| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? 18:39 - Nov 29 with 2403 views | GavTWTD |
https://news.sky.com/story/zelenskyy-suggests-hes-prepared-to-end-ukraine-war-in
Zelenskyy suggests he's prepared to end Ukraine war in return for NATO membership, even if Russia doesn't immediately return seized land
The Ukrainian president told Sky News's chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay NATO membership would have to be offered to unoccupied parts of the country in order to end the "hot phase of the war", as long as the NATO invitation itself recognises Ukraine's internationally recognised borders. |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 20:14 - Nov 29 with 1780 views | WeWereZombies |
I've had a squint on the BBC, Al Jazeera and euro news, can't find anything reporting this; which surprises me. Not that I can see Putin agreeing to this proposal, or how it could work without a conclusive peace agreement.And the speed of Ukraine acceding to NATO would disturb some members, surely ? |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 20:14 - Nov 29 with 1780 views | J2BLUE |
Putin will never go for that.
I wonder if this is desperation before Trump gets in and basically abandons them. |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:26 - Nov 30 with 1484 views | WeWereZombies |
Article on the BBC website now:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn8g8ylvyldo
'President Volodymyr Zelensky has suggested that the parts of Ukraine under his control should be taken "under the Nato umbrella" to try and stop the "hot phase" of the war...Zelensky said he would, but only if Nato membership was offered to the whole of Ukraine, within its internationally recognised borders, first.
Ukraine could then attempt to negotiate the return of territory currently under Russian control "in a diplomatic way", he said.
But the suggestion is highly theoretical. As Zelensky pointed out, no-one has yet made such an offer.
Whether Nato would ever consider such a move is highly doubtful.' | |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:43 - Nov 30 with 1444 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 20:14 - Nov 29 by J2BLUE |
Putin will never go for that.
I wonder if this is desperation before Trump gets in and basically abandons them. |
If Ukraine were fast-tracked into NATO, it would be irrelevant what Putin thought, wouldn’t it? But it would put NATO on a path to direct action with Russia then if Russia didn’t stop hostilities. So presumably unlikely to happen.
Could be pre-Trump desperation too of course. Who knows where Trump’s involved. I would have said the return of Ukrainian land is mandatory, but then if Ukraine want to give up territory that’s up to them. Although not a fan of violence, it’d be nice if Putin got a thorough kicking. Coming out of this with more territory doesn’t sit well with me. |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:46 - Nov 30 with 1443 views | BloomBlue |
While that sounds like a good approach the problem will come when Trump eventually walks away from NATO. NATO without the US is nothing. |  | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 10:49 - Nov 30 with 1322 views | Churchman |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:43 - Nov 30 by Swansea_Blue |
If Ukraine were fast-tracked into NATO, it would be irrelevant what Putin thought, wouldn’t it? But it would put NATO on a path to direct action with Russia then if Russia didn’t stop hostilities. So presumably unlikely to happen.
Could be pre-Trump desperation too of course. Who knows where Trump’s involved. I would have said the return of Ukrainian land is mandatory, but then if Ukraine want to give up territory that’s up to them. Although not a fan of violence, it’d be nice if Putin got a thorough kicking. Coming out of this with more territory doesn’t sit well with me. |
More territory = victory for Russia. The territory they are stealing is key to the Ukrainian economy.
It mirrors the disgrace of 1938 when Sudetenland was handed to Hitler thus removing Czech defences overnight. The Czech leader wasn’t even allowed in the room as his country was sold out. The rest of the country was swallowed within a year without a whimper of protest from anyone.
Dictators never stop. Ever. The price of appeasement of the Nazis was WW2 and 55 million lives. I wonder what the price will be this time?
Zelenski is desperate. The Russians are crushing Ukraine and he knows the orange one will sell him out to his Moscow friend as sure as night follows day. [Post edited 30 Nov 10:51]
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 10:55 - Nov 30 with 1301 views | StokieBlue |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:46 - Nov 30 by BloomBlue |
While that sounds like a good approach the problem will come when Trump eventually walks away from NATO. NATO without the US is nothing. |
It's certainly weakened but given what we have seen from Russia over the last two years the European side of NATO is still more than capable against those forces.
Might even get the EU countries to sort themselves out and take defence seriously.
