| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? 07:37 - May 16 with 3177 views | wkj |
Some might say I have an obsession with Arsenal, which is fair to a degree. I wouldn't consider myself a fan, but they are a team I always enjoy seeing do well.
There is a debate going on right now as to whether Arsenal did a bottle job or not. The two sides of the coin are
Yes - Arsenal were 5 points clear and failed to win some easy game on paper.
No - Arsenal finishing 2nd is above expectations as they were predicted to finish outside of top 4
It is fair to say Arsenal are thin with their squad depth and the winter world cup seemed to hit them hard defensively. Mind you, Man City lost their left back (João Cancelo) and have been playing centre halves there and have seemed to hit their peak for the season there after.
Interesting debate imho. [Post edited 16 May 2023 8:13]
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 07:45 - May 16 with 2763 views | RobTheMonk |
I think not. Man City generally really get going in the last third of the season. They've also got De Bruyne and Haaland which seems to be like having a cheat code at the moment.
City are also a team full of top established players whereas Arsenal have a bit more of a younger, coming through team.
Arsenal were overachieving, no doubt about it. It does bode well for next season though. |  | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 07:51 - May 16 with 2740 views | Metal_Hacker |
I don't think so personally
Long hard season 40/50 games even with rotation taken into account Arsenal's is nothing like City's squad
For me it's caught up with them and the lack of experience in that position cost them ...they didn't bottle it |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:09 - May 16 with 2710 views | Herbivore |
Think it's most likely a combination of the pressure getting to them a bit - most of that squad hasn't been through a title race - and the physical demands of the season catching up with them. They aren't blessed with the ability to rotate like City, they have a much smaller core of quality players and some of them have picked up injuries or looked a bit off the pace and they've not had replacements of more or less the same level of ability. I think there is an element of them struggling mentally though as a few injuries and a bit of tiredness doesn't explain just how badly they've struggled recently, including against some very mediocre sides. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:22 - May 16 with 2679 views | Sparky85 |
I also agree that it is not. Ask anyone at the beginning of the season whether Arsenal would have been comfortable in 2nd place and to still be in the title race with a few games to go and we probably wouldn't have believed it.
Last year, yes they bottled it finishing outside the top 4 when they were in such a strong position. Man C are just too good this year and have incredible depth to the squad. Arsenal lost Saliba and have to replace with Holding (no disrespect intended). Man C have 5 international players to choose from at centre half, one of which they are playing in Midfield as he is so good on the ball.
I love the project they have created though. Backed Arteta to bring a certain style of play and type of player and are reaping the benefits now. Hope they continue to improve |  | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:25 - May 16 with 2669 views | wkj |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:22 - May 16 by Sparky85 |
I also agree that it is not. Ask anyone at the beginning of the season whether Arsenal would have been comfortable in 2nd place and to still be in the title race with a few games to go and we probably wouldn't have believed it.
Last year, yes they bottled it finishing outside the top 4 when they were in such a strong position. Man C are just too good this year and have incredible depth to the squad. Arsenal lost Saliba and have to replace with Holding (no disrespect intended). Man C have 5 international players to choose from at centre half, one of which they are playing in Midfield as he is so good on the ball.
I love the project they have created though. Backed Arteta to bring a certain style of play and type of player and are reaping the benefits now. Hope they continue to improve |
I must admit I was a bit of a sceptic of Arteta (probably due to the MASS over exposure of him, and the fact he always looks a bit like an AI render on web players)
That said, he has over achieved and really settled a fractious fanbase. It will be interesting to see how they come out to play this transfer window as I bet this season will have raised their stock considerably. | |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:26 - May 16 with 2665 views | SaigonTractor |
City are so far ahead of the rest of the league in terms of spending power that the only team who can "bottle" the league are City themselves.
And I guess probably Newcastle at some point soon. |  | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:29 - May 16 with 2644 views | TractorCam |
I'd say yes as they have been top for 93% of the season. It doesn't take away from the fact they've had a good season, but from the position they were in then yes they have bottled it. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:32 - May 16 with 2623 views | wkj |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:26 - May 16 by SaigonTractor |
City are so far ahead of the rest of the league in terms of spending power that the only team who can "bottle" the league are City themselves.
And I guess probably Newcastle at some point soon. |
I usually take a bit of joy seeing Man City get pipped in the Champions league - not just because of the money but there were genuinely rivals about 20 years ago and were easy to hate.
I suppose this opens a new debate if Pep blows the CL again this season whether or not Pep has actually been a success there.
