| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? 11:20 - Aug 22 with 14668 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Any thoughts? |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:24 - Aug 22 with 2873 views | Mullet |
Depends what you mean by woo. The claims it's gotten infertile people pregnant and cured cancer seem demonstrably so.
However, for muscular problems it's helped me. Most likely because it helps release the tension that usually causes the issues.
It's certainly a complimentary therapy not a full medical system. The biggest problem is that traditional chinese medicine like the language and culture is so old and alien to Western thinking it doesn't translate across well at all.
Therefore its very hard to separate all of the BS. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:34 - Aug 22 with 2855 views | StokieBlue |
There are a number of formal studies which show it's no better than placebo.
An example.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110324104147.htm
Of course you'll also find studies saying it works miracles.
Also worth noting it's not totally without risk as well.
SB |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:35 - Aug 22 with 2851 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:24 - Aug 22 by Mullet |
Depends what you mean by woo. The claims it's gotten infertile people pregnant and cured cancer seem demonstrably so.
However, for muscular problems it's helped me. Most likely because it helps release the tension that usually causes the issues.
It's certainly a complimentary therapy not a full medical system. The biggest problem is that traditional chinese medicine like the language and culture is so old and alien to Western thinking it doesn't translate across well at all.
Therefore its very hard to separate all of the BS. |
Good point....I guess I was thinking particularly of pain relief/muscular issues as this post is largely inspired after listening to a vet extolling its virtues on radio Suffolk yesterday.
I kind of wondered if some might throw the baby out with the bath water. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:41 - Aug 22 with 2830 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:35 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Good point....I guess I was thinking particularly of pain relief/muscular issues as this post is largely inspired after listening to a vet extolling its virtues on radio Suffolk yesterday.
I kind of wondered if some might throw the baby out with the bath water. |
It did help my former old dog with his arthritis, but not me with my back problems. However, acupressure did help my back - it's also an ancient Chinese treatment but v. different to acupuncture - more like physiotherapy (practitioners used to do a full NHS physiotherapy course & then 2 years specialist training after that, when I had treatment but that was 15 years ago now). |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:49 - Aug 22 with 2826 views | StokieBlue |
"A scientist experience" doesn't offset the countless formal studies done by scientists proving it isn't any better than placebo.
It doesn't work from a medical standpoint and has been proven not to. However there could be a possible placebo element but that is true of many things. The BMJ even state that doctors should not perscribe it for pain relief as there is no evidence it works after decades of study.
Why don't you read some studies rather than taking an interview off the radio and then you can make an informed decision yourself.
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:00 - Aug 22 with 2807 views | manchego |
I did my achilles once and it fixed that.
I don't really mind if it was placebo or not. It was the only thing ( after a lot of attempts ) that worked. |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:01 - Aug 22 with 2806 views | NthQldITFC |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:49 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
"A scientist experience" doesn't offset the countless formal studies done by scientists proving it isn't any better than placebo.
It doesn't work from a medical standpoint and has been proven not to. However there could be a possible placebo element but that is true of many things. The BMJ even state that doctors should not perscribe it for pain relief as there is no evidence it works after decades of study.
Why don't you read some studies rather than taking an interview off the radio and then you can make an informed decision yourself.
SB |
Like most things, it's hard to be confident in providing a definitive works|doesn't work answer. In some cases, perhaps where the penetration (if you will) is directly at the site of the problem, the physical wound from the needle must surely stimulate some kind of response from the body, potentially beneficial. But it's impossible to do a truly controlled experiment of this kind, of sufficient statistical value on something as complex as a the human animal.
So for me, I wouldn't expect it to stop me smoking, but I would be prepared to have needles jabbed into my dodgy knee in the hope that it might do some good. I would, of course, not be able to say afterwards that it definitively 'had worked' in the event of a perceived improvement. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:09 - Aug 22 with 2800 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 11:49 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
"A scientist experience" doesn't offset the countless formal studies done by scientists proving it isn't any better than placebo.
It doesn't work from a medical standpoint and has been proven not to. However there could be a possible placebo element but that is true of many things. The BMJ even state that doctors should not perscribe it for pain relief as there is no evidence it works after decades of study.
Why don't you read some studies rather than taking an interview off the radio and then you can make an informed decision yourself.
SB |
He looked at it from a critical scientific angle and concluded it was of value.....even for impressionable animals.For me informed decisions involve taking people's experience into account.
I suspected you may write it off. Is placebo another way of saying 'we don't understand the mechanics yet?' | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:11 - Aug 22 with 2785 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:09 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
He looked at it from a critical scientific angle and concluded it was of value.....even for impressionable animals.For me informed decisions involve taking people's experience into account.
I suspected you may write it off. Is placebo another way of saying 'we don't understand the mechanics yet?' |
Have a look at some of the previous threads on this Bankster - if you change anyone's mind I'll donate a fiver to a charity of your choice! | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:14 - Aug 22 with 2781 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:11 - Aug 22 by Ryorry |
Have a look at some of the previous threads on this Bankster - if you change anyone's mind I'll donate a fiver to a charity of your choice! |
You should listen to the vet...he is very engaging....from about 1 hr 30 for the non acupuncture stuff too. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:17 - Aug 22 with 2770 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:14 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You should listen to the vet...he is very engaging....from about 1 hr 30 for the non acupuncture stuff too. |
Sorry, just too long to be stuck to my desk (I don't do vids on my phone). | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:41 - Aug 22 with 2743 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:17 - Aug 22 by Ryorry |
Sorry, just too long to be stuck to my desk (I don't do vids on my phone). |
It is audio from radio Suffolk. About 20 minutes. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:50 - Aug 22 with 2732 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:09 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
He looked at it from a critical scientific angle and concluded it was of value.....even for impressionable animals.For me informed decisions involve taking people's experience into account.
