriving by small boat is relatively tiny, as well you know. Stopping the boats won't make any difference to hospital waiting times or lack of social housing.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 07:30 - Aug 22 by Benters
It’s got nothing to do with skin colour,we as a small Island can’t keep accepting the number of people coming in illegally. We are rammed and everything is starting to struggle big time.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 07:09 - Aug 22 by noggin
"I can't understand someone not wanting to stop the boats."
Who has said they don't want to stop the boats? The only argument is the reason for wanting to stop them. The right wing mob that rioted recently, want to stop brown people entering England. Others want to stop the tragic deaths of desperate people.
On a certain level it doesn't matter what the reason other people have when they agree with you. It just goes to show what the political discourse in our country that we seek division where there is consensus. It's just not that simple that one side wants to stop needless deaths and one side is just racist. It is so much more nuanced than that. There is the needless risk and deaths that are caused by organized criminals preying on desperate/naïve people, but on the other side there are people maintaining the incentives of rewarding the successful crossers. As a country we have a right to decide who comes into our country and that can be on any criteria we decide on. People who take part in the legal immigration process are being penalized and must be very frustrated that illegal immigration is rewarded. Illegal immigration is a grave threat to the social contract. We are being asked (compelled) to pay taxes to pay for services that people have a right to if they are citizens/legal residents and contribute to the best of their ability. If you bring in a lot of people there will be a lot of pressure on infrastructure and services. If you bring a lot of unskilled people from the third world, at the very least they will need to be supported for a generation before there is a net gain for the public purse. You might not like an argument that values people based on their potential income and how much they contribute or take, but the reality is that services and infrastructure cost money and if they can't be funded, then they will deteriorate. If you can have targeted immigration you can bring in the people you need. It's probably morally better to just train up the people who are already here, because it may be great for us to have thousands of Indian doctors, but it's not so great for India and Indians back home. Illegal immigrants are also very vulnerable there is no choice but to make money illegally. There is a high incentive towards crime and the illegal immigrants who don't terrorize others will be vulnerable to being exploited. People like Kier Starmer who bang on about human rights don't care enough to stop illegal immigration and all the crime and suffering that goes with it.
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Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:31 - Aug 22 with 1512 views
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 07:19 - Aug 22 by noggin
Bit early to be drinking Stella, isn't it?
You have to be consistent with opposing racism. To have a fair society where we all respect each other, we need to be bound by the same rules. Understandably racism towards white people is not as touchy a subject because historically it's just been worse for non-white people. Why not take away the ammunition for white racist people by treating everyone the same?
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Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:35 - Aug 22 with 1486 views
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:25 - Aug 22 by Europablue
On a certain level it doesn't matter what the reason other people have when they agree with you. It just goes to show what the political discourse in our country that we seek division where there is consensus. It's just not that simple that one side wants to stop needless deaths and one side is just racist. It is so much more nuanced than that. There is the needless risk and deaths that are caused by organized criminals preying on desperate/naïve people, but on the other side there are people maintaining the incentives of rewarding the successful crossers. As a country we have a right to decide who comes into our country and that can be on any criteria we decide on. People who take part in the legal immigration process are being penalized and must be very frustrated that illegal immigration is rewarded. Illegal immigration is a grave threat to the social contract. We are being asked (compelled) to pay taxes to pay for services that people have a right to if they are citizens/legal residents and contribute to the best of their ability. If you bring in a lot of people there will be a lot of pressure on infrastructure and services. If you bring a lot of unskilled people from the third world, at the very least they will need to be supported for a generation before there is a net gain for the public purse. You might not like an argument that values people based on their potential income and how much they contribute or take, but the reality is that services and infrastructure cost money and if they can't be funded, then they will deteriorate. If you can have targeted immigration you can bring in the people you need. It's probably morally better to just train up the people who are already here, because it may be great for us to have thousands of Indian doctors, but it's not so great for India and Indians back home. Illegal immigrants are also very vulnerable there is no choice but to make money illegally. There is a high incentive towards crime and the illegal immigrants who don't terrorize others will be vulnerable to being exploited. People like Kier Starmer who bang on about human rights don't care enough to stop illegal immigration and all the crime and suffering that goes with it.
You keep mentioning "illegal migrants". What are the 'legal' routes for these people who decide to risk their lives by paying criminals for a place on a dinghy?
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:31 - Aug 22 by Europablue
You have to be consistent with opposing racism. To have a fair society where we all respect each other, we need to be bound by the same rules. Understandably racism towards white people is not as touchy a subject because historically it's just been worse for non-white people. Why not take away the ammunition for white racist people by treating everyone the same?
I agree that 15 yr old kids like Adnam, a Muslim who fled from Afghanistan* because his life was in danger (featured in Freddie Flintoff''s 'Field Of Dreams' currently on BBC1) should be treated the same as Ukrainian refugees have been.
*Edit for those who didn't see the show - he arrived illegally, very dangerously, on his own (ie without his parents or family), crossing several European borders by back-routes on foot without shoes (feet wrapped in strips of cloth), & then the Channel by small boat, because there were 0 legal routes for him.
