| Survival is not about playing pretty football 09:53 - Sep 6 with 3842 views | muccletonjoe |
Hull have 7 points playing mostly, 5-4-1 , there has to be some reality introduced to our tactics , we are not going to break any teams down playing with 4 attacking players, we had one of our worst ever seasons doing that 2 years ago |  | | |  |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:15 - Sep 6 with 879 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:35 - Sep 6 by Adams |
Of course, they are outperforming their xG. They have the worst squad in the league by some distance, but they haven't conceded a goal and have kept the xG below 1.8 in all goals. They shouldn't be competitive with Villa and Man U with their team and were underdogs against Coventry.
They're showing the benefit of staying in games and making teams work hard for their chances instead of conceding goals from one pass like we are.
Hull deserves all the praise they have been getting for how well they have been set up tactically. They have been tactically perfect and are making the most of the players they have. It's very weird that you're trying to downplay it.
As for our style of play, there is a middle ground. I'm not asking us to play like Hull, but playing a little deeper and having a bit more in midfield is common sense. We were poor tactically in the previous two games. The first thing a promoted team needs to do is be hard to play against and not be a soft touch. Playing a high line when there's no pressure on the ball, when we have slow defenders, is beyond stupid. |
Like pointofblue and others, I'm also sick of this starry eyed treatment of Hull.
We're 3 games in, with a new manager and brand new team. Many of our players have only been in the door weeks or even days. They can barely know each other's names let alone their strengths, weaknesses and the patterns of play GON wants from them.
It's far too early to say whether his (or Hull's) plans will work.
I think we should be looking at and supporting ourselves rather than looking dreamily at whoever happens to be doing well (it was Sunderland and Leeds last season).
We get the same thing with affordable players who do well for other teams - oh we should've bought X, look at him now. It's beyond tedious.
It may well be that sticking to GON's plan means we get better and better at it over time, as the players get to know each other and their roles, until it becomes telepathic and bares fruit more regularly. It's over the whole season that counts, not 3 games at the start when the manager and players are almost all brand new. |  |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:17 - Sep 6 with 872 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:57 - Sep 6 by theworstcaseRomario |
But it was also well documented that Leeds switched to 3 CB’s last season around November last season because they were struggling, and it changed the course of their season.
“Leeds United transformed their season under manager Daniel Farke by shifting from a possession-based 4-3-3 formation to a more direct, stable 3-5-2 system. [1] ( https://www.premierleague.com/
Key Tactical ChangesFormation Shift: Manager Daniel Farke abandoned the wide 4-3-3 setup for a back-three/five-man defensive base (3-5-2), which brought much-needed defensive stability and stopped central areas from being exposed.”
Survival in the Prem starts with being defensively solid. We know from our last season in the Prem how clinical attackers are at this level, you need to prevent them having too many chances. |
Easier said than done. | |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:23 - Sep 6 with 856 views | pointofblue |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:35 - Sep 6 by Adams |
Of course, they are outperforming their xG. They have the worst squad in the league by some distance, but they haven't conceded a goal and have kept the xG below 1.8 in all goals. They shouldn't be competitive with Villa and Man U with their team and were underdogs against Coventry.
They're showing the benefit of staying in games and making teams work hard for their chances instead of conceding goals from one pass like we are.
Hull deserves all the praise they have been getting for how well they have been set up tactically. They have been tactically perfect and are making the most of the players they have. It's very weird that you're trying to downplay it.
As for our style of play, there is a middle ground. I'm not asking us to play like Hull, but playing a little deeper and having a bit more in midfield is common sense. We were poor tactically in the previous two games. The first thing a promoted team needs to do is be hard to play against and not be a soft touch. Playing a high line when there's no pressure on the ball, when we have slow defenders, is beyond stupid. |
Agree with your final paragraph but not the rest. I think then staying in games as been as much luck as judgement and it's a risk when you take that approach. At the moment, and for a while, Hull have been fortunate. Not just at this level but in the Championship. It shouldn't be sustainable but we'll see. [Post edited 6 Sep 13:23]
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:26 - Sep 6 with 846 views | BlueOura |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:15 - Sep 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Like pointofblue and others, I'm also sick of this starry eyed treatment of Hull.
We're 3 games in, with a new manager and brand new team. Many of our players have only been in the door weeks or even days. They can barely know each other's names let alone their strengths, weaknesses and the patterns of play GON wants from them.
It's far too early to say whether his (or Hull's) plans will work.
I think we should be looking at and supporting ourselves rather than looking dreamily at whoever happens to be doing well (it was Sunderland and Leeds last season).
We get the same thing with affordable players who do well for other teams - oh we should've bought X, look at him now. It's beyond tedious.
