| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 19:39 - Apr 6 with 1323 views | J2BLUE |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 19:38 - Apr 6 by _clive_baker_ |
It was an open goal tbf, someone had to tap it in |
Completely agree. |  |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 21:32 - Apr 6 with 1250 views | MattinLondon |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 11:17 - Apr 6 by stonojnr |
you literally cant force a horse to do anything it doesnt want to do, half a ton of animal if it doesnt want to jump a fence, it wont, if youd ever handled horses, youd know that. |
If that’s the case why do jockeys use whips on their horses? |  | | |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 21:45 - Apr 6 with 1222 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 21:32 - Apr 6 by MattinLondon |
If that’s the case why do jockeys use whips on their horses? |
I’ve largely stayed out of this thread as soon as a certain poster used the opportunity to attack the gambling industry. And seeing as previously I was told I was as bad as a heroine dealer by said poster, I chose to just read it instead.
However I’ve always thought you were fair in your questions and replies so think as someone with fair knowledge (obviously) of the sport, I’d answer what is again a very fair question to make.
The whip in racing is used for two reasons - encouragement and safety. The actual whip itself absolutely doesn’t hurt. There are videos of people being smacked as hard as possible with the whip and it not hurting at all. It’s a foam padding. We’re not talking about a sex whip here. The noise it makes through the air is the key point. It also is often made in a motion that helps guide the horse forward. It’s something that is used to encourage the horse in the aspect of concentration. These horses are bred to race (it’s important to note this) and many of them actually dislike retirement until they’re found new roles (multitude of options). I get that sounds like something someone in racing would say for affect but it’s true. And the whip is used somewhat as a reminder that ‘you’re a racehorse, you’ve got this’. The second reason it is used is for safety. It’s important that the horse stays concentrated as animals running at 35mph need to know what they’re doing. They enjoy racing (hence the majority of those who fall carry on racing and jumping after they go down). But they need to know where around the course to be running. The whip helps for direction and steering. It’s one of a few devices a jockey uses including the reigns, their hand placement in a race and even their voice.
Theoretically a horse could be whipped 500 times in a race and they still wouldn’t feel anything if used correctly. However it’s limited to 7 per race per jockey because of the visual it gives off (hence your question). . |  |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 22:00 - Apr 6 with 1193 views | Mullet |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 21:32 - Apr 6 by MattinLondon |
If that’s the case why do jockeys use whips on their horses? |
Come on now. We keep hearing about how millennia of domestication and selective breeding isn’t the reason horses bred for racing and jumping, race and jump. It’s their instincts. Except when it’s not instinctive it seems. |  |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 22:17 - Apr 6 with 1161 views | BarcaBlue |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 21:45 - Apr 6 by The_Romford_Blue |
I’ve largely stayed out of this thread as soon as a certain poster used the opportunity to attack the gambling industry. And seeing as previously I was told I was as bad as a heroine dealer by said poster, I chose to just read it instead.
However I’ve always thought you were fair in your questions and replies so think as someone with fair knowledge (obviously) of the sport, I’d answer what is again a very fair question to make.
The whip in racing is used for two reasons - encouragement and safety. The actual whip itself absolutely doesn’t hurt. There are videos of people being smacked as hard as possible with the whip and it not hurting at all. It’s a foam padding. We’re not talking about a sex whip here. The noise it makes through the air is the key point. It also is often made in a motion that helps guide the horse forward. It’s something that is used to encourage the horse in the aspect of concentration. These horses are bred to race (it’s important to note this) and many of them actually dislike retirement until they’re found new roles (multitude of options). I get that sounds like something someone in racing would say for affect but it’s true. And the whip is used somewhat as a reminder that ‘you’re a racehorse, you’ve got this’. The second reason it is used is for safety. It’s important that the horse stays concentrated as animals running at 35mph need to know what they’re doing. They enjoy racing (hence the majority of those who fall carry on racing and jumping after they go down). But they need to know where around the course to be running. The whip helps for direction and steering. It’s one of a few devices a jockey uses including the reigns, their hand placement in a race and even their voice.
Theoretically a horse could be whipped 500 times in a race and they still wouldn’t feel anything if used correctly. However it’s limited to 7 per race per jockey because of the visual it gives off (hence your question). . |
I have a bit of a problem with the notion that the horses enjoy racing and jumping and that they dislike retirement. It's doesn't seem instinctive or natural but something that has been ingrained into them through years of "training". It seems to be humanizing horses emotions to a large degree when if it was a human going through that we wouldn't refer to it as training or enjoyment. |  | | |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 23:10 - Apr 6 with 1096 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 22:17 - Apr 6 by BarcaBlue |
I have a bit of a problem with the notion that the horses enjoy racing and jumping and that they dislike retirement. It's doesn't seem instinctive or natural but something that has been ingrained into them through years of "training". It seems to be humanizing horses emotions to a large degree when if it was a human going through that we wouldn't refer to it as training or enjoyment. |
They’re bred to race. They literally do enjoy racing.
