| The Davis Invert 10:02 - Sep 2 with 1216 views | FrimleyBlue |
Obviously something currently in the development stages, but im curious into what i'm misunderstanding about how he and Philogene, works any different to a Davis/Broady combo or a Davis/Szmodics combo
All of these further forward players all invert, so im opening myself up for ridicule here, but if Philogene is going to invert as that's what he prefers doing, why are we inverting davis and not just asking Davis to be what he always was and stay high and wide which then gives philogene the space to invert.
I liked the look if it in one of the pre seasons, but since then it doesn't seem to actually bring us any rewards, so just curious what am i not getting with that strategy? [Post edited 2 Sep 10:04]
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| The Davis Invert on 10:08 - Sep 2 with 1149 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
My thought is that KM is trying something new, as the old tactic didn't work in the Prem.
I suspect he is trying to tweak it to come up with something that will both get us promoted and not leave Leif so exposed if we do go up. |  |
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| The Davis Invert on 10:18 - Sep 2 with 1095 views | Wright1 |
Inverting fullbacks has been trendy in high level football for a little while and in theory solves 2 things people liked to moan about with our team. 1) It can effectively give you an extra man in midfield and can be difficult for opposition players to know who should go and pick him up 2) In theory it also means your fullback is less likely to get caught so high up the pitch when the opposition counter.
I suppose it also means Jack Clarke and Philogene can play a bit wider and "get chalk on their boots" etc. etc. like i've heard we MUST do to get the best out of them. |  | | |
| The Davis Invert on 10:25 - Sep 2 with 1041 views | ITFCSG |
David is forced to play this way in order to accommodate McK’s darlings J Clarke and Philogene although they are pretty much anonymous so far. Pre-season was the time for experimentation not now, how many more games and points are we going to throw away for the sake of McK’s coaching experiments? | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 10:35 - Sep 2 with 953 views | ArnieM |
Davis was the goal assist machine at this level , so why the hell change it and effectively nullify Davis' impact on our attack . Philogene certainly do anything with the extra space . Absolutely pointless. If is about gaining an extra man in midfield ...hey ho ...go with 4-3-3 , OR at least try it! |  |
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| The Davis Invert on 10:40 - Sep 2 with 900 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| The Davis Invert on 10:35 - Sep 2 by ArnieM |
Davis was the goal assist machine at this level , so why the hell change it and effectively nullify Davis' impact on our attack . Philogene certainly do anything with the extra space . Absolutely pointless. If is about gaining an extra man in midfield ...hey ho ...go with 4-3-3 , OR at least try it! |
The reality is that this season we have to attack differently this season and KM knows that.
We have played against 5 at the back in 3 of our 4 games this season and with Preston/ Derby that was quite literally a flat back 5.
Davis is simply not going to have the space that he had two years ago.
With this we at least threaten something else and that will I'm sure continually evolve. | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 10:40 - Sep 2 with 900 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
I would have been happier if Leif had been encouraged to do what he was doing, but also sprinkle in Cresswell crosses 20%+ of the time, to keep the opposition guessing.
Cresswell used to take a position just inside the opposition half, and when one of our attacks broke down with players in the area, the ball would be recycled to Cresswell at the first opportunity and he would whip in a lovely, pacy, curling cross.
If that was cut out and the ball broke for the opposition then Cresswell, our fastest defender was able to get back from that position and become the last man to intercept, tackle or shepherd and hold up the attacker and let the rest of the defence regroup.
That tactic with eg Kieffer Moore in there would be unstoppable. In his short cameo Azon looked like he might have the physicality to benefit from it, too. | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 10:48 - Sep 2 with 832 views | textbackup |
Sticking him in there just adds extra congestion to an already busy area.
He’s effective out wide, leave him there |  |
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| The Davis Invert on 10:57 - Sep 2 with 789 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Davis Invert on 10:18 - Sep 2 by Wright1 |
Inverting fullbacks has been trendy in high level football for a little while and in theory solves 2 things people liked to moan about with our team. 1) It can effectively give you an extra man in midfield and can be difficult for opposition players to know who should go and pick him up 2) In theory it also means your fullback is less likely to get caught so high up the pitch when the opposition counter.
I suppose it also means Jack Clarke and Philogene can play a bit wider and "get chalk on their boots" etc. etc. like i've heard we MUST do to get the best out of them. |
That's fine for Jack Clarke who naturally plays wide but Philogen likes to drift in a bit which means we have no width. Plus our greatest asset was David bombing down the line and getting crosses in. We're not getting that now. |  |
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| The Davis Invert on 10:58 - Sep 2 with 783 views | Reuser_is_God |
| The Davis Invert on 10:48 - Sep 2 by textbackup |
Sticking him in there just adds extra congestion to an already busy area.
