| Playing out from the back 11:56 - Oct 8 with 1543 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
The 23/24 season was a revelation in watching how we developed that style. The combo of Hladky, Morsy, Woolfy, Burge and Tuanzebe/Davis was a huge part of our success. The style was set, but personnel changes meant it caused more problems than it solved in the Prem. However, in the last 2 matches, there have been signs that it’s getting better, not up to 23/24 levels but getting there. Palmer seems more confident than last season, Matusiwa seems to have got it. How do we all feel about it now? I feel that as long as Palmer hits it long as soon as the alarm bells start, it works. There were a couple of moments on Sunday where they tried one pass too many. But mostly this is a very effective tactic imho. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 12:00 - Oct 8 with 1273 views | Bluefields |
It wasnt great on Sunday, O'Shea far to slow in moving the ball to either Palmer or Furlong |  | | |
| Playing out from the back on 12:18 - Oct 8 with 1186 views | Everydayblue |
It only works as "a unit". Similar to us pressing as a unit...
If one person isn't on it. It can put another player under pressure and leave them with egg on their face.
We are getting there again , though...
Of course, the other problem is that teams are discovering how to play against it. Since lots of teams are playing out from the back these days.
I'm ok with us playing out from the back. It's always been a bit hearts in mouths, even when we were at our best.
Sometimes it just can't be hurried or lumped up field.. Part of the patient strategy is so that our forwards or midfield can "get set", for a killer moment..
Whether that be Jens carrying the ball through a gap that's been created. Or a longer pass to a forward in space that's been created. That's my understanding of it. | | | |
| Playing out from the back on 12:27 - Oct 8 with 1133 views | Edmundo |
| Playing out from the back on 12:18 - Oct 8 by Everydayblue |
It only works as "a unit". Similar to us pressing as a unit...
If one person isn't on it. It can put another player under pressure and leave them with egg on their face.
We are getting there again , though...
Of course, the other problem is that teams are discovering how to play against it. Since lots of teams are playing out from the back these days.
I'm ok with us playing out from the back. It's always been a bit hearts in mouths, even when we were at our best.
Sometimes it just can't be hurried or lumped up field.. Part of the patient strategy is so that our forwards or midfield can "get set", for a killer moment..
Whether that be Jens carrying the ball through a gap that's been created. Or a longer pass to a forward in space that's been created. That's my understanding of it. |
Part of the logic of the playing out from the back tactic, is to bring the players forward, and give a bigger gap for those in midfield/up front to operate. It's working when we occasionally hit it long into these gaps more than when we try plan a of threading it through the press. However, again when we get it totally right, which we do probably only 40% of the time currently, it opens up a quick move up the field because the likes of Jens and the wingers have so much more space. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 12:39 - Oct 8 with 1062 views | Illinoisblue |
You’re right that Palmer is slowly looking more assured. First half was painful, though. We were playing out so slowly and telegraphing every pass it was easy for Norwich to press and break it up. Got to move the ball quickly. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 12:41 - Oct 8 with 1032 views | NthQldITFC |
I absolutely loved it when we were doing it so well with Hladky et al. Making League 1 and Champ teams look silly. It even worked quite well at times in the Prem, but it's like opium - great in moderation, but you've got to know when to lay the pipe aside.
I think this mob are getting better at it, but I want to see a balance and some of those balls straight to Hirst were a joy to beyond on Sundee. We won't be able to do it all the time in the Prem, no matter how much better this mob get at it now, so... balance. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 12:46 - Oct 8 with 981 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
They are improving.
