| Gorton and Denton By-election 19:20 - Feb 15 with 7720 views | gtsb1966 |
Greens odds on to win with Reform 2nd and Labour 3rd. Surely that would be the end of Starmer if that happened. One can only hope. I cant see some members of the party waiting for the annihilation in the May elections.
https://www.oddschecker.com/po |  | | |  |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 10:09 - Feb 17 with 1086 views | lowhouseblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:50 - Feb 17 by Herbivore |
I'm going to pull this up because it seems "the left" can't win. When they push their principles they are told to stop trying to tell the electorate what is good for them and it's incredibly arrogant to think they know better than working people. But now you're suggesting the left take a more paternalistic approach and vote Labour even though people on lower incomes and in lower social grades have moved away from Labour (see voter demographics, Labour achieving a higher vote share amongst the more well educated, higher earners, and ABC1 than amongst lower earners, less well educated, and C2DE: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/
I think centrists who vote Labour aren't great at self-reflecting. They blame everything on "the left" without recognising that when Labour pivot to the right, not only do they fail to keep "the left" on board but often they also fail to win over folks from traditional Labour heartlands. They don't win over what used to be the working classes. Instead they appeal to centrist dads with a bit of a conscience who would otherwise vote Lib Dem or for Cameron style Tories but who like the idea of voting Labour because they think they're making a difference when really they're voting for the same failing status quo but with a different colour rosette. It's that failing status quo that's driving people to Reform, not "the left". |
in terms of class your link doesn't support what you're saying. in the report the difference in support for labour between ab (36%) and de (34%) wasn't outside of the polling error. in terms of education and income, labour's reliance on graduates and higher income earners has been true for a very long time - i'm sure in 2019 under corbyn it was just the same.
what is more interesting is that, with one exception, support for no party is shown as varying by class. the exception of course is reform. and that points to the huge elephant in the room which you are always determined to ignore. a large proportion of people in cd and de feel that they have been let down, tricked and ignored over immigration. they have voted consistently for policies to reduce it and yet mass immigration has gone on regardless. the fact that mass immigration has been pursued with no electoral mandate has shattered their confidence in main stream politics. it is this single issue above all else that is currently driving the pattern of party support - if you insist on ignoring that you can't explain what's going on. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 10:29 - Feb 17 with 1017 views | Mullet |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:59 - Feb 17 by Herbivore |
Coming in and deciding that your first big policy announcement is to take the winter fuel allowance away from pensioners doesn't exactly set a great tone. I actually agree that not every pensioner should get it, there are lots that don't need it, but they hadn't through it through properly and created a cliff edge that meant many pensioners on what most would consider low incomes wouldn't get it anymore. They then seemed surprised that it got a lot of people's backs up. Just pure idiocy and they were then forced to backtrack, but even that they didn't do quickly enough to salvage any credit in the bank. Completely inept government. |
That was a good sign of how badly they got the messaging wrong. Alongside they went after a demographic still propping up the print media. Who are all right wing in the main and aren’t going to give Labour a fair hearing.
The fact that governments can’t keep up with the habits of the public is really telling. It’s the same as Niges working class cosplay of I’ll eat chips and take money off your pint stuff. |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:08 - Feb 17 with 934 views | itfcjoe |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:46 - Feb 17 by DJR |
That's complete nonsense.
Having been a Labour Party member for nearly 40 years, I came across no one in the party who didn't want to win an election.
Having said, the look on Stephen Kinnock's face on election night when Labour did as well as it did in 2017 suggested he didn't want Labour to win that election.  [Post edited 17 Feb 8:51]
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I think you are getting the same on the other side now. We now have Reform, Reclaim under Laurence Fox which will go nowhere, and Restore under Rupert Lowe with Elon Musk amplifying their messages on X.
