| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... 02:44 - Mar 4 with 3075 views | Kropotkin123 |
"We are pausing and reviewing our aid to ensure that it is contributing to a solution".
This was clearly their aim going into the meeting. Pick a fight, pull military aid.
I think we need to expropriate the ~350bn Russian assets. |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 06:13 - Mar 4 with 2434 views | iamatractorboy |
Well colour me a shade of not-at-all-shocked. Trump being a good boy for Putin and doing exactly what he's told. |  | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 08:45 - Mar 4 with 2249 views | WeWereZombies |
But can the funds from Russian assets be turned into weapons quickly enough outside of the United States before Russia exploits a damaged supply chain ? |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 08:53 - Mar 4 with 2222 views | peterleeblue |
Tactic to displace VZ? |  | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 08:58 - Mar 4 with 2211 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 08:53 - Mar 4 by peterleeblue |
Tactic to displace VZ? |
Nope. Tactic to withdraw aid without alienating the 50% of the US public who didn't vote for him.
"VZ doesn't want peace, and if you are left leaning, you all want peace"
America has become a dangerous country to deal with and I'm concerned that KS is lining up a trade deal with them, I think we should officially end 'the special relationship', before Trump does. |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 10:29 - Mar 4 with 2096 views | Guthrum |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 08:58 - Mar 4 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Nope. Tactic to withdraw aid without alienating the 50% of the US public who didn't vote for him.
"VZ doesn't want peace, and if you are left leaning, you all want peace"
America has become a dangerous country to deal with and I'm concerned that KS is lining up a trade deal with them, I think we should officially end 'the special relationship', before Trump does. |
I'm fine with Starmer tiptoing around the edge of the volcano for now, so long as he is also making preparations for an eruption. After all, there is no point plunging head-first into something which could be avoided (or, at least, mitigated/postponed) by more deft handling.
It's not "enabling", because Trump will act how he likes irrespective of anyone else. The best we can do is a degree of self-preservation. |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 10:38 - Mar 4 with 2037 views | EdwardStone |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 08:53 - Mar 4 by peterleeblue |
Tactic to displace VZ? |
Much more fundamental than that, I'm sorry to say
Complete destruction of the post 1945 doctrine and total submission to Putin and his desire to rule/ terrorise Europe
Although the big orange sh1tgibbon would be happy to see Zelenskyy hung out to dry for daring to speak out against him |  | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 10:46 - Mar 4 with 2019 views | Swansea_Blue |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 10:29 - Mar 4 by Guthrum |
I'm fine with Starmer tiptoing around the edge of the volcano for now, so long as he is also making preparations for an eruption. After all, there is no point plunging head-first into something which could be avoided (or, at least, mitigated/postponed) by more deft handling.
It's not "enabling", because Trump will act how he likes irrespective of anyone else. The best we can do is a degree of self-preservation. |
Nicely put. The positive international reaction to Starmer seems to suggest he’s played it very well so far. I’d never in a million years have thought he’d end up being the glue that’s trying* to keep everyone stuck together and on track. It’s rare international leadership from the UK.
*It’s very much unlikely to work with Trump, but worth a shot, as you say.
Getting over the inertia of the EU countries (and us) from just talking to actual action is going to be a massive challenge though. As we’ve seen from climate talks, this lot of leaders are great at talking. Not so good at acting with any sort of pace. [Post edited 4 Mar 10:52]
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 11:27 - Mar 4 with 1908 views | WeWereZombies |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 10:29 - Mar 4 by Guthrum |
I'm fine with Starmer tiptoing around the edge of the volcano for now, so long as he is also making preparations for an eruption. After all, there is no point plunging head-first into something which could be avoided (or, at least, mitigated/postponed) by more deft handling.
It's not "enabling", because Trump will act how he likes irrespective of anyone else. The best we can do is a degree of self-preservation. |
Damage limitation is not tiptoeing around the edge of the volcano, it is evacuating a wide area, hopefully before eruption, pyroclastic flows, ash cloud expansion and molten rock projectiles cause loss of life. You have to sacrifice immovable property though.
Companies from the United Kingdom have a lot of investment in the United States, withdrawing that investment (potentially in a climate of a rapidly weakening dollar) will take time...and a great deal of tact. | |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 11:34 - Mar 4 with 1845 views | iamatractorboy |
From the BBC...
'On the daily Kremlin conference call, I just asked President Putin’s spokesman for his reaction to America pausing military aid to Ukraine.
