| Talking of migration 15:03 - May 17 with 2756 views | bluelagos |
When do you think the politicians will be brave enough to explain that without sustained migration, we are in deep sh1t given the falling birth rates? Quick google suggests the UK rate is now around 1.5.
[Post edited 17 May 15:09]
|  |
| |  |
| Talking of migration on 15:13 - May 17 with 1778 views | eireblue |
Also need to journalists to start asking those questions of Reform types.
How do you maintain pensions and an NHS with lower birth rates and net zero immigration. |  | | |
| Talking of migration on 15:17 - May 17 with 1762 views | baxterbasics |
Yup, the elephant in the room few people seem to accept.
We need more policies to encourage childbearing and raising in stable homes. It just seems to be getting harder and more expensive for people to do so, particularly the 'just about managing' lower middle class who earn slightly too much to qualify for any state help.
And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem. |  |
| |
| Talking of migration on 15:32 - May 17 with 1723 views | StokieBlue |
| Talking of migration on 15:17 - May 17 by baxterbasics |
Yup, the elephant in the room few people seem to accept.
We need more policies to encourage childbearing and raising in stable homes. It just seems to be getting harder and more expensive for people to do so, particularly the 'just about managing' lower middle class who earn slightly too much to qualify for any state help.
And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem. |
"And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem."
Globally this isn't a myth though. It's not even a myth for the UK, it's just we have commitments to the older population that facilitate a constant or growing population.
SB |  | | |
| Talking of migration on 15:47 - May 17 with 1646 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Talking of migration on 15:32 - May 17 by StokieBlue |
"And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem."
Globally this isn't a myth though. It's not even a myth for the UK, it's just we have commitments to the older population that facilitate a constant or growing population.
SB |
There may not be good answers for some of these questions, but we do need to recognise both sides of the coins.
Overpopulation is not a myth, here or elsewhere. We are one of the most densely populated nations in Europe. We are also a nation which identifies as a green and pleasant land. There is a real tension there, because it is near impossible these days to go somewhere in that green and pleasant land where you cant see a house, or hear a road. It is not unreasonable for people to be troubled and upset by the constant reduction of genuinely green spaces they have grown up enjoying, or by their rural village becoming yet another sleeper town with all the problems it brings.
Equally, the argument that we need immigration to support the ageing demographic and lowering birth rate is plainly true. But there are two big issues which accepting that does not address. 1 it is a massive ponzi scheme. Where does it end? Do we need to find new ways of maintaining our society without obsessively chasing growth? 2 The immigration needs to be at a level and type which does not go too far in breaking up and fundamentally changing, very quickly, our society. |  | | |
| Talking of migration on 15:53 - May 17 with 1635 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Talking of migration on 15:17 - May 17 by baxterbasics |
Yup, the elephant in the room few people seem to accept.
We need more policies to encourage childbearing and raising in stable homes. It just seems to be getting harder and more expensive for people to do so, particularly the 'just about managing' lower middle class who earn slightly too much to qualify for any state help.
And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem. |
There are people that want babies and can't afford homes to raise them. I live in a 2 bed and can't afford a 3 bed, so no space for a 2nd. Time is running out for me. I don't want too big a gap between the 1st (15 month old) and 2nd.
My sister in law is a manager of a retail store, their partner is in an okay IT role. They can't afford a two-bed and are stuck paying too high rents for them to save. They want one. Time is running out for them. She is in her mid-30s.
These stories are a common and my generation has been banging on about housing affordability for ages. Initially we were met with the inability of other generations to recognise the difference, then we were met with ridicule (think, eat less avocados), now I feel like I don't need to argue the point with most people but we still don't have governments that are prepared to tackle the issue in any serious way - reform property tax system, tackle multiple home ownership, regulate rental prices affectively, reform construction (affordability, incentivize less 1/2 bed flat construction), and so on.
As I said in the other thread, migration is a plaster to these underlying issues. We need to deal with these root causes. |  |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
| |
| Talking of migration on 16:04 - May 17 with 1612 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
Never. I naively hoped that Labour would try to dispel the myths around immigration. That’s not happening. Conservatives talked about reducing numbers out of one side of their mouth whilst actively encouraging more as it was financially beneficial. |  |
| |
| Talking of migration on 16:08 - May 17 with 1594 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Talking of migration on 15:32 - May 17 by StokieBlue |
"And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem."