The broad churches are seemingly dead from the main 2 parties, we'll find out soon who is better at convalescing behind one message and making required compromises
EDIT - Got my RW Rupert's muddled up [Post edited 17 Feb 11:52]
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:09 - Feb 17 with 934 views | itfcjoe |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:50 - Feb 17 by Herbivore |
I'm going to pull this up because it seems "the left" can't win. When they push their principles they are told to stop trying to tell the electorate what is good for them and it's incredibly arrogant to think they know better than working people. But now you're suggesting the left take a more paternalistic approach and vote Labour even though people on lower incomes and in lower social grades have moved away from Labour (see voter demographics, Labour achieving a higher vote share amongst the more well educated, higher earners, and ABC1 than amongst lower earners, less well educated, and C2DE: https://yougov.co.uk/politics/
I think centrists who vote Labour aren't great at self-reflecting. They blame everything on "the left" without recognising that when Labour pivot to the right, not only do they fail to keep "the left" on board but often they also fail to win over folks from traditional Labour heartlands. They don't win over what used to be the working classes. Instead they appeal to centrist dads with a bit of a conscience who would otherwise vote Lib Dem or for Cameron style Tories but who like the idea of voting Labour because they think they're making a difference when really they're voting for the same failing status quo but with a different colour rosette. It's that failing status quo that's driving people to Reform, not "the left". |
I haven't said it is the left driving people to Reform, I don't think it is | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:10 - Feb 17 with 930 views | itfcjoe |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 08:52 - Feb 17 by Pinewoodblue |
It is the fact the U turns have been avoidable that is the root cause of Labour’s problems.
Lack of judgement at the top. |
Absolutely, too much reliance on focus groups which are amplifying back the message from a class of people that wouldn't vote Labour in a million years | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:19 - Feb 17 with 900 views | Kievthegreat |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:08 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
I think you are getting the same on the other side now. We now have Reform, Reclaim under Laurence Fox which will go nowhere, and Restore under Rupert Lowe with Elon Musk amplifying their messages on X.
The broad churches are seemingly dead from the main 2 parties, we'll find out soon who is better at convalescing behind one message and making required compromises
EDIT - Got my RW Rupert's muddled up [Post edited 17 Feb 11:52]
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Rupert Lowe, not Murdoch. |  | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:44 - Feb 17 with 866 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:10 - Feb 17 by itfcjoe |
Absolutely, too much reliance on focus groups which are amplifying back the message from a class of people that wouldn't vote Labour in a million years |
It might have been helpful for these observations to have happened in 2021 when it was increasingly obvious what these lot were about.
And as much they may be fans of Blairite triangulation, I'd also suggest that they are doing the things they are doing because they want to do them.
It wasn't exactly subtle - the lads appeared at conference in front of 60ft union jack flags and got straight into crackdowns.
Painting them as naive innocents who have been led down the wrong path by focus groups is an insult to the intelligence really. |  | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 13:36 - Feb 17 with 743 views | EdwardStone |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 11:44 - Feb 17 by jasondozzell |
It might have been helpful for these observations to have happened in 2021 when it was increasingly obvious what these lot were about.
And as much they may be fans of Blairite triangulation, I'd also suggest that they are doing the things they are doing because they want to do them.
It wasn't exactly subtle - the lads appeared at conference in front of 60ft union jack flags and got straight into crackdowns.
Painting them as naive innocents who have been led down the wrong path by focus groups is an insult to the intelligence really. |
I will never ever trust Starmer again
Wrapping himself in the Union Flag and uttering the words "Island of strangers"
Unforgivable |  | | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 13:42 - Feb 17 with 732 views | Herbivore |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 13:36 - Feb 17 by EdwardStone |
I will never ever trust Starmer again
Wrapping himself in the Union Flag and uttering the words "Island of strangers"
Unforgivable |
And people wonder why we're seeing the normalisation of support for the far-right when the Labour Party are coming out with that kind of rhetoric. But no, it's definitely "the left" that's the problem. |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:08 - Feb 17 with 681 views | lowhouseblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 13:36 - Feb 17 by EdwardStone |
I will never ever trust Starmer again
Wrapping himself in the Union Flag and uttering the words "Island of strangers"
Unforgivable |
this is the full speech - rather than just extracting 3 words. the problem you have, again if you read the speech in full, is that is one of the few stances taken by starmer's government that has clear and overwhelming public support.