Ultimately losing Morsy a guy who did the same thing for 100+ games for Mckenna makes it a big change. Azor is getting so much better at it. Cajuste a little bit sloppy for me atm, I was actually disappointed in his performance vs Norwich (who cares in the grand scheme, we won) but he gave the ball away too cheaply. Long term they will be ok though. Just will take more games getting used to each other. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 12:56 - Oct 8 with 920 views | Basuco |
| Playing out from the back on 12:00 - Oct 8 by Bluefields |
It wasnt great on Sunday, O'Shea far to slow in moving the ball to either Palmer or Furlong |
A large part of Sunday was that Norwich were very good with their press, certainly better than what we have seen so far this season, but they could not maintain it in the second half, and after an hour they looked dead on their feet and were leaving gaps all over the pitch. |  | | |
| Playing out from the back on 12:59 - Oct 8 with 893 views | LankHenners |
| Playing out from the back on 12:00 - Oct 8 by Bluefields |
It wasnt great on Sunday, O'Shea far to slow in moving the ball to either Palmer or Furlong |
He's like that every game but has been getting away with it as people have been desperate to criticise Greaves for everything. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:04 - Oct 8 with 873 views | hype313 |
Hate it, but I'm a dinosaur.
I understand the logic against weaker opposition, but in general I just think it's a little kamikaze.
Even Arsenal and City are moving away from it. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:11 - Oct 8 with 849 views | E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
On Sunday there were many idiots who clearly have no idea about the game shouting their discontent which didn't help the players at all. Clearly they are playing out from the back as that's what is asked and how they are coached. Yet as a collective many fans shout nervously when doing so which is annoying but what annoyed me more than anything is at one point Palmer then hoofed it probably because of the groans and there was a huge cheer, as if the fans know best. It was pathetic and very frustrating. | | | |
| Playing out from the back on 13:17 - Oct 8 with 791 views | Vaughan8 |
I don't mind it, but surely there comes a point where whoever has it just needs to kick it long. I know that's not the plan but on Sunday we got caught out a few times when everyone knew it was coming. I think they had a really good chance from one. A decent team may have took their opportunity. | | | |
| Playing out from the back on 13:18 - Oct 8 with 785 views | homer_123 |
| Playing out from the back on 12:00 - Oct 8 by Bluefields |
It wasnt great on Sunday, O'Shea far to slow in moving the ball to either Palmer or Furlong |
There is a reason he's slow. It's deliberate.
For 'playing out from the back' to work - you need space to play in and behind a press.
He's slow because he's waiting for a player to activate the press, which in turn should activate another player of the opposition to press - from that point you are looking for space to play through and in behind, whether it a pass through to Mats or Jens etc.
You do need to move the ball quickly but, and this especially applies when playing out from the set pieces where the oppos is already set, that quickness comes once the press is started - otherwise, all the oppo need to do is shuffle one side of the other.
I'm going to reply to another post on here, specifically about the Norwich game but it applies to this as well. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:22 - Oct 8 with 767 views | NedPlimpton |
| Playing out from the back on 13:04 - Oct 8 by hype313 |
Hate it, but I'm a dinosaur.
I understand the logic against weaker opposition, but in general I just think it's a little kamikaze.
Even Arsenal and City are moving away from it. |
Noticeable that we improved massively once we started going long and direct against Norwich as they were so terrible that we won every single second ball.
Horses for courses I think. Good that Palmer is improving with the ball at his feet, but Furlong and O'Shea look like a disaster waiting to happen. So we need to be able to adapt and play more direct if that's where we're having more success |  | | |
| Playing out from the back on 13:23 - Oct 8 with 757 views | ArnieM |
There’s nothing wrong with playing it out from the back, if you can apply it and get the ball up the pitch . But since this tactic has been adopted in the game, coaches have adapted and will now use the high press to counter it, so sometimes it isn’t the tactic to deploy. This is my issue with McKenna, he’s slow to adapt, change an approach if at all. All it needs is a mixed approach, then t he opposition doesn’t know what approach we will be using. It’s not rocket science.
