| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:16 - Apr 23 with 2634 views | Lord_Lucan |
If you want to be serious…
People died here and it seems people get imprisoned for a lot less these days.
I would say that the sentence is way over the top though.
It’s all a bit tragic though. At what point do you say a prison sentence isn’t justified? What I mean is, are you saying that non violent crimes shouldn’t be inprisonable? |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:24 - Apr 23 with 2599 views | Trequartista |
Definitely, four people died, but I would have thought 3 or 4 years is more appropriate. She'll be out in 5 anyway, possibly earlier with a tag. |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:26 - Apr 23 with 2594 views | bsw72 |
She is solely responsible for the deaths of 4 people, lied about the circumstances, failed to have any of the so called qualifications she advertised, no risk assessements or relevant experience in the conditions or suitably equipment provided.
I don't think a prison sentence would be questioned if 4 people had died in a minibus accident caused by a driver without relevant qualifications, experience or training in a poorly maintained bus . . . |  | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:28 - Apr 23 with 2571 views | textbackup |
Yes, but not 10 years.
As an adult, if I’d signed up to that paddle board trip I’d have looked at the fast flowing water and said I wasn’t taking part.
Sometimes even the ‘experts’ are wrong |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:34 - Apr 23 with 2536 views | unbelievablue |
Instinctually yes?
As an aside, and by no means a dig at you, but I do find the clamour to question legal sentences a bit...strange? In almost all cases there's so much context, information, legal precedent etc. [Post edited 23 Apr 18:34]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:44 - Apr 23 with 2491 views | bsw72 |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:34 - Apr 23 by unbelievablue |
Instinctually yes?
As an aside, and by no means a dig at you, but I do find the clamour to question legal sentences a bit...strange? In almost all cases there's so much context, information, legal precedent etc. [Post edited 23 Apr 18:34]
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Gross negligence is a very wide sentencing parameter - from 1 to 18 years, with term influenced heavily by culpability.
In this case I am assuming the factors would be indicative of category B (Factors indicating high culpability) which carries custodial sentencing between 6-12 years, with a starting point at 8 years. This is for a single charge.
Further influencing factors would then include the fact that it resulted in multiple deaths - this was in effect 4 counts of gross negligence manslaughter, not one.
Finally there would have been consideration for factors to reduce the sentence, of which there were maybe a couple, but the fact the defendent has been reported of showing little remorse and the reasons for the accident were within the defendents full control were key.
10 years is not excessive for being the cause of 4 lives lost through an individual's actions. | | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:49 - Apr 23 with 2462 views | stonojnr |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:26 - Apr 23 by bsw72 |
She is solely responsible for the deaths of 4 people, lied about the circumstances, failed to have any of the so called qualifications she advertised, no risk assessements or relevant experience in the conditions or suitably equipment provided.
I don't think a prison sentence would be questioned if 4 people had died in a minibus accident caused by a driver without relevant qualifications, experience or training in a poorly maintained bus . . . |
youd be surprised when it came to driving offences, because they wouldnt charge it as gross negligence manslaughter, even though manslaughter can be charged for drivers who kill, how low the sentencing tariffs usually are, juries also rarely convict on them either.
which is why this feels a high sentence, when in fact its probably about right in terms of the charge and sentencing guidelines for the loss of life, and responsibility for it placed on the defendent, its the other offences where deaths occur through negligence that are too low in comparison.
in theory it could have been life imprisonment at the max, 20 years is probably the max normally they hand out, she got a discount for pleading guilty, albeit the judges remarks highlighted the lack of remorse shown. |  | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:50 - Apr 23 with 2454 views | textbackup |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:26 - Apr 23 by bsw72 |
She is solely responsible for the deaths of 4 people, lied about the circumstances, failed to have any of the so called qualifications she advertised, no risk assessements or relevant experience in the conditions or suitably equipment provided.