It may well be that sticking to GON's plan means we get better and better at it over time, as the players get to know each other and their roles, until it becomes telepathic and bares fruit more regularly. It's over the whole season that counts, not 3 games at the start when the manager and players are almost all brand new. |
Not to mention the fact we have already picked up 3 points in those games, which based on the fixtures and what you have outlined, is pretty much the most we could have hoped for. |  | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:26 - Sep 6 with 846 views | pointofblue |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:56 - Sep 6 by Wallingford_Boy |
Who would play right wing back? Furlong not good enough IMO, Ouatarra only played a few mins at end of each game so far and doesn’t seem ready to start yet.
Anyone else? |
I'd personally play Ouattara there. He has starting experience not just in the French top tier but Europe as well. Furlong as the back up option. It may be controversial but I'd consider changing it as soon as Saturday - it's worth bearing in mind Palace scored three goals away to an established Premier League team yesterday. There are teams we really need to pick up points against but nothing is going to be easy.
Scherpen
O'Shea - Diop - Greaves
Ouattara - Lukic - Palacios - Davis
Nunez - Enciso
Flemming | |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:41 - Sep 6 with 823 views | BlueBirdBlue |
Hull have scored three goals. Two were set pieces by centre backs.
Huddersfield started with 7 points from 3 games and then almost went down. What happens when their goals dry up? You could make the same argument for them to any degree but flipped.
We might become a bit more defensive, stop conceding and still score enough. They might start to lose games and then never discover a scoring touch.
It’s far too early to worry about that. We’ve played three games each. For all we know Liverpool win the league and United come second and our results look better. Or they both finish outside the top six and they look a lot worse.
Maybe GO’N used these games as free hits after banking the points to a) hope we pull off a big win by going for it which gives huge confidence for the season ahead or b) as a lesson to how quickly you can be punished at this level as a lesson for the season ahead.
The only real thing to worry about is that we have a point a game already, which keeps you up over a season usually, from 3 games against last seasons top 7. So at this stage, based on what we know, that looks decent.
Hull have also played potentially their easiest opponent of the season, a Villa team that seemingly can’t score and can’t win (1 shot on target in 270 minutes) so 4 points from 6 there is no real shock.
Start worrying about other teams and you’ll go insane. Our PPG is good. We’ve played well for large parts of each match. We’ve played some hard teams it appears and we’re several places above the drop.
That’s a bloody decent start. | | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:59 - Sep 6 with 806 views | unstableblue |
What did you think of the Sunderland game and tactics?
How do you think Leeds and Sunderland approached their tactics/system last season?
Do you not think with our new midfield and attacking line-up we can make a 4-2-3-1 work against lower opposition?
Do you think Hull’s low block is going to hold out for much longer? |  |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 14:37 - Sep 6 with 765 views | wischip |
Can we not just give it 10 games to see how this new team & manager of ours settles in ? I think that's what we used to do in seasons gone by before hitting the panic button after every match. |  | | |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:10 - Sep 6 with 718 views | Pettabelieveit |
How many clubs have you kept in the premier league, bud? | | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:17 - Sep 6 with 712 views | pointofblue |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:59 - Sep 6 by unstableblue |
What did you think of the Sunderland game and tactics?
How do you think Leeds and Sunderland approached their tactics/system last season?
Do you not think with our new midfield and attacking line-up we can make a 4-2-3-1 work against lower opposition?
Do you think Hull’s low block is going to hold out for much longer? |
Sunderland's approach was arguably pretty similar to Hull's. | |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:18 - Sep 6 with 706 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:26 - Sep 6 by pointofblue |
I'd personally play Ouattara there. He has starting experience not just in the French top tier but Europe as well. Furlong as the back up option. It may be controversial but I'd consider changing it as soon as Saturday - it's worth bearing in mind Palace scored three goals away to an established Premier League team yesterday. There are teams we really need to pick up points against but nothing is going to be easy.
Scherpen
O'Shea - Diop - Greaves
Ouattara - Lukic - Palacios - Davis
Nunez - Enciso
Flemming |
I just don’t see Lukic and Palacios as the long term partnership. You need a proper defensive midfielder in there.
Either play 3. Lukic, Palacios and Florentino. Or a 2 with Palacios and Florentino imo. |  |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:37 - Sep 6 with 687 views | Blue_Uprising |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:18 - Sep 6 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
I just don’t see Lukic and Palacios as the long term partnership. You need a proper defensive midfielder in there.
Either play 3. Lukic, Palacios and Florentino. Or a 2 with Palacios and Florentino imo. |
I think that’s probably the plan.
I.e Lukic seen as the replacement for Palacious later in the game (if Florentino has been fit)
I think 4231 is hopefully good enough for our games for teams around us
With some version of
541 / 532 / 4321 for top 6 encounters
or a permanent shift, if it appears we are facing issues in even the more supposedly competitive games.
