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I see the rise of Tate and Peterson and the impact they are having on young men and what masculinity looks like and it scares me, this is before I even watch adolescence.
One of the things that I'm conscious of is that there are very few male role models who counter the things that they say and fewer still that will appeal to young lads of today, Louis Threoux for example, a great advocate but how many 14, 15 year old lads know who is he is, let alone listen to him?
I think about who I looked up to as a teenager and who current teenagers might listen too and I keep comming back to footballers.
I see very little on this from clubs, filled with male role models and I feel that they would be a great staring point for trying to redress some of the bile that is spewed by such people.
This might sound pie in the sky but I think there had ro be a beginning, and I think with our club, the community and the work that goes into that, it would seem as good a place as any. Maybe I'm old and out of touch (well i am) but if I was a teenage lad and Liam Delap, Omari or someone was on socials and other places speaking about how wrong this view is id take notice.
I'm inclined to email the club and ask them if they can do some messaging around the subject, partner with suitable charities and maybe from there more would follow.
Anyone have any idea who is best to email?
I appreciate I might be on a wild goose chase here but from those I know in teaching or similar roles working with young lads I really feel that is becoming more and more or anything issue with not enough push back on the narrative from those that might be listened to.
Any suggestions as to anyone I can try contacting at the club are much appreciated.
It is a great idea although I suspect there would be resistance to anything that’s seen as political. Speaking out against the ‘alpha male’ bollox spouted by the likes of Tate would probably be off limits for that reason unfortunately, as the issue has been politicised. Not that I don’t think it’s needed, but the club would be cautious (much as they’re quite neutral over say Morsy’s comments regarding Palestine).
Certainly worth exploring though, as the players already do work in this area (as per my link above).
I really don't think it's right to lump Peterson in with the likes of Tate on this issue.
Peterson's message to young men like that is "shape up, develop yourself, be better, become someone worthy of a relationship"
I was watching some vids of an Irish academic, one of the leading experts on Incel culture, he advises the government. He's doing a lot of interview rounds at the moment given the attention this is getting. He said the same himself, in fact reckoned Peterson had changed his life for the better.
Edit - for example see this link where he discusses Adolescence
[Post edited 1 Apr 9:16]
Peterson should absolutely be lumped in there. He supports his unpleasantness with pseudo intellectual nonsense but feeds the same base principles to the more discerning lidtener.
Peterson should absolutely be lumped in there. He supports his unpleasantness with pseudo intellectual nonsense but feeds the same base principles to the more discerning lidtener.
Yep, you could maybe have said he didn't deserve to be included 5(?) years ago when he was more serious and consistent but he id fully on the grift now and has been for some time
An excellent idea. Doubly so in that it gets them out of the house and into a (face-to-face) social environmnet.
One of the driving factors of incel culture is youths who are unable or unwilling to play the "game" of teenage interaction, peer pressure and running with the herd. Maybe they're socially or physically awkward, victims of bullying, later developers, more independently minded, or whatever. Being outside the "game" makes it harder to form relationships, which at that age are based a lot on popularity and/or social conforming*.
Media and culture lies to youngsters that if they aren't having lots of sex all the time, they are not "normal"**. If you find it hard to form relationships, or are outside the "game" you fall into the latter category. Which layers more pressure onto those who are already feeling isolated.
Some rise above all that and walk their own path. But many retreat into themselves, interacting in a socially safer way, behind the shield of a keyboard where they can pretend to be who they want and there is no social framework to provide guidance. There, they are likely to meet other similar people and end up mutually stoking each other's fears and grievances. Not to mention the unscrupulous who are farming that for clicks and income.
Get them out into an unthreatening and non-judgemental social situation and there is a chance of breaking the cycle, showing them an individually-based self-worth and getting them to climb back out of the rabbit-hole.
* Even the idea of a "rebel bad-boy" is a social stereotype.
** Edit: This message also warps relationships, pushing youngsters into doing stuff too quickly, or going beyond what they're comfortable with.
There are so many primary schools where there are no/very few male teachers - an area that something needs to be done I think.
That's not a criticism of female teachers who do a wonderful job too - but if we're talking about young boys being able to see male role models, school is where they are the most of the time and many won't ever see one.
And before anyone says - also agree that men are overrepresented when it comes to senior leadership positions.
Winner of the "most obvious troll ever seen on here" award, sponsored by _Clive_Baker
I really don't think it's right to lump Peterson in with the likes of Tate on this issue.