Scum had clearly done their homework on our predictable tactic, and made life difficult for us. But it took us until the half time break before the manager changed our system, why so slow to adapt? A half decent side would have scored a couple of goals against us in that game. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:24 - Oct 8 with 752 views | homer_123 |
| Playing out from the back on 12:56 - Oct 8 by Basuco |
A large part of Sunday was that Norwich were very good with their press, certainly better than what we have seen so far this season, but they could not maintain it in the second half, and after an hour they looked dead on their feet and were leaving gaps all over the pitch. |
I've posted on this before but it's important to understand, Norwich used a combination of a high block and a press.
The High Block means that they are generally, as a unit, higher up the pitch, denying space to easily play through (which is why the longer ball is helpful here) but their press was not aimless and was proving difficult for us to deal with because they don't really press the first or second pass (O'Shea or Furlong), where their press was really effective was on the ball we eventually played into the midfield and beyond.
If you watch - they don't really heavily press our back line but were on Kats and Jens super quick if we played through. Credit to them and Manning as that worked really well for them.
This is where we need to get better at using a longer ball, occasionally, to turn a defence (we did this on a few occasions well Sunday). By mixing the approach - the defence will eventually not block so high and will start to drop, if they do, we then have much more space to play through the lines. If they stay high, then we exploit the space in behind.
It was Norwich's combination of a high block and a specific type of press we initially struggled with.
They are not the first team to do this to us, nor will they be the last. | |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:25 - Oct 8 with 746 views | Rimsy |
I'm a fan when it's not overused. At times we seem determined to utilise the tactic, even when it looks dodgy to complete. Sometimes the simple choice is the right choice. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:28 - Oct 8 with 725 views | homer_123 |
| Playing out from the back on 13:23 - Oct 8 by ArnieM |
There’s nothing wrong with playing it out from the back, if you can apply it and get the ball up the pitch . But since this tactic has been adopted in the game, coaches have adapted and will now use the high press to counter it, so sometimes it isn’t the tactic to deploy. This is my issue with McKenna, he’s slow to adapt, change an approach if at all. All it needs is a mixed approach, then t he opposition doesn’t know what approach we will be using. It’s not rocket science.
Scum had clearly done their homework on our predictable tactic, and made life difficult for us. But it took us until the half time break before the manager changed our system, why so slow to adapt? A half decent side would have scored a couple of goals against us in that game. |
And yet, on Sunday, we saw us go long, successfully, a number of times. So to say that KM is slow to adapt is incorrect.
We need to do both Arnie. By mixing the approach - the defence will eventually not block so high and will start to drop, if they do, we then have much more space to play through the lines. If they stay high, then we exploit the space in behind.
Also, Norwich's tactic was not a 'high press' - it's a high block with pressing on the forward pass - it's a really significant difference. | |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:35 - Oct 8 with 682 views | itfc48 |
The issue is when a team goes man-to-man and executes the press well, simply passing the ball side to side won't work - you need a ball carrier to beat their man to create the overload and it didn't really look like we were willing to do that at times although in all fairness it was a derby so players maybe not playing with the same freedom. This is where we miss Morsy although Cajuste more than capable of doing it, just lacking a bit of consistency at the minute. | | | |
| Playing out from the back on 13:38 - Oct 8 with 670 views | homer_123 |
Football is changing - KM has always set us up to play within a framework. There are patterns of play, runs to make, spaces to occupy both in and out of possession.
But within that - he's always given freedom for players as well.
We're seeing, more and more, a more direct ball coming to fore in football and this is to counter the high block and belated press. You're seeing players take up new positions (offside for example but not as they are not interfering with the first passage of play) to disrupt defenders.
I think we have always had a good balance of playing out and going direct - Chappers was never afraid of hitting the channels for Burns to bomb into, just one example. | |
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| Playing out from the back on 13:57 - Oct 8 with 542 views | SheffordBlue |
| Playing out from the back on 13:24 - Oct 8 by homer_123 |
I've posted on this before but it's important to understand, Norwich used a combination of a high block and a press.
