| Vaccine Passports .... 15:19 - Feb 23 with 3649 views | Crawfordsboot |
Are they discriminatory against those who don't want a vaccine, and/or those who can't have a vaccine?
Are those who refuse a vaccination right to argue civil liberty defence or are they selfish busteds who ignore their moral responsibility to society?
Would civil liberty vaccine refusers also expect the right to drive through a town centre at 100 mph? |  | | |  |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:20 - Feb 23 with 2520 views | LeistonBlue |
No. |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:22 - Feb 23 with 2514 views | stringy |
are the passports intended to speed up access for those who are vaccinated, rather than block access to those without?
I work in Greece each summer and there seems to be a lot of muttering about this (I think they will set up their own protocols as opposed to trying to get entire EU to agree), and I *thought* it would be those without vaccine - but with negative PCR test pre-travel - might be able to enter but would have to do the whole quarantine thing |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:37 - Feb 23 with 2452 views | J2BLUE |
Who cares? If you have been offered a vaccine and have turned it down for non medical reasons then the consequences are yours to own. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:44 - Feb 23 with 2406 views | tractordownsouth |
Although I don’t agree with it, I can see the logic in the argument that suggests it’s age discrimination against the young who won’t be offered it for a while.
However, it isn’t discrimination against people who are offered the vaccine but refused. It’s their personal choice to refuse but by making that choice they are also deciding to restrict what they can do in future. Their personal freedom shouldn’t include the freedom to infect others with the virus. Although of course it’s the “personal responsibility” types that are unironically making this argument and not understanding that the notions of responsibility and consequences apply to them and not just other petiole . |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:46 - Feb 23 with 2390 views | SpruceMoose |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:37 - Feb 23 by J2BLUE |
Who cares? If you have been offered a vaccine and have turned it down for non medical reasons then the consequences are yours to own. |
He shoots he scores. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:49 - Feb 23 with 2380 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:46 - Feb 23 by SpruceMoose |
He shoots he scores. |
Indeed.
He'll certainly get some push back when that post is seen though.
SB |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:52 - Feb 23 with 2361 views | Mookamoo |
I assume any vaccine passport would be used for international travel. If so, the EU and possibly the US will soon require proof of vaccination to enter the countries anyway.
Wether it's a passport or certificate, most are going to have to prove they have been vaccinated to go anywhere.
It it just the word Passport that is getting people in a tizzy? |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:57 - Feb 23 with 2337 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:52 - Feb 23 by Mookamoo |
I assume any vaccine passport would be used for international travel. If so, the EU and possibly the US will soon require proof of vaccination to enter the countries anyway.
Wether it's a passport or certificate, most are going to have to prove they have been vaccinated to go anywhere.
It it just the word Passport that is getting people in a tizzy? |
The Israeli system isn't for international travel but for allowing people to attend things internally:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/19/covid-vaccinated-israelis-to-enjoy
SB | | | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:00 - Feb 23 with 2319 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:52 - Feb 23 by Mookamoo |
I assume any vaccine passport would be used for international travel. If so, the EU and possibly the US will soon require proof of vaccination to enter the countries anyway.
Wether it's a passport or certificate, most are going to have to prove they have been vaccinated to go anywhere.
It it just the word Passport that is getting people in a tizzy? |
I genuinely think some of them assume that its the thin edge of the wedge. First they can see you have had the vaccine, next they'll be looking up your long term addiction to pain killers.
I couldn't give 2 hits to be honest, I just want to be able to do stuff again, If that means you know when I had Herpes, knock yourself out, I'm clear now. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:02 - Feb 23 with 2307 views | bluelagos |
I'm not a fan. Reckon they'll be needed for transport by air.
Don't see this govt making them compulsory (Could do, but don't see it)
Locally some venues may adopt them (as is their right) - most won't imho - why would you adopt something than means around 1/3 of your potential customers are turned away? And why would you adopt something that is a barrier to your business?
So if pubs adopted the policy - and if a group of 10 were going out - then if there was 1 refusnik in the 10 - they all go elsewhere. So the idea that it will be widely adopted - just don't see it happening tbh. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:04 - Feb 23 with 2304 views | J2BLUE |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:49 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue |
Indeed.
He'll certainly get some push back when that post is seen though.
SB |
From Bankster? People can choose to drive after 10 pints, it doesn't mean you have to hand over the keys to your car or get in the passenger seat.
There must be personal responsibility. By all means refuse a vaccine but if society doesn't accept you putting them at risk that's your problem. The vaccines aren't 100% effective and it looks like they cut transmission to some degree so anyone choosing not to have one for non medical reasons has refused to cut the chances of them transmitting the virus to people who have been vaccinated but are still possibly susceptible while they benefit from others being vaccinated.