Peterson's message to young men like that is "shape up, develop yourself, be better, become someone worthy of a relationship"
I was watching some vids of an Irish academic, one of the leading experts on Incel culture, he advises the government. He's doing a lot of interview rounds at the moment given the attention this is getting. He said the same himself, in fact reckoned Peterson had changed his life for the better.
Edit - for example see this link where he discusses Adolescence
[Post edited 1 Apr 9:16]
That may have been his message originally, I don't really know, but as others have said he is as bad as any of them lot now, the majority of his content/interviews now focus on attacking what he deems 'woke culture', attacking feminists, trans people, denying climate change. He uses big words and sounds intellectual, but is pretty much spreading hate and lies every time he opens his mouth, all of it pretty much aimed at angry young men/boys.
I really don't think it's right to lump Peterson in with the likes of Tate on this issue.
Peterson's message to young men like that is "shape up, develop yourself, be better, become someone worthy of a relationship"
I was watching some vids of an Irish academic, one of the leading experts on Incel culture, he advises the government. He's doing a lot of interview rounds at the moment given the attention this is getting. He said the same himself, in fact reckoned Peterson had changed his life for the better.
Edit - for example see this link where he discusses Adolescence
[Post edited 1 Apr 9:16]
While I don't agree with much of what Peterson espouses, I want to echo your point that it is completely inappropriate to lump him in with Tate in a discussion of incel culture.
Peterson has a moral basis to his worldview, and in no way encourages a blurring of the lines of consent, let alone the misogynistic culture of sex with physical and emotional assertion that Tate promotes, or the systematic abuse of women that he has been accused of in Romania.
While I don't agree with much of what Peterson espouses, I want to echo your point that it is completely inappropriate to lump him in with Tate in a discussion of incel culture.
Peterson has a moral basis to his worldview, and in no way encourages a blurring of the lines of consent, let alone the misogynistic culture of sex with physical and emotional assertion that Tate promotes, or the systematic abuse of women that he has been accused of in Romania.
What moral basis? And why does that make misogyny okay? Its the same core message dressed up to look intellectual. The man is far less bright than he thinks. Not honest either in discussioons. Prone to appalling word salads to avoid giving straight answers which would expise him.
As an aside I think Kieran McKenna exemplifies everything that young boys, and girls for that matter, should aspire too in his decency and respect for players and referees (especially when he thinks they are wrong).
Plenty of players, current and recent do too, but McK is very much the figurehead of the club in that regard.
What moral basis? And why does that make misogyny okay? Its the same core message dressed up to look intellectual. The man is far less bright than he thinks. Not honest either in discussioons. Prone to appalling word salads to avoid giving straight answers which would expise him.
Incel "culture" is formulated on the belief that men have a right to demand (or take by force) sex from women. Andrew Tate's career can be said to feed this, as it includes derogatory, belittling remarks during sex, and, at the very least, role play of sexual aggression which normalises sexual violence.
Peterson's work includes some conservative views on traditional Male and Female roles, but unless you can point to specific quotes advocating physical assertion to take "sexual rights" then you are on thin ice legally suggesting he is supportive of incel "culture".
Incel "culture" is formulated on the belief that men have a right to demand (or take by force) sex from women. Andrew Tate's career can be said to feed this, as it includes derogatory, belittling remarks during sex, and, at the very least, role play of sexual aggression which normalises sexual violence.
Peterson's work includes some conservative views on traditional Male and Female roles, but unless you can point to specific quotes advocating physical assertion to take "sexual rights" then you are on thin ice legally suggesting he is supportive of incel "culture".
There was the whole thing about enforced monogomy in regards to incel culture.
Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married.
“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.”
Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end.
“Half the men fail,” he says, meaning that they don’t procreate. “And no one cares about the men who fail.”
I laugh, because it is absurd.
“You’re laughing about them,” he says, giving me a disappointed look. “That’s because you’re female.”
But aside from interventions that would redistribute sex, Mr. Peterson is staunchly against what he calls “equality of outcomes,” or efforts to equalize society. He usually calls them pathological or evil.
There was the whole thing about enforced monogomy in regards to incel culture.
Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married.
“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.”
Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end.
“Half the men fail,” he says, meaning that they don’t procreate. “And no one cares about the men who fail.”
I laugh, because it is absurd.
“You’re laughing about them,” he says, giving me a disappointed look. “That’s because you’re female.”