He’s effective out wide, leave him there |
Totally agree.
He’s not good enough on the ball to be effective in there, need him skinning his opposite number & cutting balls back to Chapli…. Chuba. [Post edited 2 Sep 10:59]
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| The Davis Invert on 11:11 - Sep 2 with 698 views | mellowblue |
just seems like a square peg in a round hole, lacks the nous of a true 10 in that area so I broadly agree, though accept that McK has to innovate and try new stuff even if it is a bit Pep of 18 months ago (and it isn't working so well now anyway). | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 11:17 - Sep 2 with 660 views | textbackup |
| The Davis Invert on 10:58 - Sep 2 by Reuser_is_God |
Totally agree.
He’s not good enough on the ball to be effective in there, need him skinning his opposite number & cutting balls back to Chapli…. Chuba. [Post edited 2 Sep 10:59]
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Akpon and Azon are pretty good in the air, I wonder if we might see him stuck back out wide again getting crosses in
Confused me a number of time Saturday when Leif was sat back deeper than Greaves (who seemed to be one of the most attacking players) [Post edited 2 Sep 11:24]
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| The Davis Invert on 11:17 - Sep 2 with 661 views | Smoresy |
| The Davis Invert on 10:08 - Sep 2 by Marshalls_Mullet |
My thought is that KM is trying something new, as the old tactic didn't work in the Prem.
I suspect he is trying to tweak it to come up with something that will both get us promoted and not leave Leif so exposed if we do go up. |
I get that vibe too - we're doing painful groundwork with the hope of finding a formula that may be successful up there, much as Leif reprising his old Championship role would provide a welcome sugar rush. | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 11:26 - Sep 2 with 613 views | ArnieM |
| The Davis Invert on 10:40 - Sep 2 by Bellevue_Blue |
The reality is that this season we have to attack differently this season and KM knows that.
We have played against 5 at the back in 3 of our 4 games this season and with Preston/ Derby that was quite literally a flat back 5.
Davis is simply not going to have the space that he had two years ago.
With this we at least threaten something else and that will I'm sure continually evolve. |
I agree with you . But what i notice this season especially when trying to overcome these low blocks that opponents put up, is how slow we move the ball about around their 18 yard area. We simply dont make their defence move or work enough ... | |
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| The Davis Invert on 11:38 - Sep 2 with 574 views | tonybied |
The thing I find the most odd about the Leif inverted fullback position and trying to change how/where Jack Clarke plays, is in our first season under McKenna he was telling us that the way we play is not really about systems, he stated we don't have a defined system, it's about the players we have and where they work best (or something along those lines). Since last season, he seems to be trying to shoehorn players into different roles, which don't currently appear to be working for these players. That feels more like getting players to work with a system, rather than, getting the system to work with the players.
I'm not saying McKenna is wrong, these players could go on to be fantastic in the new roles they're learning. I do have doubts that this will be the case, though. Clarke improved as last season went on, but he was still a shadow of the player who graced Sunderlands team. Again, this season, when played out on the left, he has looked as poor as he did at the beginning of last season. |  | | |
| The Davis Invert on 11:44 - Sep 2 with 541 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| The Davis Invert on 11:26 - Sep 2 by ArnieM |
I agree with you . But what i notice this season especially when trying to overcome these low blocks that opponents put up, is how slow we move the ball about around their 18 yard area. We simply dont make their defence move or work enough ... |
This, 100%. There have been a few glimpses of moving the ball faster, which have worked well, but far too infrequently.
There are times when players are also completely static - looking for a ball to play. This isn't helped by another aspect of this - too little movement off the ball at times. It's very frustrating. I suspect that this is down to many still taking on board what they're expected to do in the system, so hopefully will improve with more coaching sessions. The next two weeks are so important, and very disappointing how many will be away on international duty. | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 11:53 - Sep 2 with 496 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| The Davis Invert on 11:26 - Sep 2 by ArnieM |
I agree with you . But what i notice this season especially when trying to overcome these low blocks that opponents put up, is how slow we move the ball about around their 18 yard area. We simply dont make their defence move or work enough ... |
Yeah 100%. Have to be quicker and more threatening.
Too many times has the ball gone wide to Johnson/ Clarke/ Philogene/ Mcateer and they cut back in side and play the safe ball.
The only way you pull the shape out of structure is to play quickly and deliberately. Our wingers should have the confidence they can beat their man every time. | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 11:55 - Sep 2 with 483 views | SheffordBlue |
A lot of the responses to this seem to be suggesting it's a binary thing where Leif will either be inverted all the time or outside all the time. In reality I think what Leif coming inside SOMETIMES does it to make it much more difficult for opposition players to know who to track.
