| PL - 2 tiers 17:55 - Apr 21 with 3315 views | bsw72 |
Very soon there will be a set of teams such as us, Leeds, Sheff Utd, Leicester etc which may have squads too strong for the Championship but not strong enough for the PL as it currently stands. Just wonder how long it will be until the 2nd tier premier league division starts to get discussed again.
Obviously it significantly weakens the EFL and not something I would be in favour of, but you can see the argument start to grow as an alternative to the PL becoming a closed shop with no promotion / relegation.
If the Premier league were to expand to 2 divisions of 18 teams and assuming this season's 20 teams are part of it I wonder what the additional 16 teams would be from the EFL which would make up the rest . . . not sure whether it would be the top 16 from the champs or maybe pulling in some of the larger Lg 1 sides as well. |  | | |  |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:07 - Apr 21 with 3020 views | hadleighboyblue |
Just watching Burnley v Sheff U and thinking how these teams would struggle in the Premier .
The gap is massive , as we have found out . Teams of honest homegrown players are no match for the big spending clubs full of foreign players , who are physically stronger and quicker . |  | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:17 - Apr 21 with 2975 views | TheBoyBlue |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:07 - Apr 21 by hadleighboyblue |
Just watching Burnley v Sheff U and thinking how these teams would struggle in the Premier .
The gap is massive , as we have found out . Teams of honest homegrown players are no match for the big spending clubs full of foreign players , who are physically stronger and quicker . |
Really hoping one of them can stay up though, for English football's sake if not our own if we come straight back up. | |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 18:41 - Apr 21 with 2856 views | Smoresy |
Global and national interest would concentrate on PL1, that's where the huge financial rewards would go, leaving PL2 as a rebranded Championship under different stewardship. Solving the relegation problem, if it's considered a problem, would be better served by relaxing PSR regulations for newly promoted clubs, or providing them with additional league revenue even, but 17 clubs would refuse to support either proposition.
Parachute teams have had the advantage for a long time. They temporarily become the giants of the league. But half or a third of them don't capitalise across two or three seasons and afterwards they're returned to the chasing pack, as conditions aren't conducive to sustaining that wealth without quick success. West Brom, Watford and Nodge are examples of past yo-yoers, who now have it all to do again. | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:49 - Apr 21 with 2805 views | Ryorry |
Hope not, doesn’t feel like it’d be a good solution.
Would rather see something that properly shakes things up, like the NFL system of lower placed teams having first picks of the most valuable players, or a suitable variation of that. |  |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 19:04 - Apr 21 with 2755 views | pointofblue |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:49 - Apr 21 by Ryorry |
Hope not, doesn’t feel like it’d be a good solution.
Would rather see something that properly shakes things up, like the NFL system of lower placed teams having first picks of the most valuable players, or a suitable variation of that. |
Have to think the EPPP has had an impact, allowing the top Premier League clubs to hoover up all the talent then charge the other clubs through the nose to buy them. Or offer a loan so they keep any benefits. | |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 19:08 - Apr 21 with 2742 views | mutters |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:49 - Apr 21 by Ryorry |
Hope not, doesn’t feel like it’d be a good solution.
Would rather see something that properly shakes things up, like the NFL system of lower placed teams having first picks of the most valuable players, or a suitable variation of that. |
It's so very hard to replicate the NFL / College system here. There are very few players in modern times who play professional (American) football without having been at a university/college. The game is well structured to allow players to flow through the system. It is such a complex and technical game that's not as simple as being quick or big to succeed. There is the International Pathway program to bring in talent from other sports, but even then, it's a hard battle due to the technicalities of the game. Louis Rees-Zammit, who was a very good talent in the world of rugby, has struggled to find a footing. Jordan Mailata of the Eagles has made the breakthrough.
Football here is learnt on the streets, playing with friends, and all you need is a ball to kick around, so the barrier to entry is a lot lower, and so the intro to the game is very easy. Jumpers for goalposts? Marvellous.