But aside from interventions that would redistribute sex, Mr. Peterson is staunchly against what he calls “equality of outcomes,” or efforts to equalize society. He usually calls them pathological or evil.
So supportive? Maybe not, but his "solution", if you can even call it that, is gross.
[Post edited 1 Apr 12:08]
The most generous (to Petersen) interpretation you could give to those words is that they are incel adjacent. I can't really see much of an argument to the contrary. It repeats the notion that left to their own devices, women will choose men who appeal to them rather than sweaty bedroom masturbators, and suggests women should basically be forced to be with sweaty bedroom masturbators so they don't act on their violent fantasies. It's appalling stuff.
It is a great idea although I suspect there would be resistance to anything that’s seen as political. Speaking out against the ‘alpha male’ bollox spouted by the likes of Tate would probably be off limits for that reason unfortunately, as the issue has been politicised. Not that I don’t think it’s needed, but the club would be cautious (much as they’re quite neutral over say Morsy’s comments regarding Palestine).
Certainly worth exploring though, as the players already do work in this area (as per my link above).
You don't necessarily need to speak out against Tate etc., just promote the positive.
Incel "culture" is formulated on the belief that men have a right to demand (or take by force) sex from women. Andrew Tate's career can be said to feed this, as it includes derogatory, belittling remarks during sex, and, at the very least, role play of sexual aggression which normalises sexual violence.
Peterson's work includes some conservative views on traditional Male and Female roles, but unless you can point to specific quotes advocating physical assertion to take "sexual rights" then you are on thin ice legally suggesting he is supportive of incel "culture".
Incel culture is not just the belief that men have a right to demand sex from women, that is the extreme end of it, but it is also just the belief amongst certain young men that women, feminism, or society in general are to blame for their lack of 'success', however they may define it. Peterson repeatedly asserts that modern feminism and social progress have left men behind, pushing the belief that society favours women at men’s expense which is core to the incel culture.
There was the whole thing about enforced monogomy in regards to incel culture.
Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married.
“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.”
Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end.
“Half the men fail,” he says, meaning that they don’t procreate. “And no one cares about the men who fail.”
I laugh, because it is absurd.
“You’re laughing about them,” he says, giving me a disappointed look. “That’s because you’re female.”
But aside from interventions that would redistribute sex, Mr. Peterson is staunchly against what he calls “equality of outcomes,” or efforts to equalize society. He usually calls them pathological or evil.
Incel culture is not just the belief that men have a right to demand sex from women, that is the extreme end of it, but it is also just the belief amongst certain young men that women, feminism, or society in general are to blame for their lack of 'success', however they may define it. Peterson repeatedly asserts that modern feminism and social progress have left men behind, pushing the belief that society favours women at men’s expense which is core to the incel culture.
Great to see some healthy discussion on this.
To some of the points raised I'd say the following.
1. Most of us looked up to more than just family members. My dad left when I was 3. My step dad was a hole, neither should be role models for anyone and many kids are in similar situations.
2. Agree it is important young lads hear and understand the impact from and on girls/women but if men don't speak up, that limits any message there.
3. I have seen a charity that does seem to partner with some clubs. I'm not sure what that involves but would be s good starting point..
4. This would just be a drop in the well, I recognise that. But there has to be a starting point. Of course it needs to be more than just footballers, many more people but esp men need to be speaking up against the snake oil that is Tate etc.
5. Id lump Peterson in, just my opinion..
Lastly, does anyone have a suggestion as to best to email at rhe club to try and get the ball rolling?
To some of the points raised I'd say the following.
1. Most of us looked up to more than just family members. My dad left when I was 3. My step dad was a hole, neither should be role models for anyone and many kids are in similar situations.
2. Agree it is important young lads hear and understand the impact from and on girls/women but if men don't speak up, that limits any message there.
3. I have seen a charity that does seem to partner with some clubs. I'm not sure what that involves but would be s good starting point..
4. This would just be a drop in the well, I recognise that. But there has to be a starting point. Of course it needs to be more than just footballers, many more people but esp men need to be speaking up against the snake oil that is Tate etc.
5. Id lump Peterson in, just my opinion..
Lastly, does anyone have a suggestion as to best to email at rhe club to try and get the ball rolling?
I think there will be a difficulty with regards to current leadership - without raking over the Rainbow armband thing again, I can't imagine the skipper will be partiuclarly for this because at one point it was noted on here that his Twitter 'Likes' were full of Andrew Tate tweets and he was happily retweeting him
It is perhaps inevitable in a male-dominated society that the problems of boys and young men get so much publicity:. But when it comes to mental health, girls and young women suffer much more than boys and young men but we hear very little about that fact.