Newcastle are an interesting case as Eddie Howe was surely a transitional manager, but by all accounts he's actually put Newcastle ahead of schedule without a total bonanza in the transfer market, that is to say, the inevitable bonanza that Newcastle are going to have. | |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:37 - May 16 with 2593 views | Herbivore |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:26 - May 16 by SaigonTractor |
City are so far ahead of the rest of the league in terms of spending power that the only team who can "bottle" the league are City themselves.
And I guess probably Newcastle at some point soon. |
Not sure the likes of United and Chelsea are way behind City in terms of spending power. Would be interesting to look at net spend of the big clubs over the last 5 years, I don't think City are as big an outlier as people think. | |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:41 - May 16 with 2585 views | wkj |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:37 - May 16 by Herbivore |
Not sure the likes of United and Chelsea are way behind City in terms of spending power. Would be interesting to look at net spend of the big clubs over the last 5 years, I don't think City are as big an outlier as people think. |
The gap is closing, and interestingly teams like Everton are showing that net spend isn't always a catalyst for success. It is a bit distressing to see how inflated the financials of football are becoming - it wasn't pleasant 15 years ago, but now we have multiple teams with figurative bottomless pits of investment. FFFP hasn't really seemed to do a whole lot to stifle he process either.
I am a big supporter of team wage caps (not necessarily individual wage caps), but unless it comes from FIFA or UEFA I doubt that will happen any time soon. | |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:49 - May 16 with 2571 views | dezb |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:37 - May 16 by Herbivore |
Not sure the likes of United and Chelsea are way behind City in terms of spending power. Would be interesting to look at net spend of the big clubs over the last 5 years, I don't think City are as big an outlier as people think. |
Indeed. City's net spend on transfers is actually lower than 9 other clubs in the last 5 years. Their mass spending ended a far few years ago now to build the squad and it is largely one or two in and one or two out now as Pep is pretty ruthless and moves players on. They will of course be paying some obscene wages in comparison. Whilst they obviously have the firepower money wise, they're just a lot better run than so many clubs. | | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:54 - May 16 with 2545 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
Hate the phrase "bottled it"
Even when Arsenal top Man City were still the Faves with the bookies, and they've just gone on something like 14 wins in 15. Arsenal second youngest team in the league just run out of steam. Good season for them |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 09:03 - May 16 with 2517 views | JakeITFC |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:29 - May 16 by TractorCam |
I'd say yes as they have been top for 93% of the season. It doesn't take away from the fact they've had a good season, but from the position they were in then yes they have bottled it. |
Just the nature of the way the fixtures fell though for a lot of that - even when they were flying it felt like those two games against City would be their undoing. |  | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 09:05 - May 16 with 2508 views | Herbivore |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:49 - May 16 by dezb |
Indeed. City's net spend on transfers is actually lower than 9 other clubs in the last 5 years. Their mass spending ended a far few years ago now to build the squad and it is largely one or two in and one or two out now as Pep is pretty ruthless and moves players on. They will of course be paying some obscene wages in comparison. Whilst they obviously have the firepower money wise, they're just a lot better run than so many clubs. |
They're also, apparently, only the third biggest spenders on wages and are closer to Liverpool levels of wage spending than United: https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-arse
I think because it's 'new' money and because it comes from an oil state people are much more snippy about City's spending compared to others. United and Chelsea have been financially doping for years and people have just become used to it. If you factor in wage spend and nrt transfer spend, City are outperforming a number of clubs but there's a reluctance to give them credit for it. | |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 09:09 - May 16 with 2497 views | Radlett_blue |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 07:45 - May 16 by RobTheMonk |
I think not. Man City generally really get going in the last third of the season. They've also got De Bruyne and Haaland which seems to be like having a cheat code at the moment.
City are also a team full of top established players whereas Arsenal have a bit more of a younger, coming through team.
Arsenal were overachieving, no doubt about it. It does bode well for next season though. |
Indeed, I think Arsenal have run out of steam, rather than cracking under the pressure. I'm sure their key players have played more minutes than Man City's & that's now caught up with them. with their deep squad, City are much better able to rotate their players. If Arsenal keep & add constructively to their squad in the summer e.g. signing Declan Rice & maybe Danny Maddison, they should be challengers again, but City still resemble an unstoppable juggernaut. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 09:23 - May 16 with 2464 views | clive_baker |
Not. They've had a few mediocre results of late but they've been excellent all season and if they land on 87 points they'll be 2nd, way clear of 3rd and that's a brilliant season for them. Arteta is doing an excellent job. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 10:44 - May 16 with 2403 views | JDB23 |
Yes they did bottle it. Obviously no one expected them to be here at the start of the season and they’ve still had a very good year, but it’s the manner of their collapse. If they had some of the poor results spread out over the year then it wouldn’t be so bad, but they got themselves into a position where no team has not won the league from before and they’ve blown it.