The High Block means that they are generally, as a unit, higher up the pitch, denying space to easily play through (which is why the longer ball is helpful here) but their press was not aimless and was proving difficult for us to deal with because they don't really press the first or second pass (O'Shea or Furlong), where their press was really effective was on the ball we eventually played into the midfield and beyond.
If you watch - they don't really heavily press our back line but were on Kats and Jens super quick if we played through. Credit to them and Manning as that worked really well for them.
This is where we need to get better at using a longer ball, occasionally, to turn a defence (we did this on a few occasions well Sunday). By mixing the approach - the defence will eventually not block so high and will start to drop, if they do, we then have much more space to play through the lines. If they stay high, then we exploit the space in behind.
It was Norwich's combination of a high block and a specific type of press we initially struggled with.
They are not the first team to do this to us, nor will they be the last. |
There's a really good tactical analysis here about how Norwich approached it:
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| Playing out from the back on 14:03 - Oct 8 with 478 views | SE1blue |
| Playing out from the back on 12:39 - Oct 8 by Illinoisblue |
You’re right that Palmer is slowly looking more assured. First half was painful, though. We were playing out so slowly and telegraphing every pass it was easy for Norwich to press and break it up. Got to move the ball quickly. |
And something Hladky was very good at was quickly throwing or kicking the ball straight to an attacking midfielder, bypassing the need for the tippy toot at the back. There’s that infamous goal (can’t remember against who) where we broke and scored in three passes.
Hopefully, Palmer can add that to his game too. |  |
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| Playing out from the back on 14:17 - Oct 8 with 402 views | Blue_In_Boston |
| Playing out from the back on 13:04 - Oct 8 by hype313 |
Hate it, but I'm a dinosaur.
I understand the logic against weaker opposition, but in general I just think it's a little kamikaze.
Even Arsenal and City are moving away from it. |
You beat me to it.
The top clubs have all moved away from it, presumably because top opposition set up to counteract it, and like you say its a dangerous game losing possession in the final third.
I got slated last year for pointing out (and it was plain to see) that we were gifting opportunities by trying to play out from the back. The so called risk far outweighed any reward for us at Premier League level. Even Pep and Arteta have come to that conclusion now teams have adapted to play against it. | | | |
| Playing out from the back on 14:19 - Oct 8 with 391 views | SheffordBlue |
| Playing out from the back on 14:17 - Oct 8 by Blue_In_Boston |
You beat me to it.
The top clubs have all moved away from it, presumably because top opposition set up to counteract it, and like you say its a dangerous game losing possession in the final third.
I got slated last year for pointing out (and it was plain to see) that we were gifting opportunities by trying to play out from the back. The so called risk far outweighed any reward for us at Premier League level. Even Pep and Arteta have come to that conclusion now teams have adapted to play against it. |
Think it's less a case of moving away from it completely to just mixing it up - not just based on level of opponent but within games as well. | |
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| Playing out from the back on 14:25 - Oct 8 with 357 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| Playing out from the back on 13:11 - Oct 8 by E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
On Sunday there were many idiots who clearly have no idea about the game shouting their discontent which didn't help the players at all. Clearly they are playing out from the back as that's what is asked and how they are coached. Yet as a collective many fans shout nervously when doing so which is annoying but what annoyed me more than anything is at one point Palmer then hoofed it probably because of the groans and there was a huge cheer, as if the fans know best. It was pathetic and very frustrating. |
I remember precisely the passage of play you're referring to. You're right, a large section of the crowd reaction was pathetic and made me cringe. The team is encourage to play that way, and it is often successful. Yes, it's high risk, no it doesn't have a 100% success rate, but it doesn't need to. And it will become more successful, the longer they practice it. | | | |
| Playing out from the back on 14:30 - Oct 8 with 331 views | eireblue |
I am starting to get more nervous now when it is hoofed forward, and we invite another attack from midfield. |  | | |
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