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So have watched back the Joao Pedro challenge on Walton, and then considered the VAR response: "The referee’s call of yellow card for João Pedro was checked and confirmed by VAR, who deemed that the challenge was not serious foul play." While I agree it was not serious foul play, I want to consider the following 3 scenarios:
1 - Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed. 2 - Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned. 3 - Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off.
I think the challenge was more than reckless and while not be excessive I believe "endangered the safety of the opponent".
Sadly I think VAR has lead to referees now making more lenient decisions knowing that VAR will correct the worst - but seems to be allowing those that may be open to debate being let go.
If Delap had done the same to the BHA keeper, guarantee that he would have been shown red, as he has started to get a bit of a rep for leaving his mark.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:38 - Jan 17 with 3145 views
I feel it was a definite red card, this is purely because Pedro looks straight at Walton and aims his shoulder directly at his head, no attempt was made to pull out of a very late and very heavy challenge. This was from TV coverage not live.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:40 - Jan 17 with 3120 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:38 - Jan 17 by tractorboy1978
If the ref gave a red card then VAR would not have overturned it. Which is why it is all a bit of a nonsense to be honest.
Like the referee review panel that said the challenge on Chappers during the Leicester game should have been a penalty but VAR were correct not to intervene???
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:47 - Jan 17 with 3051 views
The TV pictures are very clear. Most comments here on this site on this premeditated assault have probably been made by those who were at the game, without the benefit of seeing those pictures.
As well as your points which are well made, the offender actually seems to accelerate over the last 5 yards too, the only object being to cause serious injury.
There should be a way of the TV company saying, "look, we don't want this kind of thing in football, so, with respect, Premier League, please take some retrospective action, using our pictures as evidence".
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:50 - Jan 17 with 3012 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:47 - Jan 17 by Facefacts
The TV pictures are very clear. Most comments here on this site on this premeditated assault have probably been made by those who were at the game, without the benefit of seeing those pictures.
As well as your points which are well made, the offender actually seems to accelerate over the last 5 yards too, the only object being to cause serious injury.
There should be a way of the TV company saying, "look, we don't want this kind of thing in football, so, with respect, Premier League, please take some retrospective action, using our pictures as evidence".
Eh? I was suggesting it was a red card as Walton was clearly endangered, and did so at the time from other other end of the ground before I had seen replays today.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:53 - Jan 17 with 2967 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:47 - Jan 17 by Facefacts
The TV pictures are very clear. Most comments here on this site on this premeditated assault have probably been made by those who were at the game, without the benefit of seeing those pictures.
As well as your points which are well made, the offender actually seems to accelerate over the last 5 yards too, the only object being to cause serious injury.
There should be a way of the TV company saying, "look, we don't want this kind of thing in football, so, with respect, Premier League, please take some retrospective action, using our pictures as evidence".
And because of the archaic rules by the FA no retrospective action possible as was seen by the ref at the time and a caution given.
This is the same organisation that want to clean up grassroots football yet their prime product allows young footballers to see this and think its almost OK to do.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:54 - Jan 17 with 2968 views
"Sadly I think VAR has lead to referees now making more lenient decisions knowing that VAR will correct the worst - but seems to be allowing those that may be open to debate being let go."
This is exactly what is happening. They are bottling the decisions, thinking that they have a safety net in VAR. But of course VAR is trying to draw back from the overbearing interference of previous seasons, and so the safety net has huge holes in it...
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:47 - Jan 17 by Facefacts
The TV pictures are very clear. Most comments here on this site on this premeditated assault have probably been made by those who were at the game, without the benefit of seeing those pictures.
As well as your points which are well made, the offender actually seems to accelerate over the last 5 yards too, the only object being to cause serious injury.
There should be a way of the TV company saying, "look, we don't want this kind of thing in football, so, with respect, Premier League, please take some retrospective action, using our pictures as evidence".
What on earth are you on about?
