Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... 12:30 - Jan 6 with 5333 views | Kievthegreat | But I'm watching the highlights on MOTD2 and I'm still of the mind that it's poor play from the backline not to react, not over commitment from Davis. Although the pundits do disagree. You can watch from 42:06 which is when we hit the post. At this point Davis is our furthest forward. However we've only got 4 men committed in their final third while Fulham have 8 (9 including GK). 42:10 Davis is making a challenge on the ball so can't retreat and still furthest forward. Still same numbers in the final third. So at this point we've got 6 players defending against 2 Fulham. Nowhere near over committed. 42:20 Fulham have gained possession and have put it out wide to their left back. Every town player is behind the ball and Fulham only have 4 in front of the ball. However every town player (bar the obvious one) is playing perfectly in shape as if Davis is there. 3 CBs in line, but only against one attacker; Burns in position, but marking no one; Morsy and Philips looking to keep close to the Fulham AMs in the middle. Then the Davis hole because Davis is still 15-20 yards behind. This is the problem. The defensive line doesn't adjust to the lack of Davis. We didn't overcommit numbers and they've not countered in numbers. If the defence shifts leftwards, you make that cross field ball far more challenging and potentially cut out the play. Instead we've overcommitted defensively to our right and Fulham have pushed the space that wasn't closed. Don't get me wrong, it's still a really sloppy tackle from Davis in the end and perhaps he could have put on the afterburners a fraction earlier to try and make up the space, but I'd be really disappointed in the backline and Phillips (as the DM on that side) for not responding to the threat if I was McKenna. |  | | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:36 - Jan 6 with 1202 views | bsw72 |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:28 - Jan 6 by FrimleyBlue | Nah just re watched it, al hamadi is free besides clarke at the point davis goes on the overlap. 2:41 on the highlights. BTW the shot IS the right option as it was played because of Davis's run btw, I just mean, IF davis drops back which imo he should have done instead of the overlap, then clarke still had an option. [Post edited 6 Jan 13:32]
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Ah, at that point yes is free but in a worse position and further out, and I would not have expected Al Hamadi in his current form to do anything from there. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:39 - Jan 6 with 1197 views | Vaughan8 | Looking at it again (not in that depth), it looks like Greaves is covering Traore as he runs inside. However Raul is on the right wing. Does anyone really know he's there? I'm not sure. Or is it all zonal marking etc at this point, I don't know. The crux of it is, Davis makes a tired tackle. If he just leaves him, I feel its unlikely they score as Greaves is in fairly close proximity. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:40 - Jan 6 with 1193 views | FrimleyBlue |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:36 - Jan 6 by bsw72 | Ah, at that point yes is free but in a worse position and further out, and I would not have expected Al Hamadi in his current form to do anything from there. |
It would I reckon been a pass to taylor and then turn back to burns etc. We will never know... lol |  |
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Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:43 - Jan 6 with 1184 views | BloomBlue | For me the first pen is worse. Prevent that and Fulham get more and more pressure from their fans. Leif darts in and pinches the ball, bombs upfield which also pulls the defender across, opening the space for Clarke to shoot. Many Town fans moaned last season that we sat back too often when leading, the old, attack is the best form of defence. That Clarke shot goes in and it's game over. Yes Leif's tackle is lazy, he should be aware strikers are trained to turn back inside in those situations with the aim of falling over a trailing leg. But for the first pen Morsy is looking towards the play so he can see we have defenders between the Fulham player and the goal, and has no need to even stick his foot out. Without that first pen Fulham under more and more pressure and reverting to long hopeful balls. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:47 - Jan 6 with 1170 views | FrimleyBlue |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:43 - Jan 6 by BloomBlue | For me the first pen is worse. Prevent that and Fulham get more and more pressure from their fans. Leif darts in and pinches the ball, bombs upfield which also pulls the defender across, opening the space for Clarke to shoot. Many Town fans moaned last season that we sat back too often when leading, the old, attack is the best form of defence. That Clarke shot goes in and it's game over. Yes Leif's tackle is lazy, he should be aware strikers are trained to turn back inside in those situations with the aim of falling over a trailing leg. But for the first pen Morsy is looking towards the play so he can see we have defenders between the Fulham player and the goal, and has no need to even stick his foot out. Without that first pen Fulham under more and more pressure and reverting to long hopeful balls. |
I honestly don't understand the Morsy pen, at least with Leifs, it was just a poor attempt at getting the ball. But with Morsys it's not even an attempt at a tackle, it's more of a stab at the back of the legs of the player, it's really bizarre especially with VAR |  |