Globally this isn't a myth though. It's not even a myth for the UK, it's just we have commitments to the older population that facilitate a constant or growing population.
SB |
It is a myth. It comes from the book the Overpopulation Bomb. It was argued we had runaway population rates, especially in developing nations. These rates have been slashed. The rate of growth continues to decline.
It talked about population being the root cause of resource consumption and environmental issues. Yet we can see many examples were it is the overconsumption of resources per person that is the issue, and if we concentrated on fixing that we'd be more in keeping with what the planet can sustain.
It argued we would have mass starvation, which while initially correct, wasn't long term. We only see starvation in the manner described when we have wars (Eg, Sudan, arguably Gaza) or other catastrophic events.
We now have population collapse issues in most developed nations with other nations are heading in the same direction. [Post edited 17 May 16:10]
| |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
| |
| Talking of migration on 16:10 - May 17 with 1590 views | NthQldITFC |
| Talking of migration on 15:17 - May 17 by baxterbasics |
Yup, the elephant in the room few people seem to accept.
We need more policies to encourage childbearing and raising in stable homes. It just seems to be getting harder and more expensive for people to do so, particularly the 'just about managing' lower middle class who earn slightly too much to qualify for any state help.
And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem. |
Overpopulation isn't a myth, at least not in conjunction with the average energy and pollution footprint of a human being. The latter is still rapidly rising as we irresponsibly crave more and more 'stuff' and travel, and a function of the product of the population level and something you might loosely term 'standard of living' (in a bad way) is a pretty good metric of how we are destroying our only viable home planet.
The fantasy of perpetual growth and the metric of GDP and international competition is fkng insane on a finite, already massively overloaded and dying planet - short-term increase of population to compensate for the crass and ever-accelerating funnelling of meaningful wealth up to the already rich is now going to be just that - very short term until catastrophe strikes.
We all need to bloody well wake up and face up to the facts that a massive redistribution of wealth, coupled with an aggregate slow down and indeed reversal of what we term economic activity is necessary for us and our children to carry on living any form of acceptable life.
edit: ...then (i.e. with capitalism essentially dead) we might be able to sustain something close to 8 billion mouths, although to be fair it looks like we've already done too much damage for that. [Post edited 17 May 16:13]
|  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Talking of migration on 16:12 - May 17 with 1565 views | StokieBlue |
| Talking of migration on 15:47 - May 17 by redrickstuhaart |
There may not be good answers for some of these questions, but we do need to recognise both sides of the coins.
Overpopulation is not a myth, here or elsewhere. We are one of the most densely populated nations in Europe. We are also a nation which identifies as a green and pleasant land. There is a real tension there, because it is near impossible these days to go somewhere in that green and pleasant land where you cant see a house, or hear a road. It is not unreasonable for people to be troubled and upset by the constant reduction of genuinely green spaces they have grown up enjoying, or by their rural village becoming yet another sleeper town with all the problems it brings.
Equally, the argument that we need immigration to support the ageing demographic and lowering birth rate is plainly true. But there are two big issues which accepting that does not address. 1 it is a massive ponzi scheme. Where does it end? Do we need to find new ways of maintaining our society without obsessively chasing growth? 2 The immigration needs to be at a level and type which does not go too far in breaking up and fundamentally changing, very quickly, our society. |
I didn't read his post with regards to overpopulation in the same way as you have. I read it to imply the myth was there was no more space or that more population wasn't bad for the planet.
SB | | | |
| Talking of migration on 16:13 - May 17 with 1562 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Talking of migration on 16:08 - May 17 by Kropotkin123 |
It is a myth. It comes from the book the Overpopulation Bomb. It was argued we had runaway population rates, especially in developing nations. These rates have been slashed. The rate of growth continues to decline.
It talked about population being the root cause of resource consumption and environmental issues. Yet we can see many examples were it is the overconsumption of resources per person that is the issue, and if we concentrated on fixing that we'd be more in keeping with what the planet can sustain.
It argued we would have mass starvation, which while initially correct, wasn't long term. We only see starvation in the manner described when we have wars (Eg, Sudan, arguably Gaza) or other catastrophic events.