As a big NFL fan, I have often thought about how you could replicate the system over here, and 40+ years on, I am still trying to find an approach that would work. Now we have academies, you wonder whether a Draft type approach could work, the worst team getting the choice of players at a certain age (16? / 18?), but why would teams then develop these players only for them to be taken away at 18? It would stop the hoarding of youngsters, so there is some value in that. |  |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 19:32 - Apr 21 with 2630 views | bsw72 |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:49 - Apr 21 by Ryorry |
Hope not, doesn’t feel like it’d be a good solution.
Would rather see something that properly shakes things up, like the NFL system of lower placed teams having first picks of the most valuable players, or a suitable variation of that. |
You need an established feeder system which is not associated with the current clubs - in the US they have the college system, we have nothing like that in the UK.
Not sure how something could be created from where we are today. | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 22:11 - Apr 21 with 2350 views | bournemouthblue |
| PL - 2 tiers on 19:32 - Apr 21 by bsw72 |
You need an established feeder system which is not associated with the current clubs - in the US they have the college system, we have nothing like that in the UK.
Not sure how something could be created from where we are today. |
I can remember Gareth Southgate possibly before he was England manager saying the FA would have preferred a regional academy system ideally and EPPP to some extent was an attempt to force that through, be it through essentially PL clubs in the main |  |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 22:22 - Apr 21 with 2309 views | skinnybob72 |
Rather than a PL2 I reckon we will see a reduced 16 team PL - which becomes a closed shop through using play-offs to determine any promotion relegation. Bottom team plays winner of the Championship - and we know that the money would mean the PL would be massive favourites.
The big clubs want less fixtures - so they would love a 30 game league season. That would allow them to expand Euro competitions - or play more glamour friendlies in Saudi, etc - so they could hoover up even more money.
While this is Town's first season in the PL for 22 years it's clear that things have moved on - and not in a good way. Finished 5th last time promoted - does anyone see a Champ side having that kind of first season in the PL again? Nowadays you are marked as cannon fodder straight away! | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 22:27 - Apr 21 with 2271 views | redrickstuhaart |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:49 - Apr 21 by Ryorry |
Hope not, doesn’t feel like it’d be a good solution.
Would rather see something that properly shakes things up, like the NFL system of lower placed teams having first picks of the most valuable players, or a suitable variation of that. |
I think thats an appalling system. Apart from anything else, how can you have an employment system where the clubs choose who they employ rather than the players! | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 22:27 - Apr 21 with 2266 views | portmanking |
| PL - 2 tiers on 22:22 - Apr 21 by skinnybob72 |
Rather than a PL2 I reckon we will see a reduced 16 team PL - which becomes a closed shop through using play-offs to determine any promotion relegation. Bottom team plays winner of the Championship - and we know that the money would mean the PL would be massive favourites.
The big clubs want less fixtures - so they would love a 30 game league season. That would allow them to expand Euro competitions - or play more glamour friendlies in Saudi, etc - so they could hoover up even more money.
While this is Town's first season in the PL for 22 years it's clear that things have moved on - and not in a good way. Finished 5th last time promoted - does anyone see a Champ side having that kind of first season in the PL again? Nowadays you are marked as cannon fodder straight away! |
I don't see it ever becoming *that* much of a closed shop, but if it did, that'd probably end my love affair with the sport. | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 23:33 - Apr 21 with 2146 views | Mark |
The only solution is fairer distribution of the wealth to make it more competitive. If they don't, I wonder whether interest in the Premier League will dry up, and along with it the TV subscriptions. Who wants to watch a league with no relegation scrap, and where the big clubs always qualify for the Champions' League even if they finish fifth?
The Championship is much more interesting this season, and at least the play-offs give other teams besides those with parachute money something to play for. |  | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 00:30 - Apr 22 with 2079 views | Ryorry |
| PL - 2 tiers on 22:27 - Apr 21 by redrickstuhaart |
I think thats an appalling system. Apart from anything else, how can you have an employment system where the clubs choose who they employ rather than the players! |
I didn’t say lift that system as it’s used, unchanged, in the NFL did I. I said “Would rather see something that properly shakes things up, like the NFL system of lower placed teams having first picks of the most valuable players, or a suitable variation of that.”