SB |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 11:00 - Nov 30 with 1297 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:46 - Nov 30 by BloomBlue |
While that sounds like a good approach the problem will come when Trump eventually walks away from NATO. NATO without the US is nothing. |
NATO without the USA contains two nuclear powers, the nations responsible for the Euro fighter, Rheinmetall, BAE, Dassault, Saab, the Czech ammunition production capacity, the Turkish military-industrial complex, and a combined population well in excess of Russia's.
Not nothing. A long way from nothing.
Ukraine on its own has bogged down the Russian Army, wiped out the Black Sea fleet as a fighting force, and, until the development of glide bombs, mostly nullified the Russian Air Force as a threat.
What Western Europe doesn't have are battle hardened troops. Russia does, but their meat grinder tactics mean that they don't take advantage of that fact. |  | | |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 11:41 - Nov 30 with 1240 views | Churchman |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 11:00 - Nov 30 by ArnoldMoorhen |
NATO without the USA contains two nuclear powers, the nations responsible for the Euro fighter, Rheinmetall, BAE, Dassault, Saab, the Czech ammunition production capacity, the Turkish military-industrial complex, and a combined population well in excess of Russia's.
Not nothing. A long way from nothing.
Ukraine on its own has bogged down the Russian Army, wiped out the Black Sea fleet as a fighting force, and, until the development of glide bombs, mostly nullified the Russian Air Force as a threat.
What Western Europe doesn't have are battle hardened troops. Russia does, but their meat grinder tactics mean that they don't take advantage of that fact. |
Some stats
https://www.statista.com/statistics/584286/number-of-military-personnel-in-nato-
Without the US and any serious political will, I’d suggested NATO is stone dead. By political will take for example U.K.- defence cuts this year and more to come. Not serious, not interested. Let’s have a review next year. Sending just the message Putin wants to hear. Bet he’s laughing his head off as he mangles his caviar on toast.
Does anyone seriously think people from Turkey, Greece or anywhere else come to that are going to rush to the aid of Poland, Finland and the Baltics without the US behind them?
What remains if NATO goes into the bin isn’t nothing, but it certainly isn’t anything for Putin to lose sleep over. Should Trump do what I think he might, the only question is who first. My money is on Poland. Everyone’s favourite meal throughout history. Russia has had 10 goes in 300 years and sees it as theirs. | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 11:53 - Nov 30 with 1208 views | J2BLUE |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:43 - Nov 30 by Swansea_Blue |
If Ukraine were fast-tracked into NATO, it would be irrelevant what Putin thought, wouldn’t it? But it would put NATO on a path to direct action with Russia then if Russia didn’t stop hostilities. So presumably unlikely to happen.
Could be pre-Trump desperation too of course. Who knows where Trump’s involved. I would have said the return of Ukrainian land is mandatory, but then if Ukraine want to give up territory that’s up to them. Although not a fan of violence, it’d be nice if Putin got a thorough kicking. Coming out of this with more territory doesn’t sit well with me. |
If Putin makes loud threats I don't think NATO would admit Ukraine. The West does not want war and will go to great lengths to avoid it (which is good). If Russia attack Poland tomorrow would every member of NATO answer the call?
Hungary? Germany? Turkey? I'm not convinced to be honest. | |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 11:56 - Nov 30 with 1200 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:46 - Nov 30 by BloomBlue |
While that sounds like a good approach the problem will come when Trump eventually walks away from NATO. NATO without the US is nothing. |
Trump would be shot before he was allowed to walk away from NATO. |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:09 - Nov 30 with 1176 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 11:56 - Nov 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Trump would be shot before he was allowed to walk away from NATO. |
This, far too much credence is given to what Trump says - the US has over $1trn of assets and investments in Europe. Not a chance the rest of the Republicans, or corporate donors put that at risk.
Let’s not forget Trump gave his unofficial approval in the end to the $60bn of military aid to Ukraine - he’s a populist and does whatever he thinks is politically expedient. | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:28 - Nov 30 with 1110 views | blueasfook |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 10:55 - Nov 30 by StokieBlue |
It's certainly weakened but given what we have seen from Russia over the last two years the European side of NATO is still more than capable against those forces.
Might even get the EU countries to sort themselves out and take defence seriously.
SB |
I think an EU only alliance might not necessarily be a bad thing strategically. If a nuclear war ever breaks about between the so-called super powers, Europe may well be left out of it. Whereas if in NATO, we are doomed to be part of it.