We now have population collapse issues in most developed nations with other nations are heading in the same direction. [Post edited 17 May 16:10]
|
Its not a myth. We are having to build lots more in a nation which is already pretty densely populated by the standards of our European neigbours. | | | |
| Talking of migration on 16:19 - May 17 with 1546 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Talking of migration on 16:13 - May 17 by redrickstuhaart |
Its not a myth. We are having to build lots more in a nation which is already pretty densely populated by the standards of our European neigbours. |
We have a declining population in the UK and choose to bridge this gap by have migration set at a rate that increases our population.
That is artificial population growth. It is a myth. We can choose to stop that with a immigration cap.
Building more is also due to where the jobs are and people owning secondary properties and leaving them unoccupied. One London property and a holiday home in Devon, Cornwall, etc. [Post edited 17 May 16:25]
| |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
| |
| Talking of migration on 16:25 - May 17 with 1528 views | Pinewoodblue |
No way is the global population collapsing in fact the opposite. |  |
| |
| Talking of migration on 16:26 - May 17 with 1523 views | Kievthegreat |
| Talking of migration on 16:13 - May 17 by redrickstuhaart |
Its not a myth. We are having to build lots more in a nation which is already pretty densely populated by the standards of our European neigbours. |
Ignoring microstates, The UK is the 3rd most densely populated country. England is higher, than that, but I'm sure there are subdivisions of other European states that are higher.
Netherlands - 520 people per km2
*England - 434*
Belgium - 383
UK - 277
Germany - 247
Switzerland - 213
Italy - 195
Is it at/towards the top end? Yes.
Is it exceptional? Not really. [Post edited 17 May 17:37]
|  | | |
| Talking of migration on 16:29 - May 17 with 1504 views | Kievthegreat |
| Talking of migration on 16:25 - May 17 by Pinewoodblue |
No way is the global population collapsing in fact the opposite. |
Yes, but people like "Libs of Tiktok" don't like it when that population growth isn't white. | | | |
| Talking of migration on 16:31 - May 17 with 1469 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Talking of migration on 16:19 - May 17 by Kropotkin123 |
We have a declining population in the UK and choose to bridge this gap by have migration set at a rate that increases our population.
That is artificial population growth. It is a myth. We can choose to stop that with a immigration cap.
Building more is also due to where the jobs are and people owning secondary properties and leaving them unoccupied. One London property and a holiday home in Devon, Cornwall, etc. [Post edited 17 May 16:25]
|
You are conflating issues of how population is growing, with the fact that we have issues of overpopulation.
Our population has been not been naturally increasing by significant amounts for a very long time. Did that in GCSE geograph 35 years ago! | | | |
| Talking of migration on 16:33 - May 17 with 1464 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Talking of migration on 16:26 - May 17 by Kievthegreat |
Ignoring microstates, The UK is the 3rd most densely populated country. England is higher, than that, but I'm sure there are subdivisions of other European states that are higher.
Netherlands - 520 people per km2
*England - 434*
Belgium - 383
UK - 277
Germany - 247
Switzerland - 213
Italy - 195
Is it at/towards the top end? Yes.
Is it exceptional? Not really. [Post edited 17 May 17:37]
|
Equivocation....
No one said "exceptional".
When you have to keep building on the rgeen land around people's homes, bulldozing nice areas for more houses, and still have a housing crisis, that is a problem in itself and will lead to people looking for someone to blame. The obvious target is immigrants who have increased the population. | | | |
| Talking of migration on 16:40 - May 17 with 1447 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Talking of migration on 16:31 - May 17 by redrickstuhaart |
You are conflating issues of how population is growing, with the fact that we have issues of overpopulation.
Our population has been not been naturally increasing by significant amounts for a very long time. Did that in GCSE geograph 35 years ago! |
No, you are conflating the overconsumption of resources with overpopulation. | |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
| |
| Talking of migration on 16:46 - May 17 with 1431 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Talking of migration on 16:40 - May 17 by Kropotkin123 |
No, you are conflating the overconsumption of resources with overpopulation. |
No. Im not.
You have literally argued that overpopulation concerns are a myth because the natural population (without immigration) is declining. Which is a non sequitur. The overpopulation concerns are not inherently linked to natural population growth in the UK. | | | |
| Talking of migration on 16:51 - May 17 with 1418 views | Kievthegreat |
| Talking of migration on 16:33 - May 17 by redrickstuhaart |
Equivocation....
No one said "exceptional".