"Today, we publish a White Paper on immigration, a strategy that is absolutely central to my Plan for Change. This strategy will finally take back control of our borders and close the book on a squalid chapter for our politics, our economy, and our country.
“Take back control.” Everyone knows that slogan and what it meant for immigration, or at least that’s what people thought. Because what followed from the previous Government, starting with the people who used that slogan, was the complete opposite. Between 2019 and 2023, even as they were going around our country telling people, with a straight face, they would get immigration down, net migration quadrupled. Until in 2023, it reached nearly 1 million, which is about the population of Birmingham, our second largest city. That’s not control – it’s chaos.
And look, they must answer for themselves, but I don’t think you can do something like that by accident. It was a choice. A choice made even as they told you, told the country, they were doing the opposite. A one-nation experiment in open borders conducted on a country that voted for control. Well, no more. Today, this [political content redacted] Government is shutting down the lab. The experiment is over. We will deliver what you have asked for – time and again – and we will take back control of our borders.
And let me tell you why. Because I know, on a day like today, people who like politics will try to make this all about politics, about this or that strategy, targeting these voters, responding to that party. No. I am doing this because it is right, because it is fair, and because it is what I believe in.
Let me put it this way: Nations depend on rules – fair rules. Sometimes they’re written down, often they’re not, but either way, they give shape to our values. They guide us towards our rights, of course, but also our responsibilities, the obligations we owe to one another. Now, in a diverse nation like ours, and I celebrate that, these rules become even more important. Without them, we risk becoming an island of strangers, not a nation that walks forward together.
So when you have an immigration system that seems almost designed to permit abuse, that encourages some businesses to bring in lower-paid workers rather than invest in our young people, or simply one that is sold by politicians to the British people on an entirely false premise, then you’re not championing growth, you’re not championing justice, or however else people defend the status quo. You’re actually contributing to the forces that are slowly pulling our country apart.
So yes, I believe in this. I believe we need to reduce immigration significantly. That’s why some of the policies in this White Paper go back nearly three years, [political content redacted]. It’s about fairness.
Migration is part of Britain’s national story. We talked last week about the great rebuilding of this country after the war; migrants were part of that, and they make a massive contribution today. You will never hear me denigrate that. But when people come to our country, they should also commit to integration, to learning our language, and our system should actively distinguish between those that do and those that don’t. I think that’s fair.
Equally, Britain must compete for the best talent in the world in science, in technology, in healthcare. You cannot simply pull up a drawbridge, let nobody in, and think that is an economy that would work. That would hurt the pay packets of working people – without question. But at the same time, we do have to ask why parts of our economy seem almost addicted to importing cheap labour rather than investing in the skills of people who are here and want a good job in their community. Sectors like engineering, where visas have rocketed while apprenticeships have plummeted. Is that fair to Britain? Is it fair to young people weighing up their future to miss out on those apprenticeships, to see colleges in their community almost entirely dedicated to one-year courses for overseas students? No, I don’t think it is. And truth be told, I don’t think anyone does. And yet that is the Britain this broken system has created.
So, as this White Paper sets out, every area of the immigration system – work, family, and study – will be tightened up so we have more control. Skill requirements raised to degree level. English language requirements across all routes – including for dependents. The time it takes to acquire settled status extended from five years to ten. And enforcement tougher than ever because fair rules must be followed.
Now, make no mistake – this plan means migration will fall. That’s a promise. But I want to be very clear on this. If we do need to take further steps, if we do need to do more to release pressure on housing and our public services, then mark my words – we will. But it’s not just about numbers. Because the chaos of the previous government also changed the nature of immigration in this country. Fewer people who make a strong economic contribution, more who work in parts of our economy that put downward pressure on wages. So perhaps the biggest shift in this White Paper is that we will finally honour what “take back control” meant and begin to choose who comes here so that migration works for our national interest.