You want TV companies to start getting involved in retrospective decisions???
For what it's worth, I think it could have gone either way. The slow motion replays make it look 100x worse than what it was. People saying that he's looking at Walton and deliberately moves his shoulder towards Walton's face are forgetting that he was sprinting flat out to get on to the ball and had a very little time to make the decision to pull out. We'd be applauding Delap if he was chasing that down
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:06 - Jan 17 with 2832 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:05 - Jan 17 by NedPlimpton
What on earth are you on about?
You want TV companies to start getting involved in retrospective decisions???
For what it's worth, I think it could have gone either way. The slow motion replays make it look 100x worse than what it was. People saying that he's looking at Walton and deliberately moves his shoulder towards Walton's face are forgetting that he was sprinting flat out to get on to the ball and had a very little time to make the decision to pull out. We'd be applauding Delap if he was chasing that down
He altered direction. He didnt try to slow down after the ball was clearly gone. Anywhere else on the pitch, thats an instant red.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:12 - Jan 17 with 2775 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:05 - Jan 17 by NedPlimpton
What on earth are you on about?
You want TV companies to start getting involved in retrospective decisions???
For what it's worth, I think it could have gone either way. The slow motion replays make it look 100x worse than what it was. People saying that he's looking at Walton and deliberately moves his shoulder towards Walton's face are forgetting that he was sprinting flat out to get on to the ball and had a very little time to make the decision to pull out. We'd be applauding Delap if he was chasing that down
Why did he jump into Walton when the ball was always on the ground and you could see Walton wasn't going to kick it long as his body shape all wrong to do that? Why did Pedro not put his arms out to break the impact but instead rotate his shoulder towards Walton?
He might have had little time to react due to speed but if you are late there can be consequences to your decision to chase it down.
Agree it's difficult realtime to see that so can except the Ref may not have the best view, but VAR has to ask the Ref to take another look and then decide himself.
And for the record I don't think I would be applauding Delap for doing that actually. Yes the barging like he did in the Fulham game at very start where his feet on the ground and he is in full control, jumping out of control at speed is so very different.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:16 - Jan 17 with 2734 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:06 - Jan 17 by redrickstuhaart
He altered direction. He didnt try to slow down after the ball was clearly gone. Anywhere else on the pitch, thats an instant red.
He alters direction slightly away from Walton. If he'd have carried on running in a straight line he would have clattered into him face first?
Anyway, i'm not really wanting to get into if t was or wasn't. Genuinely was fuming that it wasn't given as a red at the time, but I think if that exact thing had happened to Delap i'd be fuming if a red had been given
I'm more concerned about the previous poster saying he wants TV companies to get involved with retrospective decisions!!
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:23 - Jan 17 with 2637 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:16 - Jan 17 by NedPlimpton
He alters direction slightly away from Walton. If he'd have carried on running in a straight line he would have clattered into him face first?
Anyway, i'm not really wanting to get into if t was or wasn't. Genuinely was fuming that it wasn't given as a red at the time, but I think if that exact thing had happened to Delap i'd be fuming if a red had been given
I'm more concerned about the previous poster saying he wants TV companies to get involved with retrospective decisions!!
Agree the TV companies thing is a bit random, it really isn't anything of their concern to take any action over. The FA should be concerned how this can be perceived to all those at other levels of the game.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:36 - Jan 17 with 2525 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 11:39 - Jan 17 by Basuco
I feel it was a definite red card, this is purely because Pedro looks straight at Walton and aims his shoulder directly at his head, no attempt was made to pull out of a very late and very heavy challenge. This was from TV coverage not live.
How far off the Schumacher / Battiston challenge (reversed as in keeper nailed forward in that case).
Watch back the footage from '82 and the footage from last night, admittedly not as bad, but still not great.
The main difference is that Walton is not moving toward Joao Pedro, so the speed of collision is lessened. Apart from that, the leap into the player is not *that* disimilar.