“Of course, we still need to check the details,” Dmitry Peskov says. “If it’s true, then this is a decision which could really push the Kyiv regime to a peace process.”
Later on in the call, Peskov adds that the United States had been the main supplier of weapons for Ukraine.
“If the US stops, or pauses these supplies, this will probably be the best contribution to the cause of peace,” he says.'
From me...
No, the best contribution to the cause of peace would be for Russia to f**k off out of Ukraine. | | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 11:37 - Mar 4 with 1837 views | bluester |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 11:27 - Mar 4 by WeWereZombies |
Damage limitation is not tiptoeing around the edge of the volcano, it is evacuating a wide area, hopefully before eruption, pyroclastic flows, ash cloud expansion and molten rock projectiles cause loss of life. You have to sacrifice immovable property though.
Companies from the United Kingdom have a lot of investment in the United States, withdrawing that investment (potentially in a climate of a rapidly weakening dollar) will take time...and a great deal of tact. |
You can do both. I think it's prudent to look like you're "tiptoeing around the edge of the volcano", all whilst preparing to get lava splooged in your face. | | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 12:43 - Mar 4 with 1715 views | Churchman |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 10:46 - Mar 4 by Swansea_Blue |
Nicely put. The positive international reaction to Starmer seems to suggest he’s played it very well so far. I’d never in a million years have thought he’d end up being the glue that’s trying* to keep everyone stuck together and on track. It’s rare international leadership from the UK.
*It’s very much unlikely to work with Trump, but worth a shot, as you say.
Getting over the inertia of the EU countries (and us) from just talking to actual action is going to be a massive challenge though. As we’ve seen from climate talks, this lot of leaders are great at talking. Not so good at acting with any sort of pace. [Post edited 4 Mar 10:52]
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I agree with yourself and Guthrum on this. Neatly put.
Ok so Macron and Starmer creep@rsed around Trump last week. They had to and have to try everything. There’s the short game to play and the long one. It’s about damage limitation for as long as possible while we get ourselves in a fit state to defend ourselves militarily and adjust from a trade perspective.
With so many countries, there is an inertia about Europe. A difference between talk and action. Given how things are polarising I still think the crucial part of this is France, Germany and U.K. they are the biggest economies and so have to try and drive this from a defence perspective. Trade wise, the U.K. will get no ‘deal’ from the US that is worth the name.
Commentator Jeremy Bowen on Radio 4 this morning said that Trump and America simply see the rest of the world as a resource to enrich themselves. Nothing else. Paraphrasing him, the rest of the world is there to take what they want, bend and plunder for their benefit.
A deal used to mean an arrangement that benefits both parties. America First is all about deals that benefit the US. Anyone else - who cares. They have no sense of right and wrong, no sense about what might be of benefit to them and their partners long term either. No interest in the lessons of two world wars that led to NATO and the U.N etc or anything else. Basically they are Russia and Russia is them. They share exactly the same values. God help the the people that don’t, even if they’re a minority.
America at the expense of everyone else by whatever method should be the slogan. Or anything goes as long as me and my mates get the loot.
What has happened in the US disgusts me. Last Friday was a set up. Subsequent actions prove that. Feeling offended because the victim of aggression whose people are being killed every day (before we get to torture and kidnap) didn’t grovel at their feet in gratitude for being stripped of their assets was truly bizarre. But not in the context of Trumps words and today’s actions.
Whether it is this, tariffs, trade, nothing will improve with the US and even if it ever does, it’s too late. Without telling America, we need to move away from them as quickly as we can and leaving them to enjoy the fruits of their plundering, blackmail, theft and dodgy deals.
Back to Starmer, he’s surprised me. I never thought he could impress in the way he has. But he’s going to have to go a lot further and quicker both in the defence sense but also economic, whether that’s closer ties with Europe, real allies, China or the Romulans. Trump and co in their evil? We know where we stand now. [Post edited 4 Mar 12:46]
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 14:41 - Mar 4 with 1469 views | J2BLUE |
Extortion and theft.
Boycott US goods. |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 14:51 - Mar 4 with 1442 views | bluejacko |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 12:43 - Mar 4 by Churchman |
I agree with yourself and Guthrum on this. Neatly put.
Ok so Macron and Starmer creep@rsed around Trump last week. They had to and have to try everything. There’s the short game to play and the long one. It’s about damage limitation for as long as possible while we get ourselves in a fit state to defend ourselves militarily and adjust from a trade perspective.