You know, this is where the whole debate is skewed, as if some people think controlling immigration is reigning in a sort of natural freedom rather than a basic and reasonable responsibility of government to make choices that work for a nation’s economy. For years, this seems to have muddled our thinking, but let me be clear – it ends now. We will create a migration system that is controlled, selective, and fair. A clean break with the past that links access to visas directly to investment in homegrown skills so that if a business wants to bring people in from abroad, they must first invest in Britain. But also, so settlement becomes a privilege that is earned, not a right, easier if you make a contribution, if you work, pay in, and help rebuild our country.
Now, some people may even be against that, but I think for the vast majority of people in this country, that is what they have long wanted to see. An immigration system that is fair, that works for our national interest, and that restores common sense and control to our borders. That is what this White Paper will deliver: lower net migration, higher skills, backing British workers, the start of repairing our social contract, which the chaos and cynicism of the last government did so much to undermine." | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:20 - Feb 17 with 661 views | eireblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:08 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
this is the full speech - rather than just extracting 3 words. the problem you have, again if you read the speech in full, is that is one of the few stances taken by starmer's government that has clear and overwhelming public support.
"Today, we publish a White Paper on immigration, a strategy that is absolutely central to my Plan for Change. This strategy will finally take back control of our borders and close the book on a squalid chapter for our politics, our economy, and our country.
“Take back control.” Everyone knows that slogan and what it meant for immigration, or at least that’s what people thought. Because what followed from the previous Government, starting with the people who used that slogan, was the complete opposite. Between 2019 and 2023, even as they were going around our country telling people, with a straight face, they would get immigration down, net migration quadrupled. Until in 2023, it reached nearly 1 million, which is about the population of Birmingham, our second largest city. That’s not control – it’s chaos.
And look, they must answer for themselves, but I don’t think you can do something like that by accident. It was a choice. A choice made even as they told you, told the country, they were doing the opposite. A one-nation experiment in open borders conducted on a country that voted for control. Well, no more. Today, this [political content redacted] Government is shutting down the lab. The experiment is over. We will deliver what you have asked for – time and again – and we will take back control of our borders.
And let me tell you why. Because I know, on a day like today, people who like politics will try to make this all about politics, about this or that strategy, targeting these voters, responding to that party. No. I am doing this because it is right, because it is fair, and because it is what I believe in.
Let me put it this way: Nations depend on rules – fair rules. Sometimes they’re written down, often they’re not, but either way, they give shape to our values. They guide us towards our rights, of course, but also our responsibilities, the obligations we owe to one another. Now, in a diverse nation like ours, and I celebrate that, these rules become even more important. Without them, we risk becoming an island of strangers, not a nation that walks forward together.
So when you have an immigration system that seems almost designed to permit abuse, that encourages some businesses to bring in lower-paid workers rather than invest in our young people, or simply one that is sold by politicians to the British people on an entirely false premise, then you’re not championing growth, you’re not championing justice, or however else people defend the status quo. You’re actually contributing to the forces that are slowly pulling our country apart.
So yes, I believe in this. I believe we need to reduce immigration significantly. That’s why some of the policies in this White Paper go back nearly three years, [political content redacted]. It’s about fairness.
Migration is part of Britain’s national story. We talked last week about the great rebuilding of this country after the war; migrants were part of that, and they make a massive contribution today. You will never hear me denigrate that. But when people come to our country, they should also commit to integration, to learning our language, and our system should actively distinguish between those that do and those that don’t. I think that’s fair.
Equally, Britain must compete for the best talent in the world in science, in technology, in healthcare. You cannot simply pull up a drawbridge, let nobody in, and think that is an economy that would work. That would hurt the pay packets of working people – without question. But at the same time, we do have to ask why parts of our economy seem almost addicted to importing cheap labour rather than investing in the skills of people who are here and want a good job in their community. Sectors like engineering, where visas have rocketed while apprenticeships have plummeted. Is that fair to Britain? Is it fair to young people weighing up their future to miss out on those apprenticeships, to see colleges in their community almost entirely dedicated to one-year courses for overseas students? No, I don’t think it is. And truth be told, I don’t think anyone does. And yet that is the Britain this broken system has created.