I was flying a kite for discussion, not presenting a fully worked out solution to the EPl proposing that they adopt it! [Post edited 22 Apr 0:40]
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| PL - 2 tiers on 01:14 - Apr 22 with 2033 views | Ryorry |
| PL - 2 tiers on 23:33 - Apr 21 by Mark |
The only solution is fairer distribution of the wealth to make it more competitive. If they don't, I wonder whether interest in the Premier League will dry up, and along with it the TV subscriptions. Who wants to watch a league with no relegation scrap, and where the big clubs always qualify for the Champions' League even if they finish fifth?
The Championship is much more interesting this season, and at least the play-offs give other teams besides those with parachute money something to play for. |
There was a real buzz from Talksport going all around the EFl grounds for 2 hours yesterday afternoon, genuine excitement and jeopardy, a joy to listen to after what has felt like the artificial world of the EPL.
Our top tier as it is now reminds me of people who acquired their superficial beauty through obscenely expensive cosmetic surgery. Give me people with their life stories and endearing wonky smiles still written on their faces any day. [Post edited 22 Apr 2:45]
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| PL - 2 tiers on 07:02 - Apr 22 with 1799 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| PL - 2 tiers on 19:08 - Apr 21 by mutters |
It's so very hard to replicate the NFL / College system here. There are very few players in modern times who play professional (American) football without having been at a university/college. The game is well structured to allow players to flow through the system. It is such a complex and technical game that's not as simple as being quick or big to succeed. There is the International Pathway program to bring in talent from other sports, but even then, it's a hard battle due to the technicalities of the game. Louis Rees-Zammit, who was a very good talent in the world of rugby, has struggled to find a footing. Jordan Mailata of the Eagles has made the breakthrough.
Football here is learnt on the streets, playing with friends, and all you need is a ball to kick around, so the barrier to entry is a lot lower, and so the intro to the game is very easy. Jumpers for goalposts? Marvellous.
As a big NFL fan, I have often thought about how you could replicate the system over here, and 40+ years on, I am still trying to find an approach that would work. Now we have academies, you wonder whether a Draft type approach could work, the worst team getting the choice of players at a certain age (16? / 18?), but why would teams then develop these players only for them to be taken away at 18? It would stop the hoarding of youngsters, so there is some value in that. |
Spot on - and to add the other big complication with football is the size of the game globally. The NFL model works in part as it is basically the only league (yes there are the UFL and CFL, plus very amateur leagues worldwide but the NFL is the only one anyone would play in given the choice). So even if someone came up with a coherent draft system for say the PL, it would fall apart straight away as any major prospects would likely go abroad rather than say, Southampton
On a related note though, if the European Super League ever comes back on the table I wouldn’t be surprised if that included some sort of draft system…ugh |  |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 08:04 - Apr 22 with 1649 views | heavyweight |
| PL - 2 tiers on 18:41 - Apr 21 by Smoresy |
Global and national interest would concentrate on PL1, that's where the huge financial rewards would go, leaving PL2 as a rebranded Championship under different stewardship. Solving the relegation problem, if it's considered a problem, would be better served by relaxing PSR regulations for newly promoted clubs, or providing them with additional league revenue even, but 17 clubs would refuse to support either proposition.
Parachute teams have had the advantage for a long time. They temporarily become the giants of the league. But half or a third of them don't capitalise across two or three seasons and afterwards they're returned to the chasing pack, as conditions aren't conducive to sustaining that wealth without quick success. West Brom, Watford and Nodge are examples of past yo-yoers, who now have it all to do again. |
I'm not sure relaxing PSR and encouraging promoted teams to spend even more is the way forward.
I think relaxing the 2 premier loans for promoted clubs would help a lot and would be a lower cost option. I think 5 are allowed in the championship, so maybe 4 for a newly promoted club and then 3 in the 2nd season. You could also ban loanees for any club that finished in the top 10 the previous season.