With so many countries, there is an inertia about Europe. A difference between talk and action. Given how things are polarising I still think the crucial part of this is France, Germany and U.K. they are the biggest economies and so have to try and drive this from a defence perspective. Trade wise, the U.K. will get no ‘deal’ from the US that is worth the name.
Commentator Jeremy Bowen on Radio 4 this morning said that Trump and America simply see the rest of the world as a resource to enrich themselves. Nothing else. Paraphrasing him, the rest of the world is there to take what they want, bend and plunder for their benefit.
A deal used to mean an arrangement that benefits both parties. America First is all about deals that benefit the US. Anyone else - who cares. They have no sense of right and wrong, no sense about what might be of benefit to them and their partners long term either. No interest in the lessons of two world wars that led to NATO and the U.N etc or anything else. Basically they are Russia and Russia is them. They share exactly the same values. God help the the people that don’t, even if they’re a minority.
America at the expense of everyone else by whatever method should be the slogan. Or anything goes as long as me and my mates get the loot.
What has happened in the US disgusts me. Last Friday was a set up. Subsequent actions prove that. Feeling offended because the victim of aggression whose people are being killed every day (before we get to torture and kidnap) didn’t grovel at their feet in gratitude for being stripped of their assets was truly bizarre. But not in the context of Trumps words and today’s actions.
Whether it is this, tariffs, trade, nothing will improve with the US and even if it ever does, it’s too late. Without telling America, we need to move away from them as quickly as we can and leaving them to enjoy the fruits of their plundering, blackmail, theft and dodgy deals.
Back to Starmer, he’s surprised me. I never thought he could impress in the way he has. But he’s going to have to go a lot further and quicker both in the defence sense but also economic, whether that’s closer ties with Europe, real allies, China or the Romulans. Trump and co in their evil? We know where we stand now. [Post edited 4 Mar 12:46]
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Good summary, I don’t think there will be much inertia from the Baltics and Finland re defence they know what’s at stake! It’s the likes of Belgium that is the worry,isn’t the bulk of the 300 b frozen assets there? To be frank they don’t like saying boo to a goose so IF they decided to use those assets would Belgium actually release them🤔
Vance was at it again with comments about 20,000 troops from “random” armies that haven’t fought a war in 30/40 yrs. forming a peacekeeping force obviously he didn’t take much notice of these random armies in Iraq and Afghanistan did he the prat! | | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:03 - Mar 4 with 1402 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 08:45 - Mar 4 by WeWereZombies |
But can the funds from Russian assets be turned into weapons quickly enough outside of the United States before Russia exploits a damaged supply chain ? |
Complex question.
TLDR: I'd be surprised if US stops us buying weapons from them, as it is an opportunity for Trump to salvage some money from the situation. But if they did we would be good for 6m, hobble along thereafter, and then it is about how many of these agreements we could have got together. I would have wanted to see more from the weekend's meeting, so my assessment is we are likely to be too slow to be effective enough in 6 months
Detail: Estimates suggest Ukraine can carry on in it's current capacity for 6 months.
Would the US block the sale of military equipment to US allies?That would be an even crazier escalation, which would have to result in Europe fully pivoting away from the US industrial defense base for ever. Something we would need to be careful of. Would it be enough for Trump to be financially out of the war and Europe paying for it? Hopefully, after all he has said he doesn't care how the war ends.
Ukraine has done a lot to produce certain weapons (particularly drones) in its own country. The challenge here has been the lack of long term money. So, not having a 4 year commitment of X amount of money. This was Kaja Kallas's point behind the 0.25 of GDP plan (which should have been adopted). Ukraine could ramp up here. But it can't do it effectively living paycheck to paycheck as it does now.
Then there are certain weapons, like rifles, where each country in Europe basically produces there own, so handing over what 10, 15, 20 different rifles from willing countries would be a mess. Which is why Europe needs agreements to streamline and specialize around one weapon. This would take time, and I was surprised/disappointed there was no thinking on this from the talk when you have people like Mike Martin bringing these points up. These were the type of actions not words we really need, addressing practical known issues.
Then there are areas where countries can't share info and it makes sense to fund one or two nations to specialise. Planes (think France is leader), tanks (think Germany is leader), subs (think UK is leader, but don't see the need for this ATM for this conflict) etc. Again points that Mike Martin has made domestically. Ramping up production here would be more challenging. But how many of these things do they need quickly.
We have replacements for some weapons (storm shadows), but not all ranges. We still don't even have Germany committed to sending certain ranged weapons (Taurus). So these can come into play, if Europe is genuinely willing. Europe seemed to still be calculating with some sort of US involvement, so we still need a seismic shift here.