Davis and Ouattara as wing backs in the 5
Lukic, palacious and Florentino/mattusiwa all playing together in the 3s |  | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:52 - Sep 6 with 676 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:37 - Sep 6 by Blue_Uprising |
I think that’s probably the plan.
I.e Lukic seen as the replacement for Palacious later in the game (if Florentino has been fit)
I think 4231 is hopefully good enough for our games for teams around us
With some version of
541 / 532 / 4321 for top 6 encounters
or a permanent shift, if it appears we are facing issues in even the more supposedly competitive games.
Davis and Ouattara as wing backs in the 5
Lukic, palacious and Florentino/mattusiwa all playing together in the 3s |
I disrespectfully forget about Azor cause I haven’t seen him in a while.
Palacios and Florentino
Lukic and Azor
Nunez and Ouatarra (versatile)
As a midfield room is very good. No excuse with that personnel when back to be so open in the middle of the park. Got a good blend of everything in there, should give us loads of options. | |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 00:30 - Sep 7 with 590 views | armchaircritic59 |
I don't think I'm going to judge their progress or anyone else's for that matter on the strength of 3 games. Come back after at least 6 and we'll take another look. |  | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 01:26 - Sep 7 with 565 views | Vic |
They haven’t survived yet! Let’s check back at the end of the season and see. |  |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 03:15 - Sep 7 with 537 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 11:00 - Sep 6 by franz_tyson |
It's early days.
A few weeks, replicating Xhaka was the key to survival.
Now its copying Hull. |
Sunderland done both though, wasn't just Xhaka, they only conceded 48 goals by getting the keeper correct and bringing in 3 starting defenders. |  |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 03:25 - Sep 7 with 527 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:35 - Sep 6 by Adams |
Of course, they are outperforming their xG. They have the worst squad in the league by some distance, but they haven't conceded a goal and have kept the xG below 1.8 in all goals. They shouldn't be competitive with Villa and Man U with their team and were underdogs against Coventry.
They're showing the benefit of staying in games and making teams work hard for their chances instead of conceding goals from one pass like we are.
Hull deserves all the praise they have been getting for how well they have been set up tactically. They have been tactically perfect and are making the most of the players they have. It's very weird that you're trying to downplay it.
As for our style of play, there is a middle ground. I'm not asking us to play like Hull, but playing a little deeper and having a bit more in midfield is common sense. We were poor tactically in the previous two games. The first thing a promoted team needs to do is be hard to play against and not be a soft touch. Playing a high line when there's no pressure on the ball, when we have slow defenders, is beyond stupid. |
Completely agree.
It's clear GON has built the squad around runners up top and a high press, so we are never going to be playing like Hull do. We have already scored goals this way as well.
Might be some concerns around this approach when I look at our defense, but the CM is very good. So, my main hope, is when this partnership settles, be it Palacios with Lukic, Palacios with Florentino, or all playing all three that hopefully we will look more solid.
However, we also need to be a bit smarter out of possession, can't give up that much space and the back 4 surely can't continue to play that high!
I am slightly worried that high press from the front means the other have to squeeze up as well and that will lead to Premier League and world class attackers easily get in behind.
Time will tell but we need to stay in better shape against the elite and pick our moments to be aggressive. [Post edited 7 Sep 3:29]
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 06:16 - Sep 7 with 479 views | Blue_Heath |
Hopefully the attacking philosophy will pay off when we play the so called 'lesser' teams.
Hull have a way of playing which is working atm but will be interesting to see what happens when someone gets an early goal against them. | |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 07:43 - Sep 7 with 438 views | Bluemike31 |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 10:56 - Sep 6 by Guthrum |
We seemed to do ok against Sunderland. It wasn't like we scored from our only two opportunities. We scored two at Old Trafford. We weren't without threat on Friday night.
Everyone was lauding the way we played in the first game of the season, our front-foot, high pressing, lively approach. People were excited. Now a couple of losses against two of the top teams in the division has turned lots of them into defence-obsessives, proposing that we rip up the entire summer's preparation and recruitment in order to stuff the back line at the price of becoming toothless.
All this because Hull managed to ambush ManC (at the MKM), beat a horredous Coventry and frustrate a Villa team struggling to sort themselves out, allegedly with mega-defensive tactics - which is how they were playing in the Championship too. |
Exactly, my God, knee jerk or what !!!! | | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:01 - Sep 7 with 355 views | Radlett_blue |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 14:37 - Sep 6 by wischip |
Can we not just give it 10 games to see how this new team & manager of ours settles in ? I think that's what we used to do in seasons gone by before hitting the panic button after every match. |
I think we're all a bit anxious after being overwhelmed 2 seasons ago that history will repeat itself, especially after 2 comfortable defeats against top teams. Let's wait & see what Palace & Everton bring. |  |
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:13 - Sep 7 with 342 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:01 - Sep 7 by Radlett_blue |
I think we're all a bit anxious after being overwhelmed 2 seasons ago that history will repeat itself, especially after 2 comfortable defeats against top teams. Let's wait & see what Palace & Everton bring. |
Man Utd wasn't exactly a comfortable defeat, albeit the result makes it look that way. We would have been good value for a lead at half time. And it sort of turned into one of those games where nothing went for us.