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(No subject) (n/t) on 14:06 - Jan 6 with 1134 views | NeverSayDie | [Post edited 6 Jan 14:06]
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Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 14:21 - Jan 6 with 1110 views | NeverSayDie | Sorry, PC went weird and posted before I'd reached the end of my first sentence last time, maybe fat finger? Anyway, what I was attempting to say, firstly, was that it's a scenario that will never be agreed upon by fans, there's a number of different views that can be aired based on an individuals interpretation of football and openness to risk/reward, there's not a right, or wrong answer, there just IS. My view of the goal at the time, remains with me today. I believe it was an extremely naive piece of play by Davis to make an overlap in the 90th minute of a crucial game away from home, against a side in good recent form, seeking more goals, rather than potentially sealing back to back wins and swinging the odds of survival in our favour. It was then an extremely poor piece of defending by Davis to give away the penalty. Prior to the game, we were all in the knowledge that Fulham were the second highest scorers in the league in the last 15 minutes of games, if this stat passed our management/players by, then they should review the pre match preparation process. This should have been all the information we needed to shut up shop with a 1-2 lead. At the same time, I don't think he should have even been on the pitch, as another example of his poor defending (the foul on Wilson) should have seen a red card. On that basis, I think we were lucky to come out of the game with a point and Fulham would have rightly felt extremely aggrieved to have lost the game, if the tables were turned, we'd be spitting feathers about not being a red. [Post edited 6 Jan 14:39]
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Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 14:43 - Jan 6 with 1092 views | Kievthegreat |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 12:49 - Jan 6 by bsw72 | Question - how is Phillips simoultaneously expected to close down Smith-Rowe in the centre of midfield AND cover the left back position?? To clarify, Davis had got back and was covered by Greaves, but stuck a leg out and gave a penalty away. It's not about covering defenders, they were in place, it was about Davis making a mistake, which was the poor challenge. |
I don't think Phillips on his own is to blame at all and I never said so. It's about not adjusting as a defensive unit. Davis has bombed forward. We may not think it was the right decision, but it seems to be exactly what Kieran wants. However when play has come back towards us, despite having plenty of men back, we've left Davis's position badly exposed. Davis created the gap in order to create a chance. The rest of the defensive unit have not adjusted their shape which is poor. We know as a unit to filter in behind and Phillips does this during our possession, but then reverts back to normal afterwards. I do agree on Davis making a poor challenge, but we've invited the ball across with some poor defending before that happens. It's a situation we could have handled far better before Davis makes the foul. |  | |  | Login to get fewer ads
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 14:50 - Jan 6 with 1072 views | Kievthegreat |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 14:21 - Jan 6 by NeverSayDie | Sorry, PC went weird and posted before I'd reached the end of my first sentence last time, maybe fat finger? Anyway, what I was attempting to say, firstly, was that it's a scenario that will never be agreed upon by fans, there's a number of different views that can be aired based on an individuals interpretation of football and openness to risk/reward, there's not a right, or wrong answer, there just IS. My view of the goal at the time, remains with me today. I believe it was an extremely naive piece of play by Davis to make an overlap in the 90th minute of a crucial game away from home, against a side in good recent form, seeking more goals, rather than potentially sealing back to back wins and swinging the odds of survival in our favour. It was then an extremely poor piece of defending by Davis to give away the penalty. Prior to the game, we were all in the knowledge that Fulham were the second highest scorers in the league in the last 15 minutes of games, if this stat passed our management/players by, then they should review the pre match preparation process. This should have been all the information we needed to shut up shop with a 1-2 lead. At the same time, I don't think he should have even been on the pitch, as another example of his poor defending (the foul on Wilson) should have seen a red card. On that basis, I think we were lucky to come out of the game with a point and Fulham would have rightly felt extremely aggrieved to have lost the game, if the tables were turned, we'd be spitting feathers about not being a red. [Post edited 6 Jan 14:39]
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It's partly semantics, but I don't think it's fair to call Davis overlapping HIM being naïve. I think he's doing exactly what Kieran wanted and the shot hitting the post shows exactly why Kieran wants us to do that. If we are to say anyone is naïve it's Kieran McKenna. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 14:53 - Jan 6 with 1067 views | ibbleobble |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 12:57 - Jan 6 by homer_123 | Where I disagree is that is was the wrong decision to bomb forward. He's nipped in front of Traore and won the ball brilliantly and then supported his teammate. I've no issue with that, even at that stage of the game. Both Morsy and Davis made poor challenges - that's it. |