There could also be restrictions on how many players premier league teams could loan out , this might prevent the larger clubs hoovering up players. | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 09:49 - Apr 22 with 1508 views | soupytwist |
| PL - 2 tiers on 08:04 - Apr 22 by heavyweight |
I'm not sure relaxing PSR and encouraging promoted teams to spend even more is the way forward.
I think relaxing the 2 premier loans for promoted clubs would help a lot and would be a lower cost option. I think 5 are allowed in the championship, so maybe 4 for a newly promoted club and then 3 in the 2nd season. You could also ban loanees for any club that finished in the top 10 the previous season.
There could also be restrictions on how many players premier league teams could loan out , this might prevent the larger clubs hoovering up players. |
And remove the "loan players can't play against their parent club" restriction. It's not a thing in UEFA competitions, and it means that the club undertaking the loan has to change its selection for two games per season. [Post edited 22 Apr 9:50]
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| PL - 2 tiers on 10:20 - Apr 22 with 1436 views | Smoresy |
| PL - 2 tiers on 08:04 - Apr 22 by heavyweight |
I'm not sure relaxing PSR and encouraging promoted teams to spend even more is the way forward.
I think relaxing the 2 premier loans for promoted clubs would help a lot and would be a lower cost option. I think 5 are allowed in the championship, so maybe 4 for a newly promoted club and then 3 in the 2nd season. You could also ban loanees for any club that finished in the top 10 the previous season.
There could also be restrictions on how many players premier league teams could loan out , this might prevent the larger clubs hoovering up players. |
That would be a positive step, like redistributing PL revenue to redress the enormous funding imbalance, but as ever such meaningful change would never be enacted due to the league's governance structure. Established PL clubs won't vote to disadvantage themselves, while the FA may veto rules changes but it can't impose them.
Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that the growing chasm between 17th and below will prompt crisis talks among shareholders. It doesn't devalue the brand like the loss of player talent would, or a tumbling Uefa club coefficient. It's the most lucrative league in the world in large part because it has the most elite clubs in any country, with the largest pool of global talent. Lose that and certain clubs' iconic status would protect revenue streams for a period of time but not forever. The financial priority is to keep England's giants competitive with the very best in Europe, rather than to create a more level playing field for new entrants. | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 10:25 - Apr 22 with 1421 views | thebooks |
The clubs are more powerful than the PL, so I think the best solution would be for the Man Us, Man Cities etc. to break away completely and join Real, PSG etc. in some sort of separate superleague. Then we could get on with enjoying football again.
Obviously, that won’t happen, but it’s more likely than the PL or even the government barring petro-states or huge US investment vehicles from just buying up football. |  | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 10:34 - Apr 22 with 1387 views | mutters |
| PL - 2 tiers on 22:27 - Apr 21 by redrickstuhaart |
I think thats an appalling system. Apart from anything else, how can you have an employment system where the clubs choose who they employ rather than the players! |
From the competitive side it does allow bottom teams to rise and keeps it fairly even. That and a salary cap generally means over time all teams have a chance.
Obviously it depends on the coaches, the front office and the franchise owners to maximise these opportunities and like football clubs some teams are historically better run than others. For years Tampa Bay were in the wilderness due to be being a new team, cr@p players and coaches but they have won the super bowl twice in the last 20 odd years. Likewise New Orleans. Whereas historically big clubs (Dallas for example) haven't won it for years/decades. Dallas is the most valuable franchise in the NFL, maybe even world sport.