I suspected you may write it off. Is placebo another way of saying 'we don't understand the mechanics yet?' |
"I suspected you may write it off".
So taking the wealth of published scientific evidence over a single scientist on BBC Radio Suffolk who you feel was critical is now the correct approach whilst referring to the larger body of scientific evidence is "writing it off".
That's a very weird way of looking at things.
If you didn't want to be challenged on it why did you post it? Plenty of echo chambers out the where you can get the response you want.
SB [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 12:54]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:53 - Aug 22 with 2720 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:11 - Aug 22 by Ryorry |
Have a look at some of the previous threads on this Bankster - if you change anyone's mind I'll donate a fiver to a charity of your choice! |
You need to provide peer reviewed and recreatable studies as evidence rather than ancedotal stories.
You've repeatedly been unable to do that so why should anyone change their minds?
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:27 - Aug 22 with 2691 views | IpswichBoyBlue |
Mate of mine had it. He was in a bad place and needed help. Doc recommended acupuncture and to his credit, did the business. He no longer suffers. Take your docs advice on it though, if you are thinking of having a session or 2. |  | | |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:43 - Aug 22 with 2657 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:41 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It is audio from radio Suffolk. About 20 minutes. |
Same thing. I can't stream on my phone, don't have a package. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:45 - Aug 22 with 2650 views | Ryorry |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:53 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
You need to provide peer reviewed and recreatable studies as evidence rather than ancedotal stories.
You've repeatedly been unable to do that so why should anyone change their minds?
SB |
Suggest you stick with what I actually said instead of trying to create an argument. | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:14 - Aug 22 with 2630 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 12:50 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
"I suspected you may write it off".
So taking the wealth of published scientific evidence over a single scientist on BBC Radio Suffolk who you feel was critical is now the correct approach whilst referring to the larger body of scientific evidence is "writing it off".
That's a very weird way of looking at things.
If you didn't want to be challenged on it why did you post it? Plenty of echo chambers out the where you can get the response you want.
SB [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 12:54]
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You are probably correct that the man on radio suffolk is the only scientific voice on the planet who sees a case for acupuncture. Did you listen btw?
I am fairly sure I posted to read people's opinions.... | |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:22 - Aug 22 with 2623 views | BrixtonBlue |
My old boss had a dodgy knee for years before someone suggested he try it. He didn't believe in it at all but thought he'd give it a go. His knee issue cleared up after one session. He still says he can't really explain it. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:25 - Aug 22 with 2618 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:14 - Aug 22 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You are probably correct that the man on radio suffolk is the only scientific voice on the planet who sees a case for acupuncture. Did you listen btw?
I am fairly sure I posted to read people's opinions.... |
Clearly not what I said at all, however you were building your argument based on a single scientist and were expecting that single scientist to somehow change my mind against the whole body of scientific evidence to the contrary. The number of people saying there is a case for it is irrelevant unless they can provide peer-reviewed evidence which counters all the existing evidence. As I said, there is a reason the British Medical Journal tell doctors not to prescribe it for pain.
"I am fairly sure I posted to read people's opinions...."
Yet you don't seem willing to respond to them fairly when they are given.
SB [Post edited 22 Aug 2020 14:26]
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:29 - Aug 22 with 2606 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 13:45 - Aug 22 by Ryorry |
Suggest you stick with what I actually said instead of trying to create an argument. |
Creating an argument? Unbelievable. You were the one who cited people not changing their minds and I highlighted why not.
My point stands, why should anyone be expected to change their mind if the evidence can't be provided?
I could say the moon was made of cheese but it's unreasonable for me to expect you to change your opinion on it and agree with me if I cannot provide you with the evidence to support it.
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:34 - Aug 22 with 2589 views | BlueBadger |
Most likely to be rubbish. *Some* evidence for it exists, but it's pretty weak. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:37 - Aug 22 with 2589 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:29 - Aug 22 by StokieBlue |
Creating an argument? Unbelievable. You were the one who cited people not changing their minds and I highlighted why not.
My point stands, why should anyone be expected to change their mind if the evidence can't be provided?
I could say the moon was made of cheese but it's unreasonable for me to expect you to change your opinion on it and agree with me if I cannot provide you with the evidence to support it.
SB |
I think the issue with acupuncture from a formal medical point of view is that it's difficult to construct a truly consistent set of conditions and trials to generate the the credible evidence that it is (or is not) beneficial, at least compared to drug trials, where the variables can be controlled more precisely. |  |
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| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:39 - Aug 22 with 2587 views | StokieBlue |
| Acupuncture.....woo or noo? on 14:37 - Aug 22 by Ewan_Oozami |
I think the issue with acupuncture from a formal medical point of view is that it's difficult to construct a truly consistent set of conditions and trials to generate the the credible evidence that it is (or is not) beneficial, at least compared to drug trials, where the variables can be controlled more precisely. |
That is somewhat fair, however there have been numerous trials which have attempted it. If the benefits were far above placebo then that should have stood out by now as it does with conventional drug trials.
SB | |
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