| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:50 - Feb 12 with 5197 views | DJR |
I think one does have to be a bit wary about the accuracy of those figures. The BBC says they cannot be verified, and all the MOD says is that the trends the data show are likely to be accurate, namely, that Russian casualties at the moment are higher than at any time since the start of the war.
But I totally agree, whatever the true figures, that this is an utter waste of life. [Post edited 12 Feb 2023 13:55]
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 14:48 - Feb 12 with 5100 views | Guthrum |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:50 - Feb 12 by DJR |
I think one does have to be a bit wary about the accuracy of those figures. The BBC says they cannot be verified, and all the MOD says is that the trends the data show are likely to be accurate, namely, that Russian casualties at the moment are higher than at any time since the start of the war.
But I totally agree, whatever the true figures, that this is an utter waste of life. [Post edited 12 Feb 2023 13:55]
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If they're mounting a major offensive with hastily-trained conscripts lacking adequate armoured and air support against a dug-in enemy, numbers like that are actually not unrealistic (the first day of the Somme cost around 25,000 Anglo-French lives and parts of it were considerably more successful than the Russians have been recently).
Tho your point about the unreliability of casualty figures is absolutely true. Over-reporting of damage to the enemy and under-reporting of that received has always been endemic in war, right back to Ancient Egyptian royal monuments. |  |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:20 - Feb 12 with 5036 views | RegencyBlue |
Russia doesn’t value the lives of its people, simple as that.
They are repeating their tactics from the Second World War, human wave attacks against a dug in enemy with inadequate support from armour and air assets. Whilst casualty figures are inevitably estimated those sort of tactics are costly! |  | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:30 - Feb 12 with 4973 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:20 - Feb 12 by RegencyBlue |
Russia doesn’t value the lives of its people, simple as that.
They are repeating their tactics from the Second World War, human wave attacks against a dug in enemy with inadequate support from armour and air assets. Whilst casualty figures are inevitably estimated those sort of tactics are costly! |
There must come a point at which the populace rebel against it. If those in charge recognise that, maybe they might look for a way out of the mess Putin has got them into by laying the blame entirely on him. We can but hope. |  |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:46 - Feb 12 with 4911 views | RegencyBlue |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:30 - Feb 12 by Nthsuffolkblue |
There must come a point at which the populace rebel against it. If those in charge recognise that, maybe they might look for a way out of the mess Putin has got them into by laying the blame entirely on him. We can but hope. |
I wouldn’t bet on it!
The Russian population outside of the cities are predominantly peasants who are pretty unsophisticated and used to doing exactly what the powers that be tell them to do. | | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:52 - Feb 12 with 4727 views | HARRY10 |
If they are using former prisoners then it is one way of reducing the numbers - don't let Lie Anderson MP see whats happening
The figures for deaths cannot be calculated accurately. If it is by body count then it would men both sides having to collate figures. Missing and dead assumes missing are dead, and not captured by the Ukrainians.
What is happening is the daily wearing down of the Russian armed forces. There is no way a country of 135m can keep up with up with the 'west' with abything up to a population of 750m. More so when there are now sanctions on vital materials to manufacture ordnance (silicone chips).
The fear for Russia must be that if they back down now it could lead to some of its regions seeking autonomy, as with 1990. More so those with oil. This smacks of the Argonne offensive (1944), a last desperate throw of the dice. |  | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:57 - Feb 12 with 4560 views | Plums |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 17:52 - Feb 12 by HARRY10 |
If they are using former prisoners then it is one way of reducing the numbers - don't let Lie Anderson MP see whats happening
The figures for deaths cannot be calculated accurately. If it is by body count then it would men both sides having to collate figures. Missing and dead assumes missing are dead, and not captured by the Ukrainians.
What is happening is the daily wearing down of the Russian armed forces. There is no way a country of 135m can keep up with up with the 'west' with abything up to a population of 750m. More so when there are now sanctions on vital materials to manufacture ordnance (silicone chips).