Not saying their approach is perfect, I've said in a previous post that the draft system wouldn't work, but they have some ideas that could help with parity across the league. Salary cap would be a good start | |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 12:20 - Apr 22 with 1258 views | KidKlugs |
| PL - 2 tiers on 09:49 - Apr 22 by soupytwist |
And remove the "loan players can't play against their parent club" restriction. It's not a thing in UEFA competitions, and it means that the club undertaking the loan has to change its selection for two games per season. [Post edited 22 Apr 9:50]
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never thought that fair on the player. | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 13:57 - Apr 22 with 1135 views | mutters |
| PL - 2 tiers on 09:49 - Apr 22 by soupytwist |
And remove the "loan players can't play against their parent club" restriction. It's not a thing in UEFA competitions, and it means that the club undertaking the loan has to change its selection for two games per season. [Post edited 22 Apr 9:50]
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Also remove loaning players to clubs in the same league. It prevents bigger clubs stockpiling players as there is a limit of how many can be registered for the PL each season. | |
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| PL - 2 tiers on 15:24 - Apr 22 with 1045 views | OldFart71 |
The more Leagues there are the more diluted they become. This season I have absolutely detested the stop start of the Premier League. What you end up with is paying more and more to see less and less games. Maybe you even end up with a situation like in the Scottish Premier where you play each other 4 times. You are already getting a situation where you have a top third, a middle third and a bottom third. Fans become bored and fed up being beaten 9 times out of 10 playing teams where two of the other teams players cost as much as your whole squad. Living within your means and fair play rules mean that the bigger the club the more they can pay for players both fee and wages wise and if you have the necessary financial and legal clout you can flaunt the rules anyway. As I see it the only way to even things up is to penalise clubs depending on their final position so say Liverpool win the Premier League they start the next season minus 9 points, those finishing second, third and forth minus 6 and from 5 down to 10th minus 3 points. The rest starts at even points. | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 12:35 - Apr 23 with 798 views | VanDusen |
| PL - 2 tiers on 10:25 - Apr 22 by thebooks |
The clubs are more powerful than the PL, so I think the best solution would be for the Man Us, Man Cities etc. to break away completely and join Real, PSG etc. in some sort of separate superleague. Then we could get on with enjoying football again.
Obviously, that won’t happen, but it’s more likely than the PL or even the government barring petro-states or huge US investment vehicles from just buying up football. |
It's going to happen. The Americans are all buying up clubs and I swear once they get that majority in the Premier League that is what the aim will be - 39th game, franchising, and all the other nonsense.
Frankly it can't come soon enough. I have never been so bored of football as I have been this season. Soulless grounds with next to no atmosphere because they're full of tourists; half and half scarves; foregone conclusion games 90% of the time; patronising media.
Essentially all of the tradition and 'rules' of football supporting have been re-written in 2-3 decades to favour the armchair fans who now vastly outnumber those of us who follow our team live through thick and thin. Agreed by far the best solution would be for that Super League to go ahead or at worst a closed shop Premier League. And if Ipswich ended up in either (most likely the latter obviously) I think I would probably give up going as it's simply not the football I grew up loving.
BUT - for it to work the EFL MUST strongly resist any attempts for the brands to insert their U21 clubs into it and cheapen the competition or even club-to-club agreements or franchise arrangements. Yes, the best players would disappear to the big league on a regular basis, but is that any different to now - anyone successful at a Bournemouth, Brighton, or Fulham etc. is also immediately poached by the big clubs stopping any continuity anyway. Frankly, though, is there any point in playing these teams any more - I gave a home league game a miss this weekend for the first time in years and instead enjoyed some local EFL action instead of travelling hours to get to Portman Road. Sadly, I have to report it was much more enjoyable - probably shows why Championship gates have risen off the scale recently! | | | |
| PL - 2 tiers on 13:53 - Apr 23 with 699 views | Vaughan8 |
| PL - 2 tiers on 13:57 - Apr 22 by mutters |
Also remove loaning players to clubs in the same league. It prevents bigger clubs stockpiling players as there is a limit of how many can be registered for the PL each season. |
Something definitely needs to be done about the big clubs stockpiling good youngsters. Don't some of the top teams have like 40-50 players out on loan each season?
They can keep them going out on loan until the times come for them to use them, or they realise they aren't good enough and usually sell them for a decent amount.
As for the PL in general, I guess we need to see how the teams going up in the next 2 or 3 years cope. If nearly all of them come down then something may have to change. | | | |
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