| Starmer is a dead man walking 12:37 - Feb 4 with 16116 views | hype313 |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 03:57 - Feb 6 with 887 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 23:05 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
A downarrowing of the facts but no comment Ryorry?
If you're going to assert something that's not true, then rather than just downarrowing and running away you ought to post some counter evidence. |
Yet another of your ridiculous accusations of “running away”.
Like many, I often come in here to have a quick read & comment whilst eating something, then have to return to the serious issues of real life that we were taking a quick break from. I usually do flesh things out later, but apologies that recently, the flooding, building repairs, health issues etc etc etc etc that are currently taking up about 75% of my waking hours mean I haven’t had time to address your Very Real Concerns - I didn’t even have time to come back to this thread till seeing it at top of page till just now, though I did try to make some time to answer a few people on the Letby thread.
Now if you’ll excuse me I have a lengthy medical document to complete by 7.30 am; it’d be quite nice to have the time to try & get some sleep at some point too. [Post edited 6 Feb 6:18]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 07:24 - Feb 6 with 765 views | Benters |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 03:57 - Feb 6 by Ryorry |
Yet another of your ridiculous accusations of “running away”.
Like many, I often come in here to have a quick read & comment whilst eating something, then have to return to the serious issues of real life that we were taking a quick break from. I usually do flesh things out later, but apologies that recently, the flooding, building repairs, health issues etc etc etc etc that are currently taking up about 75% of my waking hours mean I haven’t had time to address your Very Real Concerns - I didn’t even have time to come back to this thread till seeing it at top of page till just now, though I did try to make some time to answer a few people on the Letby thread.
Now if you’ll excuse me I have a lengthy medical document to complete by 7.30 am; it’d be quite nice to have the time to try & get some sleep at some point too. [Post edited 6 Feb 6:18]
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Jeez you are not at anyones beck and call R 😆 |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:39 - Feb 6 with 652 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:05 - Feb 5 by jasondozzell |
People voted for it. It had to be done. How did you propose to tell those people who voted for Brexit they were being overruled?
May's deal was miles better than the hard Brexit Starmer and Mandelson crashed us into.
Brexit and Trump - neither of them were the cause, they were the symptom. |
Where to start. Firstly, the suggestion was a second referendum should be held once the deal was known, only a handful of people were suggesting Brexit be overturned completely. The idea of a second referendum was actually first proposed by famous remainer Jacob Rees-Mogg, who was on record saying that a referendum to leave and then a referendum on the deal makes sense. And in line with the stopped clock theory, he was right. If I asked you if you wanted a sandwich and you said yes, when I come back 10 minutes later with a fresh turd between two mouldy slices of Mighty White, should you be compelled to eat it because you said yes when I asked you if you wanted a sandwich? Or is it prudent for you to be given a chance to see whether the sandwich is palatable before you decide if you want to eat it?
If you are so sure that Brexit would have been overturned, surely that's a measure of it being a bad idea once more was known? Several on here had switched to remain by that point, in general there was more.semtiment towards remain by that point. Should we be beholden to a very narrow snapshot referendum that followed a campaign that contained a lot of disinformation funded by dodgy Russian money? If you think the answer to that is "yes" then fine, but even you should be able to see there are valid reasons to disagree on that.
And on May's deal, it was basically kicking the can down the road. Keeping the customs union while we work out what to do about the NI issue. It wasn't any kind of solution. Furthermore, you're clearly a big fan of Corbyn so I'm surprised you've made no mention of his tests for supporting any Brexit deal. He made it clear that any deal had to meet those tests and May's deal didn't. Are you suggesting he should have compromised on his principles and ordered his party to vote for a deal that didn't meet his tests? I'm assuming you'll suggest he had a gun to his head and it was all Starmer but if you want to go down that route, it shows he wasn't a good or effective leader if he couldn't even influence his party's own tests for any Brexit deal.
In short, you're rewriting history constantly. Don't try and accuse others of having narratives or engaging in smears when your own view of events is incredibly one-sided and only tenuously related to the reality of what actually happened |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:44 - Feb 6 with 639 views | SomethingBlue |
Lots of fallout in Europe re Epstein, and rightly so of course.
But what about the US ...? |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:47 - Feb 6 with 634 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:44 - Feb 6 by SomethingBlue |
Lots of fallout in Europe re Epstein, and rightly so of course.