So, as this White Paper sets out, every area of the immigration system – work, family, and study – will be tightened up so we have more control. Skill requirements raised to degree level. English language requirements across all routes – including for dependents. The time it takes to acquire settled status extended from five years to ten. And enforcement tougher than ever because fair rules must be followed.
Now, make no mistake – this plan means migration will fall. That’s a promise. But I want to be very clear on this. If we do need to take further steps, if we do need to do more to release pressure on housing and our public services, then mark my words – we will. But it’s not just about numbers. Because the chaos of the previous government also changed the nature of immigration in this country. Fewer people who make a strong economic contribution, more who work in parts of our economy that put downward pressure on wages. So perhaps the biggest shift in this White Paper is that we will finally honour what “take back control” meant and begin to choose who comes here so that migration works for our national interest.
You know, this is where the whole debate is skewed, as if some people think controlling immigration is reigning in a sort of natural freedom rather than a basic and reasonable responsibility of government to make choices that work for a nation’s economy. For years, this seems to have muddled our thinking, but let me be clear – it ends now. We will create a migration system that is controlled, selective, and fair. A clean break with the past that links access to visas directly to investment in homegrown skills so that if a business wants to bring people in from abroad, they must first invest in Britain. But also, so settlement becomes a privilege that is earned, not a right, easier if you make a contribution, if you work, pay in, and help rebuild our country.
Now, some people may even be against that, but I think for the vast majority of people in this country, that is what they have long wanted to see. An immigration system that is fair, that works for our national interest, and that restores common sense and control to our borders. That is what this White Paper will deliver: lower net migration, higher skills, backing British workers, the start of repairing our social contract, which the chaos and cynicism of the last government did so much to undermine." |
Okay, let’s do the test.
Benters, what do you think to that speech. |  | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:29 - Feb 17 with 621 views | lowhouseblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:20 - Feb 17 by eireblue |
Okay, let’s do the test.
Benters, what do you think to that speech. |
i don't really care how he votes, it's entirely up to him. his hatred for starmer sounds irreversible. but if you actually read the speech, rather than only the 3 words you've seen on social media, he is setting out a principled position. doubtless they are principles that differ from yours. it's up to you to engage with the argument that he presents, not out-source it to benters. they are also principles that resonate with a large majority of the electorate. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:33 - Feb 17 with 602 views | Kievthegreat |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:20 - Feb 17 by eireblue |
Okay, let’s do the test.
Benters, what do you think to that speech. |
Why wait? Here is Nigel Farage's opinion:
"Reform...very much enjoyed your speech on Monday. You seem to be learning a very great deal from us"
[Post edited 17 Feb 14:34]
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:39 - Feb 17 with 565 views | eireblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:29 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
i don't really care how he votes, it's entirely up to him. his hatred for starmer sounds irreversible. but if you actually read the speech, rather than only the 3 words you've seen on social media, he is setting out a principled position. doubtless they are principles that differ from yours. it's up to you to engage with the argument that he presents, not out-source it to benters. they are also principles that resonate with a large majority of the electorate. |
How do you know what I have seen on Social Media?
You have no doubt about my views? | | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:43 - Feb 17 with 531 views | DJR |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:08 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
this is the full speech - rather than just extracting 3 words. the problem you have, again if you read the speech in full, is that is one of the few stances taken by starmer's government that has clear and overwhelming public support.
"Today, we publish a White Paper on immigration, a strategy that is absolutely central to my Plan for Change. This strategy will finally take back control of our borders and close the book on a squalid chapter for our politics, our economy, and our country.
“Take back control.” Everyone knows that slogan and what it meant for immigration, or at least that’s what people thought. Because what followed from the previous Government, starting with the people who used that slogan, was the complete opposite. Between 2019 and 2023, even as they were going around our country telling people, with a straight face, they would get immigration down, net migration quadrupled. Until in 2023, it reached nearly 1 million, which is about the population of Birmingham, our second largest city. That’s not control – it’s chaos.