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:31 - Aug 22 by Europablue
You have to be consistent with opposing racism. To have a fair society where we all respect each other, we need to be bound by the same rules. Understandably racism towards white people is not as touchy a subject because historically it's just been worse for non-white people. Why not take away the ammunition for white racist people by treating everyone the same?
Can you explain your last paragraph please in greater detail?
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Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:46 - Aug 22 with 1439 views
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 07:54 - Aug 22 by noggin
"It’s got nothing to do with skin colour."
You are not answering in good faith. There is a problem with services and infrastructure that would still be a problem if we only had white immigration from Australia and America. The problem of net immigration numbers has nothing to do with skin colour. If all immigration to the UK was non-white people and they integrated, there would be no problems as long as the net number of people coming isn't too high and the people have skills that are in demand. There are going to be a minority of people who are extreme racists and you can point to them if it make you feel good about yourself, but there are a lot of circumstantial racists who are almost always people with low or no income that feel threatened by immigration and see people of a different race coming in and being higher in the pecking order, then there will be privileged people (usually white people) who endorse discrimination against and demonization of poor whites. You are being really divisive and it doesn't build bridges. The most inspiring story to me is the black American guy who befriends KKK members and changes minds with grace and kindness.
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Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:51 - Aug 22 with 1396 views
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:46 - Aug 22 by Europablue
You are not answering in good faith. There is a problem with services and infrastructure that would still be a problem if we only had white immigration from Australia and America. The problem of net immigration numbers has nothing to do with skin colour. If all immigration to the UK was non-white people and they integrated, there would be no problems as long as the net number of people coming isn't too high and the people have skills that are in demand. There are going to be a minority of people who are extreme racists and you can point to them if it make you feel good about yourself, but there are a lot of circumstantial racists who are almost always people with low or no income that feel threatened by immigration and see people of a different race coming in and being higher in the pecking order, then there will be privileged people (usually white people) who endorse discrimination against and demonization of poor whites. You are being really divisive and it doesn't build bridges. The most inspiring story to me is the black American guy who befriends KKK members and changes minds with grace and kindness.
I've never heard anyone complain about immigration from rich, predominantly white countries though. You talk about integration, have you ever been to Benidorm?
What does the British government do to help integrate people?
Not a regular listener as not usually up at that time, but the same point was made on BBCR4's 'Thought for the Day' this morning. It was with that in mind that the hymn 'Eternal Father Strong to save .... For those in peril on the sea' was composed in 1860 by William Whiting, apparently.
I'm not going to do a comparison with coverage of people dying while crossing the Channel in a small boat but I have found the coverage a bit over the top, especially during the stage where it was 'search still ongoing, nothing significant found yet'.
The first ten minutes of the ten o'clock news on BBC the day before yesterday was this story. For the first couple of days the newsreaders weren't even pronouncing the name of the boat correctly.
They've wheeled out the armchair naval architects to speculate on whether there was something wrong with the boat. They have very little to go on and unless the wreck of the boat reveals something we probably won't know exactly what happened unless one of the survivors knows the cause. There will presumably be an enquiry into the incident and we'll have to wait and see what that reveals.
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Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 09:30 - Aug 22 with 1203 views
Going to stick my head above the parapet here, but some rich white people on 08:51 - Aug 22 by noggin
I've never heard anyone complain about immigration from rich, predominantly white countries though. You talk about integration, have you ever been to Benidorm?
What does the British government do to help integrate people?
[Post edited 22 Aug 2024 8:56]
Just to derail the thread slightly, back in the spring I visited an old friend who now has to live in Hungary (and is perhaps returning to the United States at the moment) because she was refused entry at Heathrow a few years back. She got to spend a night or two in the company of the more typical profile of migrant who does not get in and found it a very sobering experience. She could spend thousands of pounds on the various applications that might give her the right to remain but she sees that as quite a risk. So for for several years she has been swapping lodgings in Hungary and Romania (using the no cost three month visas) as she seeks European Union rights through an application for Hungarian citizenship on the grounds that she had a Hungarian grandfather. To be a single lady in her mid seventies living out of a couple of suitcases has been another sobering experience for her.
I got a chance to understand her predicament better in conversation with another American lady of similar vintage who was camping at FolkEast last weekend and who explained the difference between Medicare and Medicaid to me (in terms of the financial outlay and the services received.) There have been vocal complaints about white people coming to the United Kingdom from supposedly richer countries just to use our health service and not contribute to the public purse, because those complaints are based on earning power rather than pigmentation I see that as ageist rather than racist.
None of this is intended to deprive you of the right or reason to contribute to this thread by the way, you have done well so far in bringing issues forward in my opinion. My belief is that everyone should post as they think at the time and read what others say so as to form their own judgements in the light of how the discussion progresses; we all count for one, no more, no less (until Phil gets fed up with us...)
[edited in a few places to make sense of typos and omissions due to me still waking up, none of which changed the thrust of my argument...in my opinion...]
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