With mental health rates in teenage girls on the rise globally, how does the UK measure up? Unfortunately, the numbers are quite alarming.
• By 18, girls in the UK are twice as likely to experience mental health conditions than boys. • In England, girls as young as 11 have been reporting signs of mental illness. • In 2021, 25% of girls (aged 17-19) in England reported experiencing psychological distress. • Between April 2021 - October 2021, eating disorders and self-harm rose by 77%. • 15% of teens in the UK reported self-harming within the last year. o 73% of those teens were girls. • 1 in 10 teenagers in the UK reported feeling depressed o 78% of those teens were girls. • 25% of teenagers in the UK have reported feeling completely unhappy with their life. o 63% of those teens were girls. • Another 25% of teenagers in the UK reported low self-esteem and negative self-image. o 79% of those teens were girls."
As the following article about a CDC report, the problem is much the same in the US but Trump's ban on DEI will no doubt prevent the CDC from further investigating this issue.
Of course, this is not to downplay issues affecting boys but girls don't get the equivalent of Keir Starmer mentioning Adolescence in Cabinet, a drama which only tangentially and rather superficially focused on what might be called incel culture.
It is perhaps inevitable in a male-dominated society that the problems of boys and young men get so much publicity:. But when it comes to mental health, girls and young women suffer much more than boys and young men but we hear very little about that fact.
With mental health rates in teenage girls on the rise globally, how does the UK measure up? Unfortunately, the numbers are quite alarming.
• By 18, girls in the UK are twice as likely to experience mental health conditions than boys. • In England, girls as young as 11 have been reporting signs of mental illness. • In 2021, 25% of girls (aged 17-19) in England reported experiencing psychological distress. • Between April 2021 - October 2021, eating disorders and self-harm rose by 77%. • 15% of teens in the UK reported self-harming within the last year. o 73% of those teens were girls. • 1 in 10 teenagers in the UK reported feeling depressed o 78% of those teens were girls. • 25% of teenagers in the UK have reported feeling completely unhappy with their life. o 63% of those teens were girls. • Another 25% of teenagers in the UK reported low self-esteem and negative self-image. o 79% of those teens were girls."
As the following article about a CDC report, the problem is much the same in the US but Trump's ban on DEI will no doubt prevent the CDC from further investigating this issue.
Of course, this is not to downplay issues affecting boys but girls don't get the equivalent of Keir Starmer mentioning Adolescence in Cabinet, a drama which only tangentially and rather superficially focused on what might be called incel culture.
[Post edited 1 Apr 14:15]
The male suicide rate is ~3x higher than females (17.1 vs 5.6 per 100,000) - so both sexes have their challenges, and men of 45-49 are at 25.3 and those numbers are increasing
I don't think there is so much publicity of mental health of men and boys - it has taken a Netflix documentary to get people talking about it in the mainstream.
There should be a Minister for Men, but when that was suggested it was laughed out of the room by people who should know better. Men, like Women have unique challenges and need someone to look at that and help
The male suicide rate is ~3x higher than females (17.1 vs 5.6 per 100,000) - so both sexes have their challenges, and men of 45-49 are at 25.3 and those numbers are increasing
I don't think there is so much publicity of mental health of men and boys - it has taken a Netflix documentary to get people talking about it in the mainstream.
There should be a Minister for Men, but when that was suggested it was laughed out of the room by people who should know better. Men, like Women have unique challenges and need someone to look at that and help
I suppose the thought is that men have always had an advantage but perhaps that is lessening, although it is still the case that women's salaries are less than those of men, and "female" professions (eg speech therapy which requires 3 years at university) are poorly paid. Indeed, I believe that that is the issue which bankrupted Birmingham Council.
As regards the mental health of either sex, the answer is greater resources, but one issue for men is a hesitancy to talk (whether to friends or other) about problems, something about which there have been attempts to remove the stigma.
If there were to be Minister for Men, it would have to be clear what it's purpose was, given things like pay, sexual violence and domestic violence are much less of an issue for men.
For my own part, I think the position of many young people of either sex is much more difficult than when I was growing up. In those days, there was a greater fit between the occupations available and the level of education. For example, there was roughly the same number of people finishing law degrees as there were legal jobs to go to, in contrast to today when there are many thousands more law degrees than legal jobs. And all of my friends, whether they left school at 16 or not, or went to university or not, have ended up fairly comfortably off, something that will not be the case for many youngsters these days.