There may be certain nations we can source from in the short term. Eg, South Korea. They are not happy with North Korea being involved in the war. But I'm not sure on what coverage they could provide and how much of a shortfall they'd be able to cover.
Even if the US don't cease weapons supply through what we purchase, they could cease software upgrades or other crucial things like this. How would this impact our short-term effort. I guess not a huge amount, I think this would be a longer term consideration.
Sorry, I'm far from an expert on this, just doing my best to rehash what I've heard over the past 6m-1y. I expect Churchman and a couple others would have a better sense, from what they have written prior. But 6m is doable and then I think we are painfully short and I don't see the speed of thought and action currently needed to plug gaps like this effectively. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Ukraine would collapse, but it will be a painful slope.
We cannot allow Ukraine industrial defense base to fall into Russian hands. At this point it would be catastrophic for European security and for national security.
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:08 - Mar 4 with 1388 views | Churchman |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 14:51 - Mar 4 by bluejacko |
Good summary, I don’t think there will be much inertia from the Baltics and Finland re defence they know what’s at stake! It’s the likes of Belgium that is the worry,isn’t the bulk of the 300 b frozen assets there? To be frank they don’t like saying boo to a goose so IF they decided to use those assets would Belgium actually release them🤔
Vance was at it again with comments about 20,000 troops from “random” armies that haven’t fought a war in 30/40 yrs. forming a peacekeeping force obviously he didn’t take much notice of these random armies in Iraq and Afghanistan did he the prat! |
Agree re Baltic nations and Finland. Add in Poland of course too. I was thinking more of Spain and Portugal as much as anybody else. Regarding frozen assets I sadly have no idea where they are, how they are controlled if that’s the right word or what the implications are of using them.
Regarding Vance, according to Sky, he ‘told Fox News a US stake in Ukraine's economy was a "better security guarantee than 20,000 troops from some random country that hasn't fought a war in 30 or 40 years".
He can only mean France and U.K. as no other country has been named as offering boots on the ground support in Ukraine yet. Aside from the nonsense of it, it’s an insult to the memory of those who sacrificed their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Perhaps he’d like to pay a visit to Horseguards on Remembrance Sunday and meet some of the bereaved, widows, parents families of those who lost their lives ‘not having fought a war in 30 or 40 years’. Mind you, I doubt he’d dare. | | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:30 - Mar 4 with 1334 views | LeoMuff |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:08 - Mar 4 by Churchman |
Agree re Baltic nations and Finland. Add in Poland of course too. I was thinking more of Spain and Portugal as much as anybody else. Regarding frozen assets I sadly have no idea where they are, how they are controlled if that’s the right word or what the implications are of using them.
Regarding Vance, according to Sky, he ‘told Fox News a US stake in Ukraine's economy was a "better security guarantee than 20,000 troops from some random country that hasn't fought a war in 30 or 40 years".
He can only mean France and U.K. as no other country has been named as offering boots on the ground support in Ukraine yet. Aside from the nonsense of it, it’s an insult to the memory of those who sacrificed their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Perhaps he’d like to pay a visit to Horseguards on Remembrance Sunday and meet some of the bereaved, widows, parents families of those who lost their lives ‘not having fought a war in 30 or 40 years’. Mind you, I doubt he’d dare. |
They are swaggering around like kings of the planet, completely disrespectful to everyone apart from Russia and Israel.
I really think we unfortunately have to keep buttering up the Donald, tell Ukraine not to sign that mineral deal, use the £350m frozen assets to arm Ukraine as best we can and if Russia won’t talk peace with a deal that returns Ukraine to pre war keep on fighting, while still trying to pull the Donald in for arms supply or security guarantees to get things properly done.
I can see this going quite pear shaped unfortunately as Trump will throw all toys out of the pram if he can’t get peace sorted soon as he will look a bit silly. |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:32 - Mar 4 with 1329 views | DJR |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 14:51 - Mar 4 by bluejacko |
Good summary, I don’t think there will be much inertia from the Baltics and Finland re defence they know what’s at stake! It’s the likes of Belgium that is the worry,isn’t the bulk of the 300 b frozen assets there? To be frank they don’t like saying boo to a goose so IF they decided to use those assets would Belgium actually release them🤔
Vance was at it again with comments about 20,000 troops from “random” armies that haven’t fought a war in 30/40 yrs. forming a peacekeeping force obviously he didn’t take much notice of these random armies in Iraq and Afghanistan did he the prat! |
I think there are international legal issues with respect to what can be done with the frozen assets, and this is something that France is concerned about.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/france-opposes-seizing-frozen-russian-093521260.html?