Despite ours and Plymouth’s form I’d still say Sheffield Weds bottled promotion, even getting 96 points. They got themselves in a great position and chucked it away against some very poor teams when the pressure was on. I don’t see much of a difference other than expectation, but once you’ve got to that position, preseason expectation really doesn’t matter. | | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 11:24 - May 16 with 2347 views | Guthrum |
I'd say it's more a stumble. Three of that points shift were an away loss at Man City, which was always going to be a very tricky fixture. Plus even when they were five clear in late April, City had games in hand, facing a pretty easy run themselves.
After all, this is Arsenal's first season challenging for the top spot in several years. A good analog might be Liverpool in 2018-19, just falling short after their best campaign is some time. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 11:39 - May 16 with 2321 views | xrayspecs |
No. Arsenal have been a really good side this season but are second best to City. City had a slow start and were seven points behind Arsenal at the turn of the year, after sixteen games. Since then, they have upped their level and slowly reeled Arsenal in.
Arsenal have had some disappointing results over recent months, but hardly a bottle job.
Best team will win the league, second best team will be second. | | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 11:50 - May 16 with 2308 views | jayessess |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 08:49 - May 16 by dezb |
Indeed. City's net spend on transfers is actually lower than 9 other clubs in the last 5 years. Their mass spending ended a far few years ago now to build the squad and it is largely one or two in and one or two out now as Pep is pretty ruthless and moves players on. They will of course be paying some obscene wages in comparison. Whilst they obviously have the firepower money wise, they're just a lot better run than so many clubs. |
Think that's partly a "poor man's coat" thing (ie. having the money to buy better in the first place meaning you don't have to constantly discard/replace).
For example, City paid £51m for Haaland, whilst Liverpool spent £85m on Nunez, then partially because Nunez struggled, they spent another £45m on Gakpo. Whilst Liverpool were selling their 2nd-best player for £35m to realise a bit of value before his contract ran down, City were selling two forwards who'd become peripheral for £70m.
City's negative net transfer spend there is a sign of their financial muscle, Liverpool high net spend of their relative weakness. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 11:54 - May 16 with 2303 views | Illinoisblue |
Arsenal had a ridiculously good first half of the season but have had a terrible last two months. They’ve still overachieved given their lack of squad depth.
Oh, and they’re also up against the financial cheats of Man City. 115 charges against them - should be mentioned in every match report. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 12:02 - May 16 with 2286 views | GlasgowBlue |
in the context of finishing 5th last season and previously finishing 8th, 8th, 5th, 6th and 5th in the previous 5 seasons, to finish as runners up and in the Champions League is a remarkable achievement by Arteta.
Like Sheffield Wednesday v us, I don't see it as a bottle job or collapse. Over the course of a season Manchester City were simply the better team with the better squad and the better resources. [Post edited 16 May 2023 12:08]
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 12:29 - May 16 with 2241 views | BiGDonnie |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 07:45 - May 16 by RobTheMonk |
I think not. Man City generally really get going in the last third of the season. They've also got De Bruyne and Haaland which seems to be like having a cheat code at the moment.
City are also a team full of top established players whereas Arsenal have a bit more of a younger, coming through team.
Arsenal were overachieving, no doubt about it. It does bode well for next season though. |
Showed this thread to an Arsenal fan at work and all he could comment on was how cool your avatar and user name was. Thought you should know. |  |
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| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 12:30 - May 16 with 2236 views | RobTheMonk |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 12:29 - May 16 by BiGDonnie |
Showed this thread to an Arsenal fan at work and all he could comment on was how cool your avatar and user name was. Thought you should know. |
At least someone appreciates it haha! | | | |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 12:44 - May 16 with 2202 views | HighgateBlue |
| Arsenal: Bottle Job or not? on 11:24 - May 16 by Guthrum |
I'd say it's more a stumble. Three of that points shift were an away loss at Man City, which was always going to be a very tricky fixture. Plus even when they were five clear in late April, City had games in hand, facing a pretty easy run themselves.
After all, this is Arsenal's first season challenging for the top spot in several years. A good analog might be Liverpool in 2018-19, just falling short after their best campaign is some time. |
Yes the Man City away match is a very good point. If Arsenal had won that, Arsenal would be 2 points clear now, albeit having played a game more. It would have caused a six point swing (a six pointer, as they increasingly rarely say).
I'm sure that some of Arsenal's stumble has been down to the physical and mental pressure of trying to win a tough league against a fabulous team with a fabulous coach. If one wants to refer to mental and endurance imperfections as lacking "bottle", or "bottling" it, then fine, but it's just an unpleasant way of characterising an imperfection. Nobody can seriously say that Arsenal's mental toughness has been laughably bad, it's just maybe dipped from seriously impressive levels for a short time. |  | | |
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