Maybe someone will point something out that I haven't considered but if they are going with the "mah freedomz" argument it's not going to work. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:08 - Feb 23 with 2278 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:44 - Feb 23 by tractordownsouth |
Although I don’t agree with it, I can see the logic in the argument that suggests it’s age discrimination against the young who won’t be offered it for a while.
However, it isn’t discrimination against people who are offered the vaccine but refused. It’s their personal choice to refuse but by making that choice they are also deciding to restrict what they can do in future. Their personal freedom shouldn’t include the freedom to infect others with the virus. Although of course it’s the “personal responsibility” types that are unironically making this argument and not understanding that the notions of responsibility and consequences apply to them and not just other petiole . |
Whilst I would have (indeed do have since I am one of the lucky ones) every sympathy with those younger than me who are awaiting the jab I think it is wrong to argue discrimination if the unvaccinated had to wait before gaining access to overseas travel, or even internal events or bars. There are many things in life that are not equal but are not discrimination. The young are not being denied the jab - there is just a risk based sequence for getting it done.
As to people who refuse to have the jab - I think I accept that to do so is their right - I just wish I could hear a little bit more from them about first considering their moral responsibility to the rest of us before they exercise that right.
All I seem to hear is the bland statement that its their right and therefore they are not going to have it. | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:09 - Feb 23 with 2270 views | Mookamoo |
I'm struggling to see what UK domestic hospitality businesses would use it. Maybe nightclubs who have people on the door to police it. Maybe festivals as part of the booking process?
I can see it being a requirement as part of your work contract and becoming the norm. Maybe similar to the DBS system where you provide your number and they cross check it. GP surgeries would then update a central database of those who are up to date. | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:11 - Feb 23 with 2258 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:02 - Feb 23 by bluelagos |
I'm not a fan. Reckon they'll be needed for transport by air.
Don't see this govt making them compulsory (Could do, but don't see it)
Locally some venues may adopt them (as is their right) - most won't imho - why would you adopt something than means around 1/3 of your potential customers are turned away? And why would you adopt something that is a barrier to your business?
So if pubs adopted the policy - and if a group of 10 were going out - then if there was 1 refusnik in the 10 - they all go elsewhere. So the idea that it will be widely adopted - just don't see it happening tbh. |
I think you're right. that will be the reality | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:14 - Feb 23 with 2228 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:09 - Feb 23 by Mookamoo |
I'm struggling to see what UK domestic hospitality businesses would use it. Maybe nightclubs who have people on the door to police it. Maybe festivals as part of the booking process?
I can see it being a requirement as part of your work contract and becoming the norm. Maybe similar to the DBS system where you provide your number and they cross check it. GP surgeries would then update a central database of those who are up to date. |
"I'm struggling to see what UK domestic hospitality businesses would use it"
Why do you think it would be their choice?
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:14 - Feb 23 with 2227 views | Plums |
Those who ‘don’t want’ a vaccine are discriminatory against society.
Vaccine passports have been around for years. Holiday makers often need to get their jabs before travel and have evidence they’ve had them. I see no issue here. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:16 - Feb 23 with 2208 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:08 - Feb 23 by Crawfordsboot |
Whilst I would have (indeed do have since I am one of the lucky ones) every sympathy with those younger than me who are awaiting the jab I think it is wrong to argue discrimination if the unvaccinated had to wait before gaining access to overseas travel, or even internal events or bars. There are many things in life that are not equal but are not discrimination. The young are not being denied the jab - there is just a risk based sequence for getting it done.
As to people who refuse to have the jab - I think I accept that to do so is their right - I just wish I could hear a little bit more from them about first considering their moral responsibility to the rest of us before they exercise that right.
All I seem to hear is the bland statement that its their right and therefore they are not going to have it. |
Refusniks can speak for themselves.
But the two (outside of TWTD) I know well, are both are scared of the vaccine believing it untested for its long term side effects. And it is untested for it's long term side effects, that is a fact.
Now I'll be taking the vaccine and am happy to (and do) encourage them to do so too. But to seek to label them as selfish and/or to punish them doesn't sit easy with me. It feels like a kneejerk reaction from people unable to empathise with those who are genuinely scared at the prospect of taking the vaccine.
They are not bad people, or selfish people. They simply have a different approach to risk than I do and/or spend too much time reading sh1te on the internet. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:17 - Feb 23 with 2202 views | footers |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:04 - Feb 23 by J2BLUE |
From Bankster? People can choose to drive after 10 pints, it doesn't mean you have to hand over the keys to your car or get in the passenger seat.