Hey ho, not a lot can be done now.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:42 - Jan 17 with 2439 views
It's a classic case of if our players (almost all of them) rush to the referee and make a fuss, I think Pedro walks.
On balance I think a yellow is right. It's a massive call to determine that a player has deliberately tried to hurt another, like the Duran one recently - the fact that was given and stood later was harsh.
However, it's hard not to take a players reputation into account, and Pedro in my view shouldn't even have been available for last night after his attempted elbow against Brentford. How that didn't get given at the time I have no idea.
And the fact that he jumps into Walton and seemingly makes no attempt to stop himself - normally you see a player's arms come out there to soften the impact. Sod it, it was a definite red card!
A lot of the defence for Pedro seems to be 'what else could he do as he was running at such pace' which to me means than how he stops/avoids the collision is immaterial as long as he defends himself (from a situation he's created) and the opponents safety isn't even considered. It also means he's basically out of control and as others have pointed out, but then is in enough control to leap into Walton for good measure. He takes his eye off the ball way before he gets anywhere near Walton.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:59 - Jan 17 with 2309 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:45 - Jan 17 by WestStanderLaLaLa
We talk about keepers being over protected but I agree, if that was on an outfield player anywhere else on the pitch it gets a red
I think so. But Westy thought he'd only get away with a yellow after seeing it was a shoulder, so it seems it's an arguable one. He knows better than me, but I thought it was violent conduct. Jao Pedro's targeting him after the ball has gone.
The tone was set when Webster was allowed to go straight through Hutch after the ball, two-footed and with studs up. That should have been a yellow. Had our players done those challenges I wouldn't have been at all surprised to see a red and yellow.
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:42 - Jan 17 by Garv
It's a classic case of if our players (almost all of them) rush to the referee and make a fuss, I think Pedro walks.
On balance I think a yellow is right. It's a massive call to determine that a player has deliberately tried to hurt another, like the Duran one recently - the fact that was given and stood later was harsh.
However, it's hard not to take a players reputation into account, and Pedro in my view shouldn't even have been available for last night after his attempted elbow against Brentford. How that didn't get given at the time I have no idea.
And the fact that he jumps into Walton and seemingly makes no attempt to stop himself - normally you see a player's arms come out there to soften the impact. Sod it, it was a definite red card!
[Post edited 17 Jan 15:53]
Doesnt need to be deliberately hurting. Excessive force, or recklessness is enough. Both apply here if it was not intentional.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 13:10 - Jan 17 with 2223 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 12:42 - Jan 17 by Garv
It's a classic case of if our players (almost all of them) rush to the referee and make a fuss, I think Pedro walks.
On balance I think a yellow is right. It's a massive call to determine that a player has deliberately tried to hurt another, like the Duran one recently - the fact that was given and stood later was harsh.
However, it's hard not to take a players reputation into account, and Pedro in my view shouldn't even have been available for last night after his attempted elbow against Brentford. How that didn't get given at the time I have no idea.
And the fact that he jumps into Walton and seemingly makes no attempt to stop himself - normally you see a player's arms come out there to soften the impact. Sod it, it was a definite red card!
[Post edited 17 Jan 15:53]
Pedro clearly jumps at Walton. Red card . Thought so last night and again today watching the replay. Let down by officials and VAR yet again.
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 13:40 - Jan 17 with 2060 views
Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 13:05 - Jan 17 by redrickstuhaart
Doesnt need to be deliberately hurting. Excessive force, or recklessness is enough. Both apply here if it was not intentional.
I suppose its a slightly different situation with an outfield player in that it needs to be usually 2 feet off the ground and thereby endangering the opponent while out of control. This to me satisfies all those criteria though! It's all this 'he's protecting himself against the collision' i don't get - he's solely caused the collision!
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Red card? Frustration with VAR response on 14:10 - Jan 17 with 1917 views
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