But what about the US ...? |
In the US the Clinton’s want a public hearing with full media coverage so they can clear their names (and probably drop Trump right in it). All of a sudden Trump is saying nice things about the Clintons.
[Post edited 6 Feb 8:50]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:49 - Feb 6 with 603 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 03:57 - Feb 6 by Ryorry |
Yet another of your ridiculous accusations of “running away”.
Like many, I often come in here to have a quick read & comment whilst eating something, then have to return to the serious issues of real life that we were taking a quick break from. I usually do flesh things out later, but apologies that recently, the flooding, building repairs, health issues etc etc etc etc that are currently taking up about 75% of my waking hours mean I haven’t had time to address your Very Real Concerns - I didn’t even have time to come back to this thread till seeing it at top of page till just now, though I did try to make some time to answer a few people on the Letby thread.
Now if you’ll excuse me I have a lengthy medical document to complete by 7.30 am; it’d be quite nice to have the time to try & get some sleep at some point too. [Post edited 6 Feb 6:18]
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I posted my (reasonable and fairly passive) response at 2 in the afternoon, which you downarrowed. By 11 in the evening you still had only downarrowed, no response. What am I supposed to think other than downarrowing and running away?!
See you've managed to write all this but still not answered the point.
The thing is, you've posted an untrue accusation at the Green Party which people may believe and therefore not vote for them, so I think it's fairly reasonable to correct it. Personally I think people should either respond, if they have conflicting evidence, or just walk away accepting they got something wrong and leave the correction to stand.
Maybe the answer is to not downarrow things you don't have time to answer, else it looks like you simply don't have an answer? We're all busy with life. |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:53 - Feb 6 with 587 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 07:24 - Feb 6 by Benters |
Jeez you are not at anyones beck and call R 😆 |
I hardly think noting that there's been no response 9 hours later is being at someone's "beck and call". | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:54 - Feb 6 with 596 views | DJR |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:05 - Feb 5 by jasondozzell |
People voted for it. It had to be done. How did you propose to tell those people who voted for Brexit they were being overruled?
May's deal was miles better than the hard Brexit Starmer and Mandelson crashed us into.
Brexit and Trump - neither of them were the cause, they were the symptom. |
That's my view too.
And I was a staunch remainer who, unlike the overwhelming majority of people complaining about Brexit, campaigned on the streets for remain with only a handful of others in my constituency which didn't even include my pro-EU Tory MP.
And whilst there were plenty who took to the streets and campaigned for a second referendum (something I thought totally undemocratic), where were they before the Brexit vote?
When May gave a free vote, there was a possibility of a softer Brexit which from recollection the Lib Dems put the kibosh on, because they were greedy and thought they could get a referendum and so overturn the Brexit vote. [Post edited 6 Feb 9:02]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:58 - Feb 6 with 580 views | DanTheMan |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:47 - Feb 6 by GlasgowBlue |
In the US the Clinton’s want a public hearing with full media coverage so they can clear their names (and probably drop Trump right in it). All of a sudden Trump is saying nice things about the Clintons.
[Post edited 6 Feb 8:50]
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I do enjoy the email doing the rounds where randomly the word that is clearly supposed to be "don't" is redacted.
Seems a peculiar word to be redacting unless you had something automated looking for variations of don t. |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:08 - Feb 6 with 538 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 03:57 - Feb 6 by Ryorry |
Yet another of your ridiculous accusations of “running away”.
Like many, I often come in here to have a quick read & comment whilst eating something, then have to return to the serious issues of real life that we were taking a quick break from. I usually do flesh things out later, but apologies that recently, the flooding, building repairs, health issues etc etc etc etc that are currently taking up about 75% of my waking hours mean I haven’t had time to address your Very Real Concerns - I didn’t even have time to come back to this thread till seeing it at top of page till just now, though I did try to make some time to answer a few people on the Letby thread.
Now if you’ll excuse me I have a lengthy medical document to complete by 7.30 am; it’d be quite nice to have the time to try & get some sleep at some point too. [Post edited 6 Feb 6:18]
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Sorry to hear about your health issues R. Sounds like you have enough on your hands without having to justify your time to a random stranger on the internet. Use the ignore function. | |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:13 - Feb 6 with 509 views | WeWereZombies |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:54 - Feb 6 by DJR |
That's my view too.