And look, they must answer for themselves, but I don’t think you can do something like that by accident. It was a choice. A choice made even as they told you, told the country, they were doing the opposite. A one-nation experiment in open borders conducted on a country that voted for control. Well, no more. Today, this [political content redacted] Government is shutting down the lab. The experiment is over. We will deliver what you have asked for – time and again – and we will take back control of our borders.
And let me tell you why. Because I know, on a day like today, people who like politics will try to make this all about politics, about this or that strategy, targeting these voters, responding to that party. No. I am doing this because it is right, because it is fair, and because it is what I believe in.
Let me put it this way: Nations depend on rules – fair rules. Sometimes they’re written down, often they’re not, but either way, they give shape to our values. They guide us towards our rights, of course, but also our responsibilities, the obligations we owe to one another. Now, in a diverse nation like ours, and I celebrate that, these rules become even more important. Without them, we risk becoming an island of strangers, not a nation that walks forward together.
So when you have an immigration system that seems almost designed to permit abuse, that encourages some businesses to bring in lower-paid workers rather than invest in our young people, or simply one that is sold by politicians to the British people on an entirely false premise, then you’re not championing growth, you’re not championing justice, or however else people defend the status quo. You’re actually contributing to the forces that are slowly pulling our country apart.
So yes, I believe in this. I believe we need to reduce immigration significantly. That’s why some of the policies in this White Paper go back nearly three years, [political content redacted]. It’s about fairness.
Migration is part of Britain’s national story. We talked last week about the great rebuilding of this country after the war; migrants were part of that, and they make a massive contribution today. You will never hear me denigrate that. But when people come to our country, they should also commit to integration, to learning our language, and our system should actively distinguish between those that do and those that don’t. I think that’s fair.
Equally, Britain must compete for the best talent in the world in science, in technology, in healthcare. You cannot simply pull up a drawbridge, let nobody in, and think that is an economy that would work. That would hurt the pay packets of working people – without question. But at the same time, we do have to ask why parts of our economy seem almost addicted to importing cheap labour rather than investing in the skills of people who are here and want a good job in their community. Sectors like engineering, where visas have rocketed while apprenticeships have plummeted. Is that fair to Britain? Is it fair to young people weighing up their future to miss out on those apprenticeships, to see colleges in their community almost entirely dedicated to one-year courses for overseas students? No, I don’t think it is. And truth be told, I don’t think anyone does. And yet that is the Britain this broken system has created.
So, as this White Paper sets out, every area of the immigration system – work, family, and study – will be tightened up so we have more control. Skill requirements raised to degree level. English language requirements across all routes – including for dependents. The time it takes to acquire settled status extended from five years to ten. And enforcement tougher than ever because fair rules must be followed.
Now, make no mistake – this plan means migration will fall. That’s a promise. But I want to be very clear on this. If we do need to take further steps, if we do need to do more to release pressure on housing and our public services, then mark my words – we will. But it’s not just about numbers. Because the chaos of the previous government also changed the nature of immigration in this country. Fewer people who make a strong economic contribution, more who work in parts of our economy that put downward pressure on wages. So perhaps the biggest shift in this White Paper is that we will finally honour what “take back control” meant and begin to choose who comes here so that migration works for our national interest.
You know, this is where the whole debate is skewed, as if some people think controlling immigration is reigning in a sort of natural freedom rather than a basic and reasonable responsibility of government to make choices that work for a nation’s economy. For years, this seems to have muddled our thinking, but let me be clear – it ends now. We will create a migration system that is controlled, selective, and fair. A clean break with the past that links access to visas directly to investment in homegrown skills so that if a business wants to bring people in from abroad, they must first invest in Britain. But also, so settlement becomes a privilege that is earned, not a right, easier if you make a contribution, if you work, pay in, and help rebuild our country.