Here’s the grand national winner before racing on Saturday when taken out for a walk and a chew of grass:
And here’s the same horse today the day after the race:
You can’t tell me this isn’t a horse that doesn’t love what he does. He’s happier than any farm horse you’ll ever see. | |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 00:19 - Apr 7 with 1028 views | Ryorry |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 22:17 - Apr 6 by BarcaBlue |
I have a bit of a problem with the notion that the horses enjoy racing and jumping and that they dislike retirement. It's doesn't seem instinctive or natural but something that has been ingrained into them through years of "training". It seems to be humanizing horses emotions to a large degree when if it was a human going through that we wouldn't refer to it as training or enjoyment. |
"I have a bit of a problem with the notion..."
I agree. You've revealed via several of your posts that you know little or nothing about horses or racing. I've commented on aspects of racing which warrant genuine concern that bother me, but you've shown no interest in picking those up at all, instead focussing only on faux criticisms like use of the whip which have repeatedly been shown over several years now to be baseless.
No horse is happy being idle unless they're very elderly and/or crocked (and even then ...). Their natural state is activity & equine company, they quickly get bored (this doesn't necessarily mean racing can be the only activity of course). I have on numerous occasions seen my neighbours' 2 rehomed ex-racehorses galloping flat out alongside each other whilst free in their fields with nothing more on them than their rugs. Whether they were racing each other who knows, but they were certainly enjoying themselves at their own behest, without any human involvement.
I haven't followed racing for several years btw, so your 'back in your face' re hypocrisy doesn't stick.
Whereas you've still evaded answering my & J2's question re whether you're vegan, so I'll draw my own conclusions from that. [Post edited 7 Apr 3:34]
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 06:53 - Apr 7 with 947 views | tcblue |
If a broken leg is "impossible to fix" then tell me.how jump racing isn't awful animal cruelty?
I don't dispute horses like running. But I do not see how their nature would be to have small people on their backs jumping over huge hedgerows.
Nobody would have a worse time if the National was a flat course. Other than those who enjoy horses dying, of course |  | | |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 07:18 - Apr 7 with 919 views | noggin |
If people really want to see horses race, the government should replace high street bookies, with those amusement arcade games where each punter attempts to roll wooden balls into small holes, to move his horse forward. Much more fun than watching The Grand National, if you ask me. |  |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 08:09 - Apr 7 with 855 views | BloomBlue |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 21:45 - Apr 6 by The_Romford_Blue |
I’ve largely stayed out of this thread as soon as a certain poster used the opportunity to attack the gambling industry. And seeing as previously I was told I was as bad as a heroine dealer by said poster, I chose to just read it instead.
However I’ve always thought you were fair in your questions and replies so think as someone with fair knowledge (obviously) of the sport, I’d answer what is again a very fair question to make.
The whip in racing is used for two reasons - encouragement and safety. The actual whip itself absolutely doesn’t hurt. There are videos of people being smacked as hard as possible with the whip and it not hurting at all. It’s a foam padding. We’re not talking about a sex whip here. The noise it makes through the air is the key point. It also is often made in a motion that helps guide the horse forward. It’s something that is used to encourage the horse in the aspect of concentration. These horses are bred to race (it’s important to note this) and many of them actually dislike retirement until they’re found new roles (multitude of options). I get that sounds like something someone in racing would say for affect but it’s true. And the whip is used somewhat as a reminder that ‘you’re a racehorse, you’ve got this’. The second reason it is used is for safety. It’s important that the horse stays concentrated as animals running at 35mph need to know what they’re doing. They enjoy racing (hence the majority of those who fall carry on racing and jumping after they go down). But they need to know where around the course to be running. The whip helps for direction and steering. It’s one of a few devices a jockey uses including the reigns, their hand placement in a race and even their voice.
Theoretically a horse could be whipped 500 times in a race and they still wouldn’t feel anything if used correctly. However it’s limited to 7 per race per jockey because of the visual it gives off (hence your question). . |
The BHA surveyed 1000 horses and asked each horse does the whip hurt? All 1000 answered "Naahhhh", the human conducting the survey assumed that meant No. Hence the BHA have proof the whip doesn't hurt a horse. Ignoring the fact the whip is designed to force a horse to do something it doesn't want to do.
Yes horses will continue to often jump fences after the jokey falls off, but any animal that has been forced trained will continue to do the same.
If they're breed to race, why do they need a jockey, just let them run and jump.