Good to see you back posting BTW Stokie. |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:51 - Nov 30 with 1030 views | AndrewRatcliffITFC |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:26 - Nov 30 by WeWereZombies |
Article on the BBC website now:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn8g8ylvyldo
'President Volodymyr Zelensky has suggested that the parts of Ukraine under his control should be taken "under the Nato umbrella" to try and stop the "hot phase" of the war...Zelensky said he would, but only if Nato membership was offered to the whole of Ukraine, within its internationally recognised borders, first.
Ukraine could then attempt to negotiate the return of territory currently under Russian control "in a diplomatic way", he said.
But the suggestion is highly theoretical. As Zelensky pointed out, no-one has yet made such an offer.
Whether Nato would ever consider such a move is highly doubtful.' |
"Ukraine could then attempt to negotiate the return of territory currently under Russian control "in a diplomatic way"
Since the revolution in 2014 there were many opputunities for Ukraine to negotiate the return of territory by diplomatic means including the Poroshenko proposal, Minsk 1, minsk 2 and the Steinmeier Formula. Zelensky was elected on his promise to negotiate peace most of the Ukrainians were fed up with the war that had been rumbling on since 2014 and voted for him. The problem is Zelensky's hands are tied by the Ukrainian ultra nationalsts who will not tolerate a settlement for the Donbas. | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:57 - Nov 30 with 1022 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:51 - Nov 30 by AndrewRatcliffITFC |
"Ukraine could then attempt to negotiate the return of territory currently under Russian control "in a diplomatic way"
Since the revolution in 2014 there were many opputunities for Ukraine to negotiate the return of territory by diplomatic means including the Poroshenko proposal, Minsk 1, minsk 2 and the Steinmeier Formula. Zelensky was elected on his promise to negotiate peace most of the Ukrainians were fed up with the war that had been rumbling on since 2014 and voted for him. The problem is Zelensky's hands are tied by the Ukrainian ultra nationalsts who will not tolerate a settlement for the Donbas. |
Yes, it’s definitely Ukraine’s fault Russia invaded them to take their land and resources. Jesus wept.
Donbas is still a majority Ukrainian demographic (~60pc) - so why should they cede it to Russia, and the ethic Ukrainians be left to a future of Russian anuthorianism, impoverishment, discrimination, and Russification. [Post edited 30 Nov 13:02]
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:59 - Nov 30 with 1013 views | orfordbuoy |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:51 - Nov 30 by AndrewRatcliffITFC |
"Ukraine could then attempt to negotiate the return of territory currently under Russian control "in a diplomatic way"
Since the revolution in 2014 there were many opputunities for Ukraine to negotiate the return of territory by diplomatic means including the Poroshenko proposal, Minsk 1, minsk 2 and the Steinmeier Formula. Zelensky was elected on his promise to negotiate peace most of the Ukrainians were fed up with the war that had been rumbling on since 2014 and voted for him. The problem is Zelensky's hands are tied by the Ukrainian ultra nationalsts who will not tolerate a settlement for the Donbas. |
That makes so much sense - 'Russia to negotiate the return of territory to Ukraine'!?! The problem isn't Zelensky, Trump, ultra-nationalists, etc. - it's the sadistic dictator in Moscow.
Hopefully the worsening state of the Russian economy will actually get Russian folk to eventually do something about their useless dictator. |  | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:02 - Nov 30 with 1000 views | bournemouthblue |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:26 - Nov 30 by WeWereZombies |
Article on the BBC website now:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn8g8ylvyldo
'President Volodymyr Zelensky has suggested that the parts of Ukraine under his control should be taken "under the Nato umbrella" to try and stop the "hot phase" of the war...Zelensky said he would, but only if Nato membership was offered to the whole of Ukraine, within its internationally recognised borders, first.
Ukraine could then attempt to negotiate the return of territory currently under Russian control "in a diplomatic way", he said.
But the suggestion is highly theoretical. As Zelensky pointed out, no-one has yet made such an offer.
Whether Nato would ever consider such a move is highly doubtful.' |
Russia might accept on the premise they keep the area gained as a buffer zone
The buffer zone isn't a new thing, they wanted that in the Communist era too |  |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:02 - Nov 30 with 996 views | mellowblue |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 11:41 - Nov 30 by Churchman |
Some stats
https://www.statista.com/statistics/584286/number-of-military-personnel-in-nato-
Without the US and any serious political will, I’d suggested NATO is stone dead. By political will take for example U.K.- defence cuts this year and more to come. Not serious, not interested. Let’s have a review next year. Sending just the message Putin wants to hear. Bet he’s laughing his head off as he mangles his caviar on toast.