Now, some people may even be against that, but I think for the vast majority of people in this country, that is what they have long wanted to see. An immigration system that is fair, that works for our national interest, and that restores common sense and control to our borders. That is what this White Paper will deliver: lower net migration, higher skills, backing British workers, the start of repairing our social contract, which the chaos and cynicism of the last government did so much to undermine." |
For a brief moment I thought you'd learnt to paragraph and use initial capitals but then I realised you were copying what someone else had written. |  | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:49 - Feb 17 with 510 views | Dubtractor |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:29 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
i don't really care how he votes, it's entirely up to him. his hatred for starmer sounds irreversible. but if you actually read the speech, rather than only the 3 words you've seen on social media, he is setting out a principled position. doubtless they are principles that differ from yours. it's up to you to engage with the argument that he presents, not out-source it to benters. they are also principles that resonate with a large majority of the electorate. |
Thing is, it's not 'just 3 words' is it?
Those 3 words will have been very carefully chosen for the impact that they inevitably had.
Any political speech in the present day is all about the sound bites, and very little about the detail. |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:54 - Feb 17 with 499 views | Herbivore |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:49 - Feb 17 by Dubtractor |
Thing is, it's not 'just 3 words' is it?
Those 3 words will have been very carefully chosen for the impact that they inevitably had.
Any political speech in the present day is all about the sound bites, and very little about the detail. |
Indeed. Incredibly disingenuous to suggest it's just three words taken out of context. It's the kind of rhetoric the BNP used to use and some seem happy to participate in normalising what used to be the preserve of the far right. | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 15:02 - Feb 17 with 477 views | Dubtractor |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:54 - Feb 17 by Herbivore |
Indeed. Incredibly disingenuous to suggest it's just three words taken out of context. It's the kind of rhetoric the BNP used to use and some seem happy to participate in normalising what used to be the preserve of the far right. |
Exactly.
I've shared my view on here a few times, that i think a more honest discussion on immigration is needed, and that in some areas the balance on immigration feels wrong, but I'd (foolishly) hoped that labour would be able to do that without needing to demonise 'others'.
It all feeds into the legitimising of racism and discrimination. It is bleak. | |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 15:45 - Feb 17 with 414 views | DJR |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:29 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
i don't really care how he votes, it's entirely up to him. his hatred for starmer sounds irreversible. but if you actually read the speech, rather than only the 3 words you've seen on social media, he is setting out a principled position. doubtless they are principles that differ from yours. it's up to you to engage with the argument that he presents, not out-source it to benters. they are also principles that resonate with a large majority of the electorate. |
It may or may not be principled but I have a few observations.
1. Those 3 words were obviously put in for a reason, presumably as red meat.
2. Those words mirrored (although not exactly) the following words from Powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
"For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country."
3. The words in some sense are a nonsense because I know maybe no more than 30 people in the UK, so everyone else is a stranger to me.
4. The words caused a furore.
5. Starmer had to apologise.
6. The result was that the words in question and the "good bits" failed to cut through in the way hoped.
7. Those words probably lost Labour votes from "progressives" and many from minority ethnic communities.
8. It was accordingly very poor from a political point of view (leaving aside the objectionable nature of those words), which is par for the course with this government.
EDIT: as regards point 7 and the climate more generally, my daughter's best friend, who voluntarily wears a hijab, now fears wearing it in public and is also concerned that people like her could face deportation in the future given how extreme the rhetoric is these days. And when anti-immigrant rhetoric and action is coming even from the Labour government, can you blame her? [Post edited 17 Feb 16:49]
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 16:02 - Feb 17 with 381 views | leitrimblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 10:09 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
in terms of class your link doesn't support what you're saying. in the report the difference in support for labour between ab (36%) and de (34%) wasn't outside of the polling error. in terms of education and income, labour's reliance on graduates and higher income earners has been true for a very long time - i'm sure in 2019 under corbyn it was just the same.
what is more interesting is that, with one exception, support for no party is shown as varying by class. the exception of course is reform. and that points to the huge elephant in the room which you are always determined to ignore. a large proportion of people in cd and de feel that they have been let down, tricked and ignored over immigration. they have voted consistently for policies to reduce it and yet mass immigration has gone on regardless. the fact that mass immigration has been pursued with no electoral mandate has shattered their confidence in main stream politics. it is this single issue above all else that is currently driving the pattern of party support - if you insist on ignoring that you can't explain what's going on. |
Think the real 'huge elephant in the room' is a large proportion of C2, D and E feel they have been let down, tricked and ignored full stop.