I suppose the thought is that men have always had an advantage but perhaps that is lessening, although it is still the case that women's salaries are less than those of men, and "female" professions (eg speech therapy which requires 3 years at university) are poorly paid. Indeed, I believe that that is the issue which bankrupted Birmingham Council.
As regards the mental health of either sex, the answer is greater resources, but one issue for men is a hesitancy to talk (whether to friends or other) about problems, something about which there have been attempts to remove the stigma.
If there were to be Minister for Men, it would have to be clear what it's purpose was, given things like pay, sexual violence and domestic violence are much less of an issue for men.
For my own part, I think the position of many young people of either sex is much more difficult than when I was growing up. In those days, there was a greater fit between the occupations available and the level of education. For example, there was roughly the same number of people finishing law degrees as there were legal jobs to go to, in contrast to today when there are many thousands more law degrees than legal jobs. And all of my friends, whether they left school at 16 or not, or went to university or not, have ended up fairly comfortably off, something that will not be the case for many youngsters these days.
[Post edited 1 Apr 14:47]
Suggest you read Richard Reeves book 'Of Boys and Men'.
The male suicide rate is ~3x higher than females (17.1 vs 5.6 per 100,000) - so both sexes have their challenges, and men of 45-49 are at 25.3 and those numbers are increasing
I don't think there is so much publicity of mental health of men and boys - it has taken a Netflix documentary to get people talking about it in the mainstream.
There should be a Minister for Men, but when that was suggested it was laughed out of the room by people who should know better. Men, like Women have unique challenges and need someone to look at that and help
Just as an important point of order, we don't have a Minister for women. We have a Minister for women and equalities which covers a multitude of issues
With regards to men's mental health there were previous ministerial roles directly related to suicide prevention. It doesn't seem like there are any direct ministerial roles linked to it any more but I don't believe a minister for men is the right way forward
Suggest you read Richard Reeves book 'Of Boys and Men'.
I have had a quick look at the website for his American Institute for Boys and Men but don't have the time to delve in depth.
Obviously it relates to America, which might not be on all fours with the UK, but does he offer policy solutions for the problems he highlights?
I might add that Wikipedia, in connection with his book, says that some argue that the issues he addresses in education, employment, and family life are broad societal problems rather than specifically male ones.
And I don't suppose some on the right would like his focus on Black boys.
I suppose the thought is that men have always had an advantage but perhaps that is lessening, although it is still the case that women's salaries are less than those of men, and "female" professions (eg speech therapy which requires 3 years at university) are poorly paid. Indeed, I believe that that is the issue which bankrupted Birmingham Council.
As regards the mental health of either sex, the answer is greater resources, but one issue for men is a hesitancy to talk (whether to friends or other) about problems, something about which there have been attempts to remove the stigma.
If there were to be Minister for Men, it would have to be clear what it's purpose was, given things like pay, sexual violence and domestic violence are much less of an issue for men.
For my own part, I think the position of many young people of either sex is much more difficult than when I was growing up. In those days, there was a greater fit between the occupations available and the level of education. For example, there was roughly the same number of people finishing law degrees as there were legal jobs to go to, in contrast to today when there are many thousands more law degrees than legal jobs. And all of my friends, whether they left school at 16 or not, or went to university or not, have ended up fairly comfortably off, something that will not be the case for many youngsters these days.
[Post edited 1 Apr 14:47]
I think your second paragraph gets to the nub of the point, that whilst young people are struggling and need help, the help needed is on the main different for the sexes, even if everyone won't fit into those boxes perfectly
There isn't an overarching solution to bad mental health, and certainly isn't one which is going to be equally valid to the average girl as it is the average boy - sometimes a push for equality [which is correct if talking about opportunity and hopefully outcome] can miss so much out about the journeys people on to get there.
I don't disagree with the last para, even when not looking at jobs and career prospects and just at a social side over the last 20 years.....the world has become more insular, more specialist so people spend more time with their hobbies and are encouraged to find their own interests and a lot of time this leads to solitude as people's niche interest can be so niche that their friends all become people on other sides of the town/county/country/world.....I guess I'm fortunate that my descent into social media/hobbies/main interest is ITFC and I go to nearly every game, and have made lots of new friends, or reacquainted with old friends, along the way with it.......I guess most interests close down more actual socialising rather than add to it......
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