Does anyone seriously think people from Turkey, Greece or anywhere else come to that are going to rush to the aid of Poland, Finland and the Baltics without the US behind them?
What remains if NATO goes into the bin isn’t nothing, but it certainly isn’t anything for Putin to lose sleep over. Should Trump do what I think he might, the only question is who first. My money is on Poland. Everyone’s favourite meal throughout history. Russia has had 10 goes in 300 years and sees it as theirs. |
I think the Baltic states come first on the list. The rate that Poland is rearming and with friends on their Western and Southern borders mean they won't be a push over. Russia could have a tough time there, It won't be cavalry against tanks this time round. | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:04 - Nov 30 with 984 views | orfordbuoy |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:02 - Nov 30 by bournemouthblue |
Russia might accept on the premise they keep the area gained as a buffer zone
The buffer zone isn't a new thing, they wanted that in the Communist era too |
Russia or Putin?
2 very different entities. | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:20 - Nov 30 with 918 views | AndrewRatcliffITFC |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 12:57 - Nov 30 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Yes, it’s definitely Ukraine’s fault Russia invaded them to take their land and resources. Jesus wept.
Donbas is still a majority Ukrainian demographic (~60pc) - so why should they cede it to Russia, and the ethic Ukrainians be left to a future of Russian anuthorianism, impoverishment, discrimination, and Russification. [Post edited 30 Nov 13:02]
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It's very telling that you say the Donbas is still 60pc Ukrainian demographic. The implication is that the other 40% are not Ukrainians which is is exactly what The Pravy Sector and Ultra nationalists would maintain. The Donbas population were Ukrainian but of Ethnic Russian background. They have a right to live in their homeland with democratic representation in The Verkhovna Rada and not come under attack. That is unless you think they are not Ukrainian and should be removed from the Donbas. | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:21 - Nov 30 with 911 views | Blueschev |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 08:46 - Nov 30 by BloomBlue |
While that sounds like a good approach the problem will come when Trump eventually walks away from NATO. NATO without the US is nothing. |
There is a 0% chance of the US withdrawing from NATO. It is vital to their foreign policy objectives. |  | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:32 - Nov 30 with 880 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:20 - Nov 30 by AndrewRatcliffITFC |
It's very telling that you say the Donbas is still 60pc Ukrainian demographic. The implication is that the other 40% are not Ukrainians which is is exactly what The Pravy Sector and Ultra nationalists would maintain. The Donbas population were Ukrainian but of Ethnic Russian background. They have a right to live in their homeland with democratic representation in The Verkhovna Rada and not come under attack. That is unless you think they are not Ukrainian and should be removed from the Donbas. |
“and not come under attack. That is unless you think they are not Ukrainian and should be removed from the Donbas.”
Are you trolling? They literally are under attack - thanks to Russia, the Donbas is rubble and thousands of civilians dead. | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:45 - Nov 30 with 829 views | bournemouthblue |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:04 - Nov 30 by orfordbuoy |
Russia or Putin?
2 very different entities. |
Sadly Putin is Russia, it's hard to know what his overall goal is really but building up a buffer between Russia and NATO must be part of that | |
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| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:58 - Nov 30 with 794 views | AndrewRatcliffITFC |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:32 - Nov 30 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“and not come under attack. That is unless you think they are not Ukrainian and should be removed from the Donbas.”
Are you trolling? They literally are under attack - thanks to Russia, the Donbas is rubble and thousands of civilians dead. |
The Donbas was a war zone with thousands of civilians dead and over 1.5 million people displaced for years before Russia invaded specifically between the revolution in 2014 and 2022. Question, do you think there should be a settlement for the Ukrainians who are of Ethnic Russian background or do you follow the right wing perspective that they should be removed from Ukraine? | | | |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 14:02 - Nov 30 with 766 views | EdwardStone |
| Zelenskyy temporarily giving up land to Russia for NATO membership? on 13:45 - Nov 30 by bournemouthblue |
Sadly Putin is Russia, it's hard to know what his overall goal is really but building up a buffer between Russia and NATO must be part of that |
I don't see this buffer concept
Now that Finland has opted to join Nato as a direct result of Putin's actions, Russia now has a longer border with Nato than before.... the direct opposite of a buffer
I'm beginning to understand more and more that Putin's Ukraine adventure is just a land-grab for resources shrouded in the language of a historic fallacy of an historic "Greater Russia" |  | | |
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