The fact that some people wish to outline this as them just being tricked and ignored solely on immigration rather then on so many other issue's is part of a much bigger issue. |  | | |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:28 - Feb 17 with 293 views | lowhouseblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:49 - Feb 17 by Dubtractor |
Thing is, it's not 'just 3 words' is it?
Those 3 words will have been very carefully chosen for the impact that they inevitably had.
Any political speech in the present day is all about the sound bites, and very little about the detail. |
i don't believe they were carefully chosen. that's entirely and solely the take of people who want to rubbish the speech and want to avoid engaging with it's content.
the 3 words were the exact opposite of carefully chosen - they are a cock up and whoever wrote the speech should be fired. alas this is a government which is being brought down by these sorts of communications cock ups - again and again and again.
without those 3 words people - like those on this thread - would actually have to engage with the points made in the speech, rather than point to the 3 words and walk away as if nothing more needs to be said. whoever put the 3 words into the speech is an incompetent idiot. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:32 - Feb 17 with 278 views | lowhouseblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 14:54 - Feb 17 by Herbivore |
Indeed. Incredibly disingenuous to suggest it's just three words taken out of context. It's the kind of rhetoric the BNP used to use and some seem happy to participate in normalising what used to be the preserve of the far right. |
but what about the argument in the speech? as ever it's any excuse you can possibly grasp to avoid engaging with those arguments. head in sand, focus on 3 words you don't like, link it to the bnp and claim it's racist, and whatever you do never mention immigration. it's desperate and it isn't a political strategy that will work. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:47 - Feb 17 with 245 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:32 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
but what about the argument in the speech? as ever it's any excuse you can possibly grasp to avoid engaging with those arguments. head in sand, focus on 3 words you don't like, link it to the bnp and claim it's racist, and whatever you do never mention immigration. it's desperate and it isn't a political strategy that will work. |
The real question is, how many of the C2, D and E groups really heard all the arguments and points in the speech and thought, yep, that Starmer bloke's really gets it and he's going to get a tight grip on migration? |  |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:48 - Feb 17 with 231 views | lowhouseblue |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:47 - Feb 17 by Ewan_Oozami |
The real question is, how many of the C2, D and E groups really heard all the arguments and points in the speech and thought, yep, that Starmer bloke's really gets it and he's going to get a tight grip on migration? |
quite, he needs to deliver before 2028/9. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:56 - Feb 17 with 204 views | jasondozzell |
| Gorton and Denton By-election on 17:28 - Feb 17 by lowhouseblue |
i don't believe they were carefully chosen. that's entirely and solely the take of people who want to rubbish the speech and want to avoid engaging with it's content.
the 3 words were the exact opposite of carefully chosen - they are a cock up and whoever wrote the speech should be fired. alas this is a government which is being brought down by these sorts of communications cock ups - again and again and again.
without those 3 words people - like those on this thread - would actually have to engage with the points made in the speech, rather than point to the 3 words and walk away as if nothing more needs to be said. whoever put the 3 words into the speech is an incompetent idiot. |
Several problems here.
Firstly, of course they were carefully chosen. It's a PM keynote speech and they directly echo Enoch Powelll.
Frankly if they weren't chosen carefully, that is also very alarming because you presumably have speechwriters and spads without a grasp of basic 20th century British history. Does that suggest a government with political ability?
Secondly, you can address immigration (as one of many issues that affect people) in a calm, considered and principled way. You don't need to cosplay as the National Front. | | | |
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