The fear for Russia must be that if they back down now it could lead to some of its regions seeking autonomy, as with 1990. More so those with oil. This smacks of the Argonne offensive (1944), a last desperate throw of the dice. |
The Wagner group are using prisoners as disposable target finders by sending groups of six towards the Ukranians and looking to see where the fire comes from so they can return fire.
They have no interest in any of the six returning.
Hideous barbaric people. |  |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:28 - Feb 13 with 4199 views | DinDjarin |
Sure I read over 250k confirmed Ukraine deaths.
Not looking good as Russia has 600k troops massed on the borders ready for Spring offensive. |  | | |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 22:57 - Feb 13 with 4091 views | EdwardStone |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 19:28 - Feb 13 by DinDjarin |
Sure I read over 250k confirmed Ukraine deaths.
Not looking good as Russia has 600k troops massed on the borders ready for Spring offensive. |
A huge number of Russian troops, but without training, competent leadership and sufficient equipment, they might be in for a very unpleasant surprise |  | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:05 - Feb 13 with 4063 views | WicklowBlue |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 14:48 - Feb 12 by Guthrum |
If they're mounting a major offensive with hastily-trained conscripts lacking adequate armoured and air support against a dug-in enemy, numbers like that are actually not unrealistic (the first day of the Somme cost around 25,000 Anglo-French lives and parts of it were considerably more successful than the Russians have been recently).
Tho your point about the unreliability of casualty figures is absolutely true. Over-reporting of damage to the enemy and under-reporting of that received has always been endemic in war, right back to Ancient Egyptian royal monuments. |
Worrying if true...or warning Russia that NATO is gearing up for war time levels of production? Or taken out of context....
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:12 - Feb 13 with 4041 views | HARRY10 |
"the first day of the Somme cost around 25,000 Anglo-French lives and parts of it were considerably more successful than the Russians have been recently"
I'm not sure there were French on the Somme that day, as the whole point of that action was to relieve the French at Verdun. The success was in that German troops were shifted away from the Somme and they lost ireplacable experienced troops over the following months | | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:28 - Feb 13 with 4016 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:12 - Feb 13 by HARRY10 |
"the first day of the Somme cost around 25,000 Anglo-French lives and parts of it were considerably more successful than the Russians have been recently"
I'm not sure there were French on the Somme that day, as the whole point of that action was to relieve the French at Verdun. The success was in that German troops were shifted away from the Somme and they lost ireplacable experienced troops over the following months |
"The Battle of the Somme (1 July - 18 November 1916) was a joint operation between British and French forces intended to achieve a decisive victory over the Germans on the Western Front." https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-was-the-battle-of-the-somme
I think Guthers knows his history. | |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:29 - Feb 13 with 4014 views | HARRY10 |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 23:05 - Feb 13 by WicklowBlue |
Worrying if true...or warning Russia that NATO is gearing up for war time levels of production? Or taken out of context....
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That assumes Russi IS maintaining it's level of production. It is not
NATO has huge resources to draw upon. And can source armaments and ammunition from almost all over the world. Russia cannot.
Drawing on WW1 comparisons Germany was defeated because it could no longer supply its troops nor feed the populace at home. There were still 'enough' soldiers in the field, but without suplies they were finished.
I susoect what we will see is similar to the Michael offensive (Spring 1918) and the Ardennes attack (Winter 1944) where the intent was to grab as much as possible before the allies were obliged to sue for peace.
An all out blast of everything will leave Russia vulnerable to internal revolt, if not India and China adding to the threat. It could end as in 1990, where the former Soviet bloc shattered and countries broke away | | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:25 - Feb 14 with 3825 views | StokieBlue |
Plenty more bodies in the the Urals and Siberia that Putin can call up with conscription and unfortunately that's something he's likely to do.
He could start seeing some real trouble at home if he starts calling up people from big cities like Moscow or St. Petersburg - he's deliberately avoided doing that thus far.