He came inside a few times on Saturday but also made some of this trademark lungbusting runs down the wing. One of which led to Philogene laying it off for him in the box to put a cross in.
The trick seems to be the co-ordination between him and his team mates about who is going where and when i.e. what are the triggers they are both looking for for Leif to come inside. It worked well with him and Philogene against Aberdeen in pre-season and him and Clarke in the first half against Bromley. | |
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| The Davis Invert on 11:59 - Sep 2 with 464 views | textbackup |
| The Davis Invert on 11:55 - Sep 2 by SheffordBlue |
A lot of the responses to this seem to be suggesting it's a binary thing where Leif will either be inverted all the time or outside all the time. In reality I think what Leif coming inside SOMETIMES does it to make it much more difficult for opposition players to know who to track.
He came inside a few times on Saturday but also made some of this trademark lungbusting runs down the wing. One of which led to Philogene laying it off for him in the box to put a cross in.
The trick seems to be the co-ordination between him and his team mates about who is going where and when i.e. what are the triggers they are both looking for for Leif to come inside. It worked well with him and Philogene against Aberdeen in pre-season and him and Clarke in the first half against Bromley. |
No disrespect as 99% of the post makes sense. But this is the 3rd time today I’ve seen someone mention ‘this worked well vs Bromley’
They are a league 2 team, everything should have worked well against them | |
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| The Davis Invert on 12:55 - Sep 2 with 307 views | darkhorse28 |
It was to accommodate Clarke…, we spent 12 months trying to coach a player away from his strengths. Clarke always was at his best with chalk on his boots.
The solution.
Get Clarke wide and accept we got the last 12 months wrong.
Then repeat the mistake, by inverting Leif and mitigating all his strengths!
It’s interesting. Leif has the worst right foot in the division, wand of a left, but awful in his right.., so no it doesn’t make any sense at all.
Classic McKenna.
Getting I. His own way and obsessing about coaching micro details without getting the basics right.
He’ll be trying a new Xmas tree formation on Boxing Day at Cheltenham at this rate.
He really does get in his own way.
Leif on the over lap.., and get the wide player wide to double up .., too basic and simple and effective for McKenna - his priority isn’t winning games.., it’s finding solutions to complex problems, that be created himself!! | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 12:58 - Sep 2 with 294 views | SheffordBlue |
| The Davis Invert on 11:59 - Sep 2 by textbackup |
No disrespect as 99% of the post makes sense. But this is the 3rd time today I’ve seen someone mention ‘this worked well vs Bromley’
They are a league 2 team, everything should have worked well against them |
Yes - agreed. The point I was trying to make was that they've managed to get the coordination right a few times. They now need to show they can do it at this level - I think a few times they have got it right but still lots to do. | |
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| The Davis Invert on 13:05 - Sep 2 with 261 views | Jon_456 |
| The Davis Invert on 11:17 - Sep 2 by textbackup |
Akpon and Azon are pretty good in the air, I wonder if we might see him stuck back out wide again getting crosses in
Confused me a number of time Saturday when Leif was sat back deeper than Greaves (who seemed to be one of the most attacking players) [Post edited 2 Sep 11:24]
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For me, Greaves pushing forward only adds to the issues we’re currently facing. There seems to be no space for Philogene and Davis because they are both occupying each others area. Greaves coming forward then only congests that area even more so.
Saturday was crying out for Davis overlaps but everyone on the pitch stopped moving as soon as Jaden received the ball. No matter how good a player is, he isn’t going to take on 3 players by himself in a low block.
There must be some method in KMs madness but I’m yet to see it. | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 13:20 - Sep 2 with 204 views | londonben |
I *think* the idea is not to “invert” per se, as that’s more when a fullback steps in to centre midfield, which is good if they have a great passing range (Trent, for example). I think the idea is more for Davis to get forward and underlap the winger rather than overlapping as he used to. This should allow him to join the attack from deeper on the pitch, rather than having to hang wide and wait for it. Think the idea is also to open up other attacking options for players like Szmodics - when the winger cuts inside to open the space out wide, like broadhead used to, it cramps the middle of the pitch. Szmodics is more of a shadow striker type 10 who plays off the CF in that space, Chappers dropped deeper and arrived late in the box more. In theory, keeping the left winger out wide should open up more space in the middle of the park giving us more options in attack.
Leif was very effective overlapping before, but I think that was partly because teams underestimated us and left space. It won’t work as well against packed defences and low blocks because that space simply isn’t there. I think we’re trying to open tens up a bit more with high wide wingers to give us other channels to attack in through the middle. My read, anyway. | | | |
| The Davis Invert on 14:24 - Sep 2 with 85 views | blueoutlook |
Inverted or introverted ? He seems the latter in this new system. |  | | |
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