It's all about the betting industry, perfect example being, adding weights to individual horses to deliberately slow them down. It is cruel and not for the health or the horse but entirely for the benefit of the human gambling industry. |  | | |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 08:56 - Apr 7 with 794 views | MattinLondon |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 21:45 - Apr 6 by The_Romford_Blue |
I’ve largely stayed out of this thread as soon as a certain poster used the opportunity to attack the gambling industry. And seeing as previously I was told I was as bad as a heroine dealer by said poster, I chose to just read it instead.
However I’ve always thought you were fair in your questions and replies so think as someone with fair knowledge (obviously) of the sport, I’d answer what is again a very fair question to make.
The whip in racing is used for two reasons - encouragement and safety. The actual whip itself absolutely doesn’t hurt. There are videos of people being smacked as hard as possible with the whip and it not hurting at all. It’s a foam padding. We’re not talking about a sex whip here. The noise it makes through the air is the key point. It also is often made in a motion that helps guide the horse forward. It’s something that is used to encourage the horse in the aspect of concentration. These horses are bred to race (it’s important to note this) and many of them actually dislike retirement until they’re found new roles (multitude of options). I get that sounds like something someone in racing would say for affect but it’s true. And the whip is used somewhat as a reminder that ‘you’re a racehorse, you’ve got this’. The second reason it is used is for safety. It’s important that the horse stays concentrated as animals running at 35mph need to know what they’re doing. They enjoy racing (hence the majority of those who fall carry on racing and jumping after they go down). But they need to know where around the course to be running. The whip helps for direction and steering. It’s one of a few devices a jockey uses including the reigns, their hand placement in a race and even their voice.
Theoretically a horse could be whipped 500 times in a race and they still wouldn’t feel anything if used correctly. However it’s limited to 7 per race per jockey because of the visual it gives off (hence your question). . |
Thanks for your detailed reply. Appreciate that. | | | |
| Just ban everything.... on 09:02 - Apr 7 with 788 views | chicoazul |
| Just ban everything.... on 18:42 - Apr 6 by Bloots |
....all sports, driving, fast food, cycling, booze, smoking, planes, farting, boats, pets, vaping, coffee, zoos, gambling, the internet, hats, television, moustaches, porn, bicuits......
Etc, etc.
Sorted.
End. |
Ban YOU more like. |  |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 09:06 - Apr 7 with 733 views | Mullet |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 06:53 - Apr 7 by tcblue |
If a broken leg is "impossible to fix" then tell me.how jump racing isn't awful animal cruelty?
I don't dispute horses like running. But I do not see how their nature would be to have small people on their backs jumping over huge hedgerows.
Nobody would have a worse time if the National was a flat course. Other than those who enjoy horses dying, of course |
I think exactly the same thing - clearly the jumps are part of the jeopardy and thinning out the field a bit too, alongside the excitement factor.
Maybe people think it's like those birds that sit on elephants and eat the bugs that bother them? Certainly some amazing logic to justify cruelty from the racing fans. | |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 13:40 - Apr 7 with 616 views | Ryorry |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 09:06 - Apr 7 by Mullet |
I think exactly the same thing - clearly the jumps are part of the jeopardy and thinning out the field a bit too, alongside the excitement factor.
Maybe people think it's like those birds that sit on elephants and eat the bugs that bother them? Certainly some amazing logic to justify cruelty from the racing fans. |
I’m no longer “a racing fan”, but the only “amazing logic” I’ve seen on the thread has come from antis determined to repeatedly ignore the *facts* presented. | |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 13:54 - Apr 7 with 598 views | mutters |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 13:40 - Apr 7 by Ryorry |
I’m no longer “a racing fan”, but the only “amazing logic” I’ve seen on the thread has come from antis determined to repeatedly ignore the *facts* presented. |
Conversely those who are in the industry or watch racing ignore the facts that are presented from the other perspective.
Anybody that claims horses are living a natural life is blinded by their views. Horses don't in the wild run around with a fleshy lump on their back, being whipped (which on further reading seems to be more of a noise thing than a hitting thing), being forced to race other horses, jumping over high fences. None of that is natural! Likewise the argument of them living their best life is great until you realise that anytime they go out and race they could break their leg and get killed. Would you want to live a good life but each time you go to work you might be shot?
By being forced to race the horses chances of having a severe leg break increases massively. As I raised earlier (which like you said a fact that has been ignored), horse often come back from leg fractures it's just th extreme breakages that occur during these events that mean they have to be put down.
But I get it, it's people's passions. From the outside looking in it seems illogical that it's allowed to continue, however if you're involved and enjoy it, then you're going to be entrenched in your position. |  |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 14:44 - Apr 7 with 569 views | Ryorry |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 13:54 - Apr 7 by mutters |
Conversely those who are in the industry or watch racing ignore the facts that are presented from the other perspective.