Agreed. A few centimetres to the right, we go 3-1 up, the game is over and this conversation doesn’t happen. Fine margins. I have no qualms with anything that unfolded - it was just entertaining football all round ie: over lapping full backs, excellent skill, great vision from Fulham to exploit the space and a tired tackle deep in the game from a player with attacking intent trying to seal the game and keep Fulham deep in their half. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 15:12 - Jan 6 with 1040 views | NeverSayDie |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 14:50 - Jan 6 by Kievthegreat | It's partly semantics, but I don't think it's fair to call Davis overlapping HIM being naïve. I think he's doing exactly what Kieran wanted and the shot hitting the post shows exactly why Kieran wants us to do that. If we are to say anyone is naïve it's Kieran McKenna. |
They’re all still learning, including McKenna and it’s still a dream to be in the Prem after 2 successive promotions, we could be moaning about dropping points in league 1, so from that perspective, all is good in the world. I don’t disagree with you, like I said, we will all have a different view, maybe Leif had been told to drop off and didn’t listen? Were there any instructions given to the players? Should there have been? Maybe the manager wanted him to do that, as you said, in which case I agree and think McK is naive in that situation. Thing is, the simple fact that we are constantly debating these scenarios week in and week out really tells us all what we already know, we’re not quite good enough yet for this league, but we could still survive and that’s all this seasons about. The importance of theJanuary transfers cannot be underestimated, most crucial aspect for the club in well over 20 years IMO, can the recruitment team deliver? |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 15:55 - Jan 6 with 1012 views | Exiled2Surrey |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 14:21 - Jan 6 by NeverSayDie | Sorry, PC went weird and posted before I'd reached the end of my first sentence last time, maybe fat finger? Anyway, what I was attempting to say, firstly, was that it's a scenario that will never be agreed upon by fans, there's a number of different views that can be aired based on an individuals interpretation of football and openness to risk/reward, there's not a right, or wrong answer, there just IS. My view of the goal at the time, remains with me today. I believe it was an extremely naive piece of play by Davis to make an overlap in the 90th minute of a crucial game away from home, against a side in good recent form, seeking more goals, rather than potentially sealing back to back wins and swinging the odds of survival in our favour. It was then an extremely poor piece of defending by Davis to give away the penalty. Prior to the game, we were all in the knowledge that Fulham were the second highest scorers in the league in the last 15 minutes of games, if this stat passed our management/players by, then they should review the pre match preparation process. This should have been all the information we needed to shut up shop with a 1-2 lead. At the same time, I don't think he should have even been on the pitch, as another example of his poor defending (the foul on Wilson) should have seen a red card. On that basis, I think we were lucky to come out of the game with a point and Fulham would have rightly felt extremely aggrieved to have lost the game, if the tables were turned, we'd be spitting feathers about not being a red. [Post edited 6 Jan 14:39]
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Although the last time the team they were playing went down to 10 men, the opposition scored 2 and Fulham just one - so maybe they should be careful what they wish for… |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 17:17 - Jan 6 with 964 views | 66notout | Thank goodness for these contributions. To think I was worried who we might turn to in the event of Kieran moving to pastures new. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 17:39 - Jan 6 with 947 views | NeverSayDie |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 15:55 - Jan 6 by Exiled2Surrey | Although the last time the team they were playing went down to 10 men, the opposition scored 2 and Fulham just one - so maybe they should be careful what they wish for… |
If that was us, I’d have been overjoyed to get a point from that game, even if they were down to 9 men 😀 |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 18:24 - Jan 6 with 930 views | Pinewoodblue |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 12:58 - Jan 6 by bsw72 | If the issue was Davis being caught out of position I would agree, but he had got back in enough time to hold up Jiminez only to be turned a second time and then mis-time the tackle. What's more frustrating is that Greaves was directly behind and I reckon would have tackled Jiminez had he not been brought down . . . Davis playing that role IS the game plan, he just made a mistake with the tackle . . . |
I’m going to look at the tackle differently to those above. First look at Fulham Managers post match comments on Jimenez. It included this gem “ It’s not just the goals today. The way he won fouls, the way he was always there to help the team.“ Jimenez forced the foul by a slight change of direction, or pace. His foot wasn’t where Davis expected it, fine margins but it earned a penalty for Fulham. Suspect Jimenez would have gone down if there had been no contact. |  |