And I was a staunch remainer who, unlike the overwhelming majority of people complaining about Brexit, campaigned on the streets for remain with only a handful of others in my constituency which didn't even include my pro-EU Tory MP.
And whilst there were plenty who took to the streets and campaigned for a second referendum (something I thought totally undemocratic), where were they before the Brexit vote?
When May gave a free vote, there was a possibility of a softer Brexit which from recollection the Lib Dems put the kibosh on, because they were greedy and thought they could get a referendum and so overturn the Brexit vote. [Post edited 6 Feb 9:02]
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This just makes Herbivore's tale of the turd between two mouldy slices of bread (wot ! no lard...) ring true all the more, maybe democracy is setting a course based on a set of policies put to an electorate and then followed on an unswerving course (Parliaments always work like that, don't they ?) but common sense (hooray for Tom Paine) has some validity. So I feel justified in voting for a second referendum on the basis that if you are five miles out from an uncharted iceberg (and in possession of a decent pair of binoculars) and in command of an oil tanker I'm not keen on the solution of saying 'Hold steady lads, it will just cleave in two when we hit it', I would rather issue the order to change course and say 'oh by the way, thanks for the sarnie' as I chucked it overboard... |  |
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:20 - Feb 6 with 479 views | soupytwist |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 19:05 - Feb 5 by jasondozzell |
People voted for it. It had to be done. How did you propose to tell those people who voted for Brexit they were being overruled?
May's deal was miles better than the hard Brexit Starmer and Mandelson crashed us into.
Brexit and Trump - neither of them were the cause, they were the symptom. |
My problem with Corbyn about Brexit was his unwillingness to provide the kind of leadership for voting remain that could have made a difference.
Wasn't bothered by what he did after the vote.
I actively campaigned for remain before the referendum, I took no part in trying to get the result overturned afterwards. |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:20 - Feb 6 with 479 views | DJR |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:17 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
That is true, but largely as a result of BoE policies and long standing inflation finally working out of the system, rather than any particular govt policies. Worth noting the job market is static and wage growth slowing. So it’s potentially a side effect of some concerning metrics:
https://www.reuters.com/sustai
The additional taxes on employment were always going to slow job data down. Interesting that UK borrowing costs have also risen this week since Starmer’s position has weakened. |
Absolutely. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:21 - Feb 6 with 469 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 08:54 - Feb 6 by DJR |
That's my view too.
And I was a staunch remainer who, unlike the overwhelming majority of people complaining about Brexit, campaigned on the streets for remain with only a handful of others in my constituency which didn't even include my pro-EU Tory MP.
And whilst there were plenty who took to the streets and campaigned for a second referendum (something I thought totally undemocratic), where were they before the Brexit vote?
When May gave a free vote, there was a possibility of a softer Brexit which from recollection the Lib Dems put the kibosh on, because they were greedy and thought they could get a referendum and so overturn the Brexit vote. [Post edited 6 Feb 9:02]
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On Brexit though, there is no reason Starmer can’t begin negotiations to rejoin the single market whilst respecting the referendum. Certainly favourable than going cap in hand to the dreadful Chinese regime.
He’s pushed (or at least tried) other policies which weren’t in their manifesto like Digital ID and removal of jury trials/ why not try for something liberal and positive like accessing the world’s wealthiest trading bloc. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:25 - Feb 6 with 440 views | DJR |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:21 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
On Brexit though, there is no reason Starmer can’t begin negotiations to rejoin the single market whilst respecting the referendum. Certainly favourable than going cap in hand to the dreadful Chinese regime.
He’s pushed (or at least tried) other policies which weren’t in their manifesto like Digital ID and removal of jury trials/ why not try for something liberal and positive like accessing the world’s wealthiest trading bloc. |
Once again, absolutely ,not least because the type of Brexit was always up for grabs.
But I rather fear he is now in such a weakened position that he is not going to go anywhere near that sort of thing.
It's a shame really because a successful and popular Starmer government could have shifted the dial.
As it is, there was a suggestion that the other day that there may be some sort of deal on youth mobility, but I wonder now whether even that will see the light of day. [Post edited 6 Feb 9:29]
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| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:33 - Feb 6 with 416 views | glasso |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 14:33 - Feb 4 by jasondozzell |
Haha you can't be serious.