Anybody that claims horses are living a natural life is blinded by their views. Horses don't in the wild run around with a fleshy lump on their back, being whipped (which on further reading seems to be more of a noise thing than a hitting thing), being forced to race other horses, jumping over high fences. None of that is natural! Likewise the argument of them living their best life is great until you realise that anytime they go out and race they could break their leg and get killed. Would you want to live a good life but each time you go to work you might be shot?
By being forced to race the horses chances of having a severe leg break increases massively. As I raised earlier (which like you said a fact that has been ignored), horse often come back from leg fractures it's just th extreme breakages that occur during these events that mean they have to be put down.
But I get it, it's people's passions. From the outside looking in it seems illogical that it's allowed to continue, however if you're involved and enjoy it, then you're going to be entrenched in your position. |
I used to be one of those involved & enjoying it, but changed my mind over 20 years, so it is possible to leave the trench!
Horses have been domesticated by humans & ridden for over a thousand years, a situation that's not now going to change. The bloodstock industry within the UK is also worth billions to the economy. If I were an "anti" therefore, I wouldn't focus on the vanishlngly small chance of it being banned altogether, but on the things that can and should be changed within the industry to improve the horses' lives and which I think are achievable.
One of those things is something you've touched on - a "natural life" - but as I've mentioned several times on these threads, a different aspect of it, ie horses being kept in their loose boxes except when at the races or out exercising for about 1-2 hours daily. In the last decade, more & more trainers have taken to allowing their horses out in fields to run around, play with each other, roll and graze, but still not all do I believe (am not fully in the picture these days), on the grounds that they could get injured - though three trainers I spoke with who were doing it said that it didn't result in any increase of injury.
Another key point for me is the notorious fragility of thoroughbreds' legs. I'd always been concerned at horses being raced as young as two, as it seemed to me they weren't given enough time to develop & strengthen up. When I discussed this with one very experienced trainer & his even more experienced old Dad though, they surprised me by taking the opposite view - ie they thought yearlings & 2 yr-olds should be given *more* exercise, but of a graduated nature, precisely to strengthen them up before they started their training for the racecourse.
The stress factor for horses of trying to win races towards the finish, with heart rates etc. at the limit, is another concern. For that reason, I personally would want weather-forecasting to be a part of the run up to race meetings, with racing that's forecast to be on hot days, or wall-wall sunny days in spring/autumn (as Aintree was this year) having a postponement option until softer weather arrived. | |
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| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 15:00 - Apr 7 with 523 views | Radlett_blue |
| ITV slated for Grand National coverage on 14:44 - Apr 7 by Ryorry |
I used to be one of those involved & enjoying it, but changed my mind over 20 years, so it is possible to leave the trench!
Horses have been domesticated by humans & ridden for over a thousand years, a situation that's not now going to change. The bloodstock industry within the UK is also worth billions to the economy. If I were an "anti" therefore, I wouldn't focus on the vanishlngly small chance of it being banned altogether, but on the things that can and should be changed within the industry to improve the horses' lives and which I think are achievable.
One of those things is something you've touched on - a "natural life" - but as I've mentioned several times on these threads, a different aspect of it, ie horses being kept in their loose boxes except when at the races or out exercising for about 1-2 hours daily. In the last decade, more & more trainers have taken to allowing their horses out in fields to run around, play with each other, roll and graze, but still not all do I believe (am not fully in the picture these days), on the grounds that they could get injured - though three trainers I spoke with who were doing it said that it didn't result in any increase of injury.
Another key point for me is the notorious fragility of thoroughbreds' legs. I'd always been concerned at horses being raced as young as two, as it seemed to me they weren't given enough time to develop & strengthen up. When I discussed this with one very experienced trainer & his even more experienced old Dad though, they surprised me by taking the opposite view - ie they thought yearlings & 2 yr-olds should be given *more* exercise, but of a graduated nature, precisely to strengthen them up before they started their training for the racecourse.
The stress factor for horses of trying to win races towards the finish, with heart rates etc. at the limit, is another concern. For that reason, I personally would want weather-forecasting to be a part of the run up to race meetings, with racing that's forecast to be on hot days, or wall-wall sunny days in spring/autumn (as Aintree was this year) having a postponement option until softer weather arrived. |
Some very good points.
Horses being raced are naturally going to be put under stress with regard to heart etc. Some of it comes from their natural tendency to race each other, but more from the little man on top. But let's remember that these creatures are not pets - they are expensively bought & trained to give their owners pleasure & to provide sport for punters. |  |
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