There must be personal responsibility. By all means refuse a vaccine but if society doesn't accept you putting them at risk that's your problem. The vaccines aren't 100% effective and it looks like they cut transmission to some degree so anyone choosing not to have one for non medical reasons has refused to cut the chances of them transmitting the virus to people who have been vaccinated but are still possibly susceptible while they benefit from others being vaccinated.
Maybe someone will point something out that I haven't considered but if they are going with the "mah freedomz" argument it's not going to work. |
Good post, eggers.
What most people forget about 'muh freedoms' is that our freedoms are bound together by social contract. And despite the Tories' best efforts to pit us all against each other, we must recognise our personal responsbility as part of a collective responsibility to our fellow citizens.
In other words, don't be a tool and get the jab. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:17 - Feb 23 with 2194 views | StokieBlue |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:04 - Feb 23 by J2BLUE |
From Bankster? People can choose to drive after 10 pints, it doesn't mean you have to hand over the keys to your car or get in the passenger seat.
There must be personal responsibility. By all means refuse a vaccine but if society doesn't accept you putting them at risk that's your problem. The vaccines aren't 100% effective and it looks like they cut transmission to some degree so anyone choosing not to have one for non medical reasons has refused to cut the chances of them transmitting the virus to people who have been vaccinated but are still possibly susceptible while they benefit from others being vaccinated.
Maybe someone will point something out that I haven't considered but if they are going with the "mah freedomz" argument it's not going to work. |
Well he will object to everything anyway but I wasn't actually thinking specifically of him.
It's been covered in this thread now already.
SB | | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:18 - Feb 23 with 2182 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:14 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue |
"I'm struggling to see what UK domestic hospitality businesses would use it"
Why do you think it would be their choice?
SB |
Every venue has a ROAR - so surely any business can adopt it if it sees fit?
Discrimination law prevents you discriminating on the basis of race, gender etc. Can't see why discriminating against non vaccinated people would be illegal? | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:19 - Feb 23 with 2172 views | J2BLUE |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:17 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue |
Well he will object to everything anyway but I wasn't actually thinking specifically of him.
It's been covered in this thread now already.
SB |
I actually agree with Lagos and doubt it will happen anyway. The Tories will put the economy first and to be fair, once most of the risk has been taken away, it wouldn't necessarily be the worst choice. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:20 - Feb 23 with 2159 views | Big_Jase |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 15:44 - Feb 23 by tractordownsouth |
Although I don’t agree with it, I can see the logic in the argument that suggests it’s age discrimination against the young who won’t be offered it for a while.
However, it isn’t discrimination against people who are offered the vaccine but refused. It’s their personal choice to refuse but by making that choice they are also deciding to restrict what they can do in future. Their personal freedom shouldn’t include the freedom to infect others with the virus. Although of course it’s the “personal responsibility” types that are unironically making this argument and not understanding that the notions of responsibility and consequences apply to them and not just other petiole . |
Personally the only issue I would have with this, is that younger people of good health have essentially given up a year of their life to protect older people and those who are medically vulnerable. I think this would then be grossly unfair as we won't be getting our vaccine until later, if we have to continue to not be able to go out and socialise in venues or go on holiday and those who we were protecting by locking down could go out freely. |  |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:25 - Feb 23 with 2122 views | WD19 |
The losers ribbons. |  | | |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:25 - Feb 23 with 2124 views | J2BLUE |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:20 - Feb 23 by Big_Jase |
Personally the only issue I would have with this, is that younger people of good health have essentially given up a year of their life to protect older people and those who are medically vulnerable. I think this would then be grossly unfair as we won't be getting our vaccine until later, if we have to continue to not be able to go out and socialise in venues or go on holiday and those who we were protecting by locking down could go out freely. |
I think it would have to be some record of whether you have taken it, turned it down or not yet eligible. I'd only consider turning it down of those three to be good reasons for not allowing entry. There's certainly no need to punish the young for something that isn't their fault. | |
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| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:27 - Feb 23 with 2113 views | bluelagos |
| Vaccine Passports .... on 16:19 - Feb 23 by J2BLUE |
I actually agree with Lagos and doubt it will happen anyway. The Tories will put the economy first and to be fair, once most of the risk has been taken away, it wouldn't necessarily be the worst choice. |
Welcome to sensible club ;-)
On a serious note - the ability to listen to arguments and reconsider your opinion is one many seem to have lost at the moment. I did at the end of lockdown 1 - when I was keen we left lockdown probably a month earlier than many others. And I changed my mind, not least due to some of the very well made arguments made by some on here at the time.
And it's not a problem people having different opinions either. Some people will be very much in favour of a passport scheme, have no issues with that view. Just don't agree it. [Post edited 23 Feb 2021 16:28]
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