When you have to keep building on the rgeen land around people's homes, bulldozing nice areas for more houses, and still have a housing crisis, that is a problem in itself and will lead to people looking for someone to blame. The obvious target is immigrants who have increased the population. |
If you want to reduce the amount of land being built on, invest in higher population density in cities and put in proper public transport to reduce car use. Make better use of the land. That doesn't mean just stack a couple extra floors on every building, but actually do some urban planning.
If you want to reduce the number of homes being built, tackle things like second homes. There are 100,000s of second homes or empty properties bought for investment, charge the council tax at 1000% on anything unoccupied for more than 6 months or any second property that isn't rented out. Sure some will still pay it, but you'll bring plenty of homes back onto the market that way.
Getting back to population, the issue is simple. If you want people who are just retiring now to still receive a pension and functioning public services in 10-20 years time you absolutely do need migration. Without migrants coming in and giving the country a better demographic profile (i.e. enough people in work to support our growing retired population), those things become unaffordable.
Just to pick up on the green land points, is it actually a problem to build on green land around peoples homes? Presumably those houses were built on green land to start with? Plus if you live on the edge of a town or village, where did you expect any settlement growth to go? In the sky? | | | |
| Talking of migration on 17:02 - May 17 with 1374 views | NIblue |
| Talking of migration on 15:13 - May 17 by eireblue |
Also need to journalists to start asking those questions of Reform types.
How do you maintain pensions and an NHS with lower birth rates and net zero immigration. |
They could start by stopping sending billions of taxpayer £££ to fund foreign wars.
Also the mother of all audits (a la DOGE of you will) on government spending, corruption, general wastage, looking at trimming of government agencies etc
Not reform specific, but I would encourage any government to do all of the above to start a much needed financial recovery [Post edited 17 May 17:03]
|  | | |
| Talking of migration on 17:07 - May 17 with 1344 views | BlueBadger |
| Talking of migration on 17:02 - May 17 by NIblue |
They could start by stopping sending billions of taxpayer £££ to fund foreign wars.
Also the mother of all audits (a la DOGE of you will) on government spending, corruption, general wastage, looking at trimming of government agencies etc
Not reform specific, but I would encourage any government to do all of the above to start a much needed financial recovery [Post edited 17 May 17:03]
|
Public services have been cut to the bone over the past decades. What's actually happened is that people not getting adequate support and services has meant that minor problems(from holes in the road to health) that would now been sorted out by the public sector now end up escalating and ultimately need more expensive solutions rather than basic maintenance. Austerity is a false economy, [Post edited 17 May 17:17]
|  |
| |
| Talking of migration on 17:08 - May 17 with 1342 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Talking of migration on 15:32 - May 17 by StokieBlue |
"And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem."
Globally this isn't a myth though. It's not even a myth for the UK, it's just we have commitments to the older population that facilitate a constant or growing population.
SB |
Yeah, it depends how it’s framed. In order to support our aging population we need more people working. In environmental terms, it’s not so good. |  |
| |
| Talking of migration on 17:19 - May 17 with 1307 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Talking of migration on 17:07 - May 17 by BlueBadger |
Public services have been cut to the bone over the past decades. What's actually happened is that people not getting adequate support and services has meant that minor problems(from holes in the road to health) that would now been sorted out by the public sector now end up escalating and ultimately need more expensive solutions rather than basic maintenance. Austerity is a false economy, [Post edited 17 May 17:17]
|
Quite right.
Take away health services and support, and then act surprised when productivity is low.
Fail to repair roads, and wonder why everything is slower and more expensive than it should be.
Fail to maintain public buildings and wonder why we have court and hospital backlogs, and cant retain staff. etc etc | | | |
| Talking of migration on 17:26 - May 17 with 1274 views | BlueBadger |
| Talking of migration on 17:19 - May 17 by redrickstuhaart |
Quite right.
Take away health services and support, and then act surprised when productivity is low.
Fail to repair roads, and wonder why everything is slower and more expensive than it should be.
Fail to maintain public buildings and wonder why we have court and hospital backlogs, and cant retain staff. etc etc |
And that's before we get into DOGE not actually being anything to do with 'efficiency' and all to do with hamstringing agencies that were investigating Elon Musk and then funnelling more money to him. | |
| |
| Talking of migration on 17:30 - May 17 with 1247 views | textbackup |
People probably can’t afford to have kids due to the cnts taxing the fck out of us for everything.
Whilst handing money to every Tom dick and Harry. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