I don't think you can really read much into anything so far. We've won the game we wanted/needed to win and lost the two that most thought we would. We are quite clearly a better and more dangerous proposition than we were two seasons ago. | | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:06 - Sep 7 with 313 views | Cols21 |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 10:54 - Sep 6 by BloomBlue |
Leeds stayed up last season playing attacking football, they had 4 points after 4 games, and one of those was a 5-0 loss to Arsenal which could have easily ended 7 or 8 nil.
Brentford stayed up 6 seasons ago by basically staying with the same squad as they used in the Championship, but many people on this site said you have to spend millions to survive
The point being different approaches can still result in survival, but we're only at game 3.
I find it ironic that Leeds fans are often characterised as moaning morons, but last season they were relaxed after game 4 and four points. The vast majority accepted it was a solid start and with new players it would take time to build up an understanding. |
Leeds absolutely did not stay up playing attacking football last year. Their results improved when they switched to a more pragmatic system and approach. They then largely relied on physicality and set pieces built upon a very solid defensive set up (three centre backs, full backs playing as wing backs and a double pivot in front of the defence (one of whom was Ampadu who can also play centre back)).
Also the Leeds fans absolutely weren't relaxed after their start, Farke's position was precarious even beyond Christmas due to fan unrest. He'd won the majority over by the end of the season.
[Post edited 7 Sep 13:08]
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:41 - Sep 7 with 279 views | TheBoyBlue |
Hull have been impressive and fair play to them.
It's far too early yet to tell if their start is purely down to their tactics or due to a quirk of the fixture list/circumstances.
They undoubtedly caught Man Utd cold (as did we initially before everything that happened) and then carried that confidence and momentum into what was a Championship game in all but name and then into a home match against a Villa side still trying to find their feet.
We could've been less open at Old Trafford but bar a slip and that handball goal could've gone quite far into the game still 1-0 up.
That said, Hull's start could carry them a long way. [Post edited 8 Sep 21:36]
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| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:59 - Sep 7 with 252 views | dirtyboy |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 12:35 - Sep 6 by Adams |
Of course, they are outperforming their xG. They have the worst squad in the league by some distance, but they haven't conceded a goal and have kept the xG below 1.8 in all goals. They shouldn't be competitive with Villa and Man U with their team and were underdogs against Coventry.
They're showing the benefit of staying in games and making teams work hard for their chances instead of conceding goals from one pass like we are.
Hull deserves all the praise they have been getting for how well they have been set up tactically. They have been tactically perfect and are making the most of the players they have. It's very weird that you're trying to downplay it.
As for our style of play, there is a middle ground. I'm not asking us to play like Hull, but playing a little deeper and having a bit more in midfield is common sense. We were poor tactically in the previous two games. The first thing a promoted team needs to do is be hard to play against and not be a soft touch. Playing a high line when there's no pressure on the ball, when we have slow defenders, is beyond stupid. |
Our defence, speeds already recorded this season.
Diop 34.1
Davis 34.0
O'Shea 32.3
Greaves 32.2
None of those are slow.
None of them are going to be as quick as Barcola or Isak either. If you get isolated, then you're in trouble, as we saw.
We've played well but conceded 1.9 more goals than we should have which isn't a great start, but it's just the start, indicative of mistakes, things average out.
Crystal Palace will be interesting in so much they seem be be singling out Canvot for giving goals away.
They seem to be pressing high (maybe it's a French thing) like us and I suspect it's going to come back down to counter attacks and who's the least wasteful. |  | | |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 16:29 - Sep 7 with 194 views | Radlett_blue |
| Survival is not about playing pretty football on 13:59 - Sep 7 by dirtyboy |
Our defence, speeds already recorded this season.
Diop 34.1
Davis 34.0
O'Shea 32.3
Greaves 32.2
None of those are slow.
None of them are going to be as quick as Barcola or Isak either. If you get isolated, then you're in trouble, as we saw.
We've played well but conceded 1.9 more goals than we should have which isn't a great start, but it's just the start, indicative of mistakes, things average out.
Crystal Palace will be interesting in so much they seem be be singling out Canvot for giving goals away.
They seem to be pressing high (maybe it's a French thing) like us and I suspect it's going to come back down to counter attacks and who's the least wasteful. |
Yes, I don't think the issue is our defenders as such, more whether we should persist with playing such a high line. Man U & Liverpool are arguably better placed to exploit this than Palace & Everton, so we shall see. | |
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