I don't think a prison sentence would be questioned if 4 people had died in a minibus accident caused by a driver without relevant qualifications, experience or training in a poorly maintained bus . . . |
Whilst I agree, at what point should those attending maybe sit back and go ‘I dunno, that looks a bit rough and I’m only on a poxy paddle board’ taking steps to ensure they are safe.
(Obviously don’t wish to speak ill of them, and I don’t know the full ins and outs) | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:58 - Apr 23 with 2420 views | Steve_M |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:26 - Apr 23 by bsw72 |
She is solely responsible for the deaths of 4 people, lied about the circumstances, failed to have any of the so called qualifications she advertised, no risk assessements or relevant experience in the conditions or suitably equipment provided.
I don't think a prison sentence would be questioned if 4 people had died in a minibus accident caused by a driver without relevant qualifications, experience or training in a poorly maintained bus . . . |
Quite. It's hard to think of something that fits the definition of criminal negligence more than not carrying out risk assessments or providing proper equipment,. [Post edited 24 Apr 9:03]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 19:05 - Apr 23 with 2376 views | Swansea_Blue |
I thought that was a bit steep, but then when you read what she did (or rather didn’t do) you can see why they’ve come down on her. Gross negligence manslaughter barely scratched the surface.
But… Without wanting to go full conspiracy theorist, she seems like an easy target. You can be a senior figure I the police responsible for negligent actions that caused the deaths of 96 people and avoid consequences. You can be a government minister or prime minister making clearly negligent decisions that cause thousands or tens of thousands to die and not face any consequences at all.
When there’s no jeopardy or political ‘complications’ justice can be quite swift. That’s not to say this woman isn’t a wrong’un. She absolutely is. People put their trust in her and she was neither qualified or worthy of such trust. |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 19:29 - Apr 23 with 2303 views | RegencyBlue |
Basically she’s responsible for the death of four people because of her gross negligence, claiming to be an expert in paddle boarding when she was no such thing, failing to provide basic safety equipment and not even undertaking a safety briefing.
2.5 years per life doesn’t seem particularly excessive in the circumstances. |  | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 19:40 - Apr 23 with 2251 views | giant_stow |
Our of interest, what's your argument as why prison isn't appropriate? |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 20:51 - Apr 23 with 2069 views | bsw72 |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:50 - Apr 23 by textbackup |
Whilst I agree, at what point should those attending maybe sit back and go ‘I dunno, that looks a bit rough and I’m only on a poxy paddle board’ taking steps to ensure they are safe.
(Obviously don’t wish to speak ill of them, and I don’t know the full ins and outs) |
Probably because at the point it became apparent that they were in mortal danger it was already too late, currents are notoriously hard to read from the surface and they had placed their trust in the apparent “expert” who had claimed to know the area and conditions. | | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 20:53 - Apr 23 with 2058 views | LeoMuff |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:50 - Apr 23 by textbackup |
Whilst I agree, at what point should those attending maybe sit back and go ‘I dunno, that looks a bit rough and I’m only on a poxy paddle board’ taking steps to ensure they are safe.
(Obviously don’t wish to speak ill of them, and I don’t know the full ins and outs) |
I think the dangerous part was taking them over the weir, without instructions or from what I’ve read even telling them about the weir.
I don’t think the victims hold any blame, I’ve been on many of these things and part of it is the thrill of danger knowing that it is managed and you are in the hands of experts. This clearly wasn’t the case and was misrepresented to be so. |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:01 - Apr 23 with 2021 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:26 - Apr 23 by bsw72 |
She is solely responsible for the deaths of 4 people, lied about the circumstances, failed to have any of the so called qualifications she advertised, no risk assessements or relevant experience in the conditions or suitably equipment provided.
I don't think a prison sentence would be questioned if 4 people had died in a minibus accident caused by a driver without relevant qualifications, experience or training in a poorly maintained bus . . . |
You say that but I would question that too. The sentence is living with those facts for life IMHO. |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:05 - Apr 23 with 2007 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:01 - Apr 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You say that but I would question that too. The sentence is living with those facts for life IMHO. |
Well I suppose it depends if one of your loved ones had perished Stevey.
