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Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 13:25 - Mar 23 by LeoMuff
For goodness sake, did he even make contact there ? Compare that to Kipre just comical.
Did he make contact? Yep, looks to me like he did - a discrete but firm little shove in the back. Can totally see why it was given - though wouldn't be happy if it was against us!
I'm convinced limited captain VAR challenges will immeasurably improve football. Eg Portsmouth captain could have challenged and got that overturned. But whole reason this incident arose is that Esquerdinha thought he could dive and win a pen. It's almost all upside for him. Dive and possibly win a pen and goal for his team, or worst case, get a yellow card. Being honest & staying on his feet would only result in him getting a cross into a crowded box full of defenders. Most players are coached to do the former. Completely rational. I'd chance my arm and dive myself.
Now compare that with the incentives with limited captain challenges. Let's assume captains can make two per game. If you dive, flail your arms around and implore your captain to make a challenge, there can be two outcomes: 1) Captain challenges for what is a bullsh!t attempt to buy a pen. Video exposes that contact was inconsequential and penalty is denied. Diver has just deprived their team of a potentially game-deciding challenge. Hand of god or other clear injustice can subsequently happen, and it'll be tough titties. Diver feels like an idiot because they have been an idiot. Or 2) not even your own captain supports you in risking loss of a potentially game-deciding challenge, and it'll also make you look like an idiot.
Either way, you're less likely to dive. Football will become less a contest of which team has the more convincing professional cheats. Unlike current VAR, there'd be fewer delays because challenges would be made judiciously rather than for **all** goals, pens, and red cards as now. The purity of goal-joy, which perhaps more than any other factor, is why football is the best, most popular sport in the world, would at least partly be restored. Spectators will know unequivocally whether a goal has been scored bc they'll be able to observe whether the captain is challenging. No whistle/flag/captain-challenge = goal. Simple. Can confidently celebrate like a loon just like in VAR-less football.
Easy to give a decision like that in the 86th minute of a game that is already 4-1 and has no jeopardy in it. The best refs back their judgement and aren't afraid of making the big calls when it matters and the pressure is on.
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Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 14:40 - Mar 23 with 1379 views
Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 14:37 - Mar 23 by tractorboy1978
Easy to give a decision like that in the 86th minute of a game that is already 4-1 and has no jeopardy in it. The best refs back their judgement and aren't afraid of making the big calls when it matters and the pressure is on.
This is It in a nutshell, he bottled ours due to the lateness in the game, what was riding in it for us and Leicester.
Took the easy way out rather than do his job and upset people. I don’t think he could handle that and being called out for it and hence we are here with a clearly spurious report which stands no scrutiny
Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 14:01 - Mar 23 by grow_our_own
I'm convinced limited captain VAR challenges will immeasurably improve football. Eg Portsmouth captain could have challenged and got that overturned. But whole reason this incident arose is that Esquerdinha thought he could dive and win a pen. It's almost all upside for him. Dive and possibly win a pen and goal for his team, or worst case, get a yellow card. Being honest & staying on his feet would only result in him getting a cross into a crowded box full of defenders. Most players are coached to do the former. Completely rational. I'd chance my arm and dive myself.
Now compare that with the incentives with limited captain challenges. Let's assume captains can make two per game. If you dive, flail your arms around and implore your captain to make a challenge, there can be two outcomes: 1) Captain challenges for what is a bullsh!t attempt to buy a pen. Video exposes that contact was inconsequential and penalty is denied. Diver has just deprived their team of a potentially game-deciding challenge. Hand of god or other clear injustice can subsequently happen, and it'll be tough titties. Diver feels like an idiot because they have been an idiot. Or 2) not even your own captain supports you in risking loss of a potentially game-deciding challenge, and it'll also make you look like an idiot.
Either way, you're less likely to dive. Football will become less a contest of which team has the more convincing professional cheats. Unlike current VAR, there'd be fewer delays because challenges would be made judiciously rather than for **all** goals, pens, and red cards as now. The purity of goal-joy, which perhaps more than any other factor, is why football is the best, most popular sport in the world, would at least partly be restored. Spectators will know unequivocally whether a goal has been scored bc they'll be able to observe whether the captain is challenging. No whistle/flag/captain-challenge = goal. Simple. Can confidently celebrate like a loon just like in VAR-less football.
[Post edited 24 Mar 10:38]
"Eg Portsmouth captain could have challenged and got that overturned"
Won't happen. We've seen repeatedly that current and former refs just back each other as a matter of routine.
Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 17:45 - Mar 23 by Cheltenham_Blue
"Eg Portsmouth captain could have challenged and got that overturned"
Won't happen. We've seen repeatedly that current and former refs just back each other as a matter of routine.
Yes, but the incident might not have happened at all. Esquerdinha would have much less incentive to dive in the first place. Diving would be much riskier than now because you risk depriving your team of a precious challenge.
Has to be captains too, not manager. The whole objective is to minimise VAR delays and goal-uncertainty. If it's manager challenges, then word has to go to and from the bench, and there'll be a hold-up while manager watches their own replays. With captains, they can either make the decision themselves because they saw the injustice, or it'll be a quick player-to-player gesture without anyone watching replays. Plus spectators can more clearly see the captain signalling their challenge on the pitch than someone sitting on a bench with their head in a tablet.
[Post edited 23 Mar 22:24]
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Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 22:14 - Mar 23 with 643 views
Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 14:01 - Mar 23 by grow_our_own
I'm convinced limited captain VAR challenges will immeasurably improve football. Eg Portsmouth captain could have challenged and got that overturned. But whole reason this incident arose is that Esquerdinha thought he could dive and win a pen. It's almost all upside for him. Dive and possibly win a pen and goal for his team, or worst case, get a yellow card. Being honest & staying on his feet would only result in him getting a cross into a crowded box full of defenders. Most players are coached to do the former. Completely rational. I'd chance my arm and dive myself.