[Post edited 4 Mar 15:33]
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:39 - Mar 4 with 1288 views | giant_stow |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:08 - Mar 4 by Churchman |
Agree re Baltic nations and Finland. Add in Poland of course too. I was thinking more of Spain and Portugal as much as anybody else. Regarding frozen assets I sadly have no idea where they are, how they are controlled if that’s the right word or what the implications are of using them.
Regarding Vance, according to Sky, he ‘told Fox News a US stake in Ukraine's economy was a "better security guarantee than 20,000 troops from some random country that hasn't fought a war in 30 or 40 years".
He can only mean France and U.K. as no other country has been named as offering boots on the ground support in Ukraine yet. Aside from the nonsense of it, it’s an insult to the memory of those who sacrificed their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Perhaps he’d like to pay a visit to Horseguards on Remembrance Sunday and meet some of the bereaved, widows, parents families of those who lost their lives ‘not having fought a war in 30 or 40 years’. Mind you, I doubt he’d dare. |
Vance has even pisse Nige off with that one. Its very insulting an revealing too |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:45 - Mar 4 with 1256 views | DJR |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:39 - Mar 4 by giant_stow |
Vance has even pisse Nige off with that one. Its very insulting an revealing too |
I saw it reported somewhere that he had seen the direction of the wind, so it is perhaps for debate as to whether he is really pissed off. | | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:53 - Mar 4 with 1208 views | giant_stow |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:45 - Mar 4 by DJR |
I saw it reported somewhere that he had seen the direction of the wind, so it is perhaps for debate as to whether he is really pissed off. |
Very true | |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:56 - Mar 4 with 1200 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:45 - Mar 4 by DJR |
I saw it reported somewhere that he had seen the direction of the wind, so it is perhaps for debate as to whether he is really pissed off. |
He's not really on my radar regarding Ukraine and the military. Either way, if he's taking a bi-partisan approach I appreciate and respect that. We don't need unnecessary divisions on something so critical. | |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:56 - Mar 4 with 1196 views | Mullet |
Is there any merit to reports he’s about to cause a recession with his tariffs?
People seem to barely recall Farage was on Russia Today, funded by Banks and has been desperate to align with Trump.
The Russian tentacles wrapped around Tories, the far right and the media in this country is something we are sleeping on it seems. People being distracted with “boat people” nonsense is intentional it seems.
Does feel like an escalation in war is inevitable doesn’t it? |  |
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| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:57 - Mar 4 with 1188 views | bluejacko |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:45 - Mar 4 by DJR |
I saw it reported somewhere that he had seen the direction of the wind, so it is perhaps for debate as to whether he is really pissed off. |
Now then don’t shoot me,I didn’t vote for them,but I did send an email to reform saying if they couldn’t see whats in front of their face with trump and pootin they can write off a load of votes! | | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 16:10 - Mar 4 with 1143 views | StokieBlue |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 15:56 - Mar 4 by Mullet |
Is there any merit to reports he’s about to cause a recession with his tariffs?
People seem to barely recall Farage was on Russia Today, funded by Banks and has been desperate to align with Trump.
The Russian tentacles wrapped around Tories, the far right and the media in this country is something we are sleeping on it seems. People being distracted with “boat people” nonsense is intentional it seems.
Does feel like an escalation in war is inevitable doesn’t it? |
Definitely some merit, US GDP is predicted to be down 2.8% on an annualised basis over the first quarter. All the gains in the markets from his election have been erased.
Alongside that things aren't getting cheaper in the US but actually more expensive so the reason many gave for voting for him has thus far not happened.
SB |  | | |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 16:25 - Mar 4 with 1096 views | giant_stow |
| US pulls military aid to Ukraine... on 16:10 - Mar 4 by StokieBlue |
Definitely some merit, US GDP is predicted to be down 2.8% on an annualised basis over the first quarter. All the gains in the markets from his election have been erased.
Alongside that things aren't getting cheaper in the US but actually more expensive so the reason many gave for voting for him has thus far not happened.
SB |
There's also the possible impact of sacking a load of federal employees.
Think that 2.8% prediction was sed on a really bad recent consumed confidence survey, so it might already be possible to conclude Trump and Musk are giving Americans the willies. | |
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