These were always the very worst people at the very worst time.
The grown ups got back in the room and it turned out that they were the worst of the lot.
Who was Mandelson's protege? It was common knowledge.
A lot of centrist dad, rest is politics brigade, James o'brien types aren't going to like looking stupid but that's basically what they were.
Nothing grown up about this government that was only ever going to result in a Reform majority government
Next stop on the slow moving car crash - Wes! [Post edited 4 Feb 14:33]
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No denying Labour have been a bit of a car crash since they got in, but there's a bit of revisionism going on here.
Realistically at the time, it was only ever going to be Labour or the Tories (nobody else was making a serious claim like they are now) and this Labour government are nowhere near as bad as the Tories were.
Every day we woke up to a fresh controversy about Tory MPs enriching themselves or getting involved in some kind of corruption. If this Epstein scandal had happened under the Tories it would've been forgotten by now as something new happened the next morning. Boris survived about 20 of these types of scandal before finally falling over the edge.
At least now we have more parties entering the fray, even if some of them are absolutely horrific prospects | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:38 - Feb 6 with 394 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:21 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
On Brexit though, there is no reason Starmer can’t begin negotiations to rejoin the single market whilst respecting the referendum. Certainly favourable than going cap in hand to the dreadful Chinese regime.
He’s pushed (or at least tried) other policies which weren’t in their manifesto like Digital ID and removal of jury trials/ why not try for something liberal and positive like accessing the world’s wealthiest trading bloc. |
Why can't we have another referendum to just rejoin? How long is it valid for and how long do we have to respect it and not have another one?
It's been a decade, it's been a disaster and people should surely have the right to have another vote on it? It's approximately the period of two general elections so people will have had the opportunity to change their minds about our government twice in that period but not change their vote on Brexit.
SB |  | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:43 - Feb 6 with 371 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:38 - Feb 6 by StokieBlue |
Why can't we have another referendum to just rejoin? How long is it valid for and how long do we have to respect it and not have another one?
It's been a decade, it's been a disaster and people should surely have the right to have another vote on it? It's approximately the period of two general elections so people will have had the opportunity to change their minds about our government twice in that period but not change their vote on Brexit.
SB |
In my opinion that would just cause more economic damage, most of our regulation is still in line with that of the EEA so it in theory shouldn’t be a long transition. Another referendum first would just create more years of uncertainty for businesses, and EU accession would likely take years at the pace the EU moves. Rejoin the Single Market and have a referendum on full membership in the future. | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:49 - Feb 6 with 346 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:43 - Feb 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
In my opinion that would just cause more economic damage, most of our regulation is still in line with that of the EEA so it in theory shouldn’t be a long transition. Another referendum first would just create more years of uncertainty for businesses, and EU accession would likely take years at the pace the EU moves. Rejoin the Single Market and have a referendum on full membership in the future. |
I think there are wider issues here though.
We are alone in a world increasingly run by large countries and blocks. We don't really have any good deals with any of them and in reality the US is moving further away from us and Europe.
Joining the single market would help economically but on the wider front we really need to be part of a block that can realistically push back on the superstates.
Not everything can be narrowed down to what is absolutely best economically.
However, if a referendum to rejoin was part of the plan after joining the single market then that would be a good step from where we are now.
SB | | | |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:54 - Feb 6 with 336 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer is a dead man walking on 09:49 - Feb 6 by StokieBlue |
I think there are wider issues here though.
We are alone in a world increasingly run by large countries and blocks. We don't really have any good deals with any of them and in reality the US is moving further away from us and Europe.
Joining the single market would help economically but on the wider front we really need to be part of a block that can realistically push back on the superstates.
Not everything can be narrowed down to what is absolutely best economically.
However, if a referendum to rejoin was part of the plan after joining the single market then that would be a good step from where we are now.
SB |
I understand what you are saying but a condition of joining the single market is accepting freedom of movement. With reform already holding a considerable lead in the polls that policy would basically hand them the next election on a plate.
The May deal would have allowed us to stay in the Customs Union but the no deal Tories and second referendum group from Labour and the Lib Dem’s ensured that never happened.
[Post edited 6 Feb 9:55]
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