Now compare that with the incentives with limited captain challenges. Let's assume captains can make two per game. If you dive, flail your arms around and implore your captain to make a challenge, there can be two outcomes: 1) Captain challenges for what is a bullsh!t attempt to buy a pen. Video exposes that contact was inconsequential and penalty is denied. Diver has just deprived their team of a potentially game-deciding challenge. Hand of god or other clear injustice can subsequently happen, and it'll be tough titties. Diver feels like an idiot because they have been an idiot. Or 2) not even your own captain supports you in risking loss of a potentially game-deciding challenge, and it'll also make you look like an idiot.
Either way, you're less likely to dive. Football will become less a contest of which team has the more convincing professional cheats. Unlike current VAR, there'd be fewer delays because challenges would be made judiciously rather than for **all** goals, pens, and red cards as now. The purity of goal-joy, which perhaps more than any other factor, is why football is the best, most popular sport in the world, would at least partly be restored. Spectators will know unequivocally whether a goal has been scored bc they'll be able to observe whether the captain is challenging. No whistle/flag/captain-challenge = goal. Simple. Can confidently celebrate like a loon just like in VAR-less football.
[Post edited 24 Mar 10:38]
I am of the same view, but a few weeks ago had a conversation with a premier league ref who himself had just been briefed on the results from an u17 UEFA tournament where they trialled a referral system. Apparently the players and coaches hated it, with such limited understanding of the rules (yes, really) they said they would much rather leave it in the hands of those who know.
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Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 22:35 - Mar 23 with 569 views
Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 22:14 - Mar 23 by Durovigutum
I am of the same view, but a few weeks ago had a conversation with a premier league ref who himself had just been briefed on the results from an u17 UEFA tournament where they trialled a referral system. Apparently the players and coaches hated it, with such limited understanding of the rules (yes, really) they said they would much rather leave it in the hands of those who know.
I don't watch a lot of Rugby, so don't know how it works there, but watching a fair bit of cricket I'd say the key to why the referrals system works is about two things:
1) Technology is used to make objective decisions. Was that hitting the stump? Did the ball touch his bat? The third umpire isn't really called upon to exercise any judgement. So the referrer knows that if their judgement is better than the on-field umpire the referral will be successful. Same doesn't apply in football, you're dependent on the subjective judgement of the video ref being the same as yours.
2) Wickets change games but not like goals do. In football the first goal is so crucial, you'd almost never be tempted to save your review for a clearer-cut decision.
Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 22:14 - Mar 23 by Durovigutum
I am of the same view, but a few weeks ago had a conversation with a premier league ref who himself had just been briefed on the results from an u17 UEFA tournament where they trialled a referral system. Apparently the players and coaches hated it, with such limited understanding of the rules (yes, really) they said they would much rather leave it in the hands of those who know.
Would it be a bad thing if being a successful team meant at least one player, the captain, must have a functioning brain? If they must know the rules of the game, and when to challenge decisions? Footballers have a rep for being unintelligent, well here's the chance to make it more like cricket and rugby where captains have more responsibility than just calling the coin-toss. I doubt U17s football is the barometer of whether captain challenges can be a success. It's abundantly clear that divers like Esquerdinha seem to think they know the rules. If they really think they're being fouled, then let them stake a challenge on it, and hence risk the ire of their fans and captain. At the moment, cheating is a no-brainer.
[Post edited 23 Mar 22:41]
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Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 23:07 - Mar 23 with 504 views
Busby, look at the pen he gives QPR on 22:35 - Mar 23 by jayessess
I don't watch a lot of Rugby, so don't know how it works there, but watching a fair bit of cricket I'd say the key to why the referrals system works is about two things:
1) Technology is used to make objective decisions. Was that hitting the stump? Did the ball touch his bat? The third umpire isn't really called upon to exercise any judgement. So the referrer knows that if their judgement is better than the on-field umpire the referral will be successful. Same doesn't apply in football, you're dependent on the subjective judgement of the video ref being the same as yours.
2) Wickets change games but not like goals do. In football the first goal is so crucial, you'd almost never be tempted to save your review for a clearer-cut decision.
On the "first goal would always be challenged" point, this would be an implementation detail. If it was failing to improve compromised-goal experience that we have with today's VAR, then could reduce from two to a single challenge. Then captains will have a much tougher decision, and I doubt they'd always challenge the first goal.
Since VAR would be used less frequently overall, I'd like to see it expanded into all decision types. Many games are decided by an unjust first yellow that leads to a red (eg Tuanzebe at Villa last season), or a dodgy free-kick on the edge of the box. These can be just as infuriating as pen or straight-red incidents, yet because referrals are unlimited atm, VAR rightly doesn't want to get involved for fear of too many stoppages. One of the benefits of more judicious use of VAR via challenges is they could be used at the captain's discretion for any incident. They'd be free to challenge an innocuous ball-over-touch-line for a mid-pitch throw in if they really want, but they'd risk wasting their challenge for little pay-off.
On your judgement point. Yes VAR isn't perfect, and decisions aren't as black-and white as a sport like cricket. But accuracy greatly improves. VAR is right more often than a human in what is a fast sport. Busby gets overturned for our Leicester pen, Esquerdinha doesn't get a pen for QPR in this thread. Need to shift public perception away from the idea that a faceless VAR bureaucrat is interfering, to one where a captain with a visible face and public persona is intervening. Introducing this player ownership will improve the game.
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