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Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 19:28 - Jan 6 with 903 views | Swansea_Blue | For all those saying he was back in position, he was only just and was finding it hard to get back, hence the very tired tackle. With 5 at the back and sitting midfielders we really shouldn’t be expecting Davis to simultaneously be an attacking outlet and last line of defence. We could have dealt with that threat earlier and then there’s no chance of it being a penalty. It’s easy from an armchair though! |  |
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Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 20:05 - Jan 6 with 883 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 12:49 - Jan 6 by bsw72 | Question - how is Phillips simoultaneously expected to close down Smith-Rowe in the centre of midfield AND cover the left back position?? To clarify, Davis had got back and was covered by Greaves, but stuck a leg out and gave a penalty away. It's not about covering defenders, they were in place, it was about Davis making a mistake, which was the poor challenge. |
This. It was a tired mistake as was Morsy's to give away the other penalty. Very disappointing because they rarely threatened otherwise. Another game we really should have won. However, we would have taken a point before the match. I also think Davis could easily have seen red for the first half foul. I think it is one of those that VAR leaves with the ref's call whichever way he calls it. The irony is that had he seen red then he wouldn't have been on the pitch to give away the penalty either! |  |
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Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 20:59 - Jan 6 with 862 views | braveblue | Very good point. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 21:17 - Jan 6 with 852 views | billlm | Look at the highlights, Fulham don't really attack that last penalty passage of play with gusto, Davis is 85% back in position but ambling as usual, then the ball comes to the mexican, a little more urgency and he has him covered, also Greaves dosent react quick enough, In real time I thought Davis was further away but he actually isn't, Not great defending by him AGAIN, |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 21:28 - Jan 6 with 836 views | Blue_Heath | Sorry but at 2-1 up with a few mins left see the game out rather than over commit. We are not in L1 or the championship anymore where we can get away with it and likely win win 3-1. These throw away 2 points are gonna kill us at the end of the season. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 21:35 - Jan 6 with 814 views | BloomBlue |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 21:28 - Jan 6 by Blue_Heath | Sorry but at 2-1 up with a few mins left see the game out rather than over commit. We are not in L1 or the championship anymore where we can get away with it and likely win win 3-1. These throw away 2 points are gonna kill us at the end of the season. |
We didn't over commit against Bournemouth, and actually a lot of Town fans were screaming 'push out', 'get it forward', 'don't sit back' and we lost that game from a winning position. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 22:26 - Jan 6 with 792 views | Trequartista |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 21:28 - Jan 6 by Blue_Heath | Sorry but at 2-1 up with a few mins left see the game out rather than over commit. We are not in L1 or the championship anymore where we can get away with it and likely win win 3-1. These throw away 2 points are gonna kill us at the end of the season. |
Sit back and inviting pressure has not gone well previously either, it was just one of those things. |  |
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Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 23:48 - Jan 6 with 742 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 13:08 - Jan 6 by bsw72 | Phillips is covering the space between Smith Rowe and Traore (Morsy and Phillips / Cajuste perform Zonal Marking) in the centre of the field when Smith Rowe receives the ball, Morsy is slow to react to Smith-Rowe so Phillips goes to close him down, Smith-Rowe playes the ball early and Juminez runs on to it. At this point Davis has got back, Greaves and Morsy have covered the space behind Davis and Traore has been left to run into an offside position and as Jiminez cuts back a second time and Davis trips him, even Phillips has covered the run by Smith-Rowe into the penalty area. I cannot even believe anyone apart from Davis is being called out at fault for that this . . . everyone else did their job, it was just a lazy/tired tackle - a simple mistake from a single player . . . not sure why people are trying to make it out to be a huge tactical failure. |
It was a huge tactical error at that stage of the game. This is where our tactical naivety showed. |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 01:06 - Jan 7 with 692 views | BrockleyBlue78 |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 23:48 - Jan 6 by Eireannach_gorm | It was a huge tactical error at that stage of the game. This is where our tactical naivety showed. |
Would other teams / players have run to the corner when Clarke got the ball to run the clock down in a safe area of the pitch? |  | |  |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 06:03 - Jan 7 with 649 views | Blue_Heath |
Sorry to Dig up the Davis Going Forward Discussion again.... on 22:26 - Jan 6 by Trequartista | Sit back and inviting pressure has not gone well previously either, it was just one of those things. |
I take your point but with this new back 5 I have more confidence we can do it. |  | |  |
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