I reckon 5 years would have been about right, seeing that she's a blond milfy. | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:06 - Apr 23 with 2015 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 19:40 - Apr 23 by giant_stow |
Our of interest, what's your argument as why prison isn't appropriate? |
As stated before I think she will be serving the real sentence until the end of her days. I'm unclear as to what positive purpose the sentence serves. | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:09 - Apr 23 with 2000 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:05 - Apr 23 by Lord_Lucan |
Well I suppose it depends if one of your loved ones had perished Stevey.
I reckon 5 years would have been about right, seeing that she's a blond milfy. |
I'd like to think that wouldn't alter my position but also hope I don't have to find out.
Edit....former copper and RNLI volunteer too. [Post edited 23 Apr 21:10]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:22 - Apr 23 with 1957 views | LeoMuff |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:06 - Apr 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
As stated before I think she will be serving the real sentence until the end of her days. I'm unclear as to what positive purpose the sentence serves. |
Surly it’s a stern deterrent to people running risky business without proper qualifications or risk mitigation, or safety precautions. The disregard for peoples lives here was jaw dropping.
Feeling guilty for the rest of your life is nowhere near adequate punishment for the victims family or society in general. | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:26 - Apr 23 with 1944 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:22 - Apr 23 by LeoMuff |
Surly it’s a stern deterrent to people running risky business without proper qualifications or risk mitigation, or safety precautions. The disregard for peoples lives here was jaw dropping.
Feeling guilty for the rest of your life is nowhere near adequate punishment for the victims family or society in general. |
I have to say I agree with this.
........although I think the tariff was too high. | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:37 - Apr 23 with 1903 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:26 - Apr 23 by Lord_Lucan |
I have to say I agree with this.
........although I think the tariff was too high. |
You certainly wouldn't catch any of us lot piling into the back of Luton or transit vans to get to away football matches or festivals would you.
Blimey two days running I kind of find myself in agreement with Texters, this time in relation to personal responsibility! | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:40 - Apr 23 with 1884 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:22 - Apr 23 by LeoMuff |
Surly it’s a stern deterrent to people running risky business without proper qualifications or risk mitigation, or safety precautions. The disregard for peoples lives here was jaw dropping.
Feeling guilty for the rest of your life is nowhere near adequate punishment for the victims family or society in general. |
Presumably the quoted lack of remorse suggests she doesn't feel much if any guilt. Is it possible she does feel guilty without displaying remorse? Perhaps she takes the view already quoted on the thread that the individuals signed up for it and it's just their tough! |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:40 - Apr 23 with 1893 views | bsw72 |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:06 - Apr 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
As stated before I think she will be serving the real sentence until the end of her days. I'm unclear as to what positive purpose the sentence serves. |
I’m sorry but “she will be serving the real sentence until the end of her days” is utter bs and really angers me. When she gets out of prison she will have her life and the chance to rebuild.
Who will really be having to live the rest of their lives with a sentence completely out of their control are the families of Nicola Wheatley, Morgan Rogers, Paul O'Dwyer and Andrea Powell, including the 2 young children who lost their mother. | | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 22:45 - Apr 23 with 1740 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 21:37 - Apr 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You certainly wouldn't catch any of us lot piling into the back of Luton or transit vans to get to away football matches or festivals would you.
Blimey two days running I kind of find myself in agreement with Texters, this time in relation to personal responsibility! |
Steve
Your false equivalence is off the scale baby! | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 22:47 - Apr 23 with 1738 views | StokieBlue |
She didn't follow any of the rules. She wasn't fully qualified, she didn't do a safety inspection.
She's totally culpable, they wouldn't be dead if she was following the law.
It's all very well people saying they wouldn't have gone in but if an "expert" says it's fine people tend to go with that.
SB |  | | |
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