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:26 - Feb 14 with 3820 views | itfcjoe |
Was listening to a podcast about the Wagner group and they were just saying how they can just treat life so cheaply - i.e. send 6 men forwards into a danger zone, knowing they will all be killed but it allows them to find out where the shooters are etc so then fight back with more men.
It's like they are playing a computer game, just horrid and unthinkable |  |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:31 - Feb 14 with 3809 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 15:20 - Feb 12 by RegencyBlue |
Russia doesn’t value the lives of its people, simple as that.
They are repeating their tactics from the Second World War, human wave attacks against a dug in enemy with inadequate support from armour and air assets. Whilst casualty figures are inevitably estimated those sort of tactics are costly! |
But even more important to Russia and to the Russian people is that they value the lives of Nazis even less than they value the lives of their own people.
And this, as far as ordinary Russians are concerned is a fight against Nazis who are planning, (with the west), on invading parts of Russia. Yet another Government using fake news to control the masses, but this time with the threat of 25 years in prison for deviating from the official message.
824 or not, they'll keep coming. |  |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:34 - Feb 14 with 3799 views | StokieBlue |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:31 - Feb 14 by Cheltenham_Blue |
But even more important to Russia and to the Russian people is that they value the lives of Nazis even less than they value the lives of their own people.
And this, as far as ordinary Russians are concerned is a fight against Nazis who are planning, (with the west), on invading parts of Russia. Yet another Government using fake news to control the masses, but this time with the threat of 25 years in prison for deviating from the official message.
824 or not, they'll keep coming. |
Are you sure that is how "ordinary" Russians feel?
Not everyone accepts the official line, especially in the cities where education is better. It's just as it stands it's pretty hard to do anything about it given the reprisals that you've highlighted.
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 08:59 - Feb 14 with 3731 views | Churchman |
Yes, the French did take part in the Somme, but it was a predominantly British/commonwealth battle that raged for some months from 1 July 1916. The primary objective was to relieve pressure on the French and Haig was very concerned about timing and the location of the battle.
It was the first major action of Kitchener’s New Army (Pals Battalions etc) and was remarkable in that it’s just about the only occasion in history where a large army consisted almost entirely of volunteers. The professional army had been all but wiped out at Mons, Marne, 1st Ypres and Loos.
These volunteers come forward in their 1000s in 1914 and 1915 and spent on average about a year in training, initially in the U.K. and then in the quiet sectors of the western front like Armentieres where 34 Division were massed in Jan 16. The big fear was how such an untrained army would respond and that was a factor in the rigid tactics particularly of the first day.
There was a heavy reliance on artillery and some mining to wipe out the Germans and men carried around 60lbs of kit because their primary job would be to occupy and ‘turn’ what remained of the German trenches. The impact and accuracy of bombardment were way over estimated and German defence remained intact.
The British army was certainly blooded in that battle losing over 57,000 casualties on 1 July alone, but they also learned a lot. The performance of the soldiers at the Somme was quite remarkable. By 1918 the British Army was by far the best army in the world, having all but finished the German army.
Putin’s army will have learned a lot from last year and the advantage lies with them in my view because of numbers, supplies and most important political will. That many of his soldiers are under trained and forced into it is not really relevant unless you are one of them or their relations.
The Russians don’t care how many die. Firstly the don’t have to release the casualty figures and secondly who cares as long as you win? That’s the sick level to which that animal Putin and his useful idiots think. The people largely swallow the Nazi propaganda line and Putin enjoys massive support. This is why he is so dangerous. He won’t stop. [Post edited 14 Feb 2023 9:25]
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:11 - Feb 14 with 3705 views | ElephantintheRoom |
They got through 27 million in WW2 so plenty of spare parts for the Russian war machine in prisons and the troublesome regions. | |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:29 - Feb 14 with 3649 views | DJR |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:11 - Feb 14 by ElephantintheRoom |
They got through 27 million in WW2 so plenty of spare parts for the Russian war machine in prisons and the troublesome regions. |
I think that is a very harsh view, as the Russians were defending themselves then.
Their 27 million is in sharp contrast to the UK's 400,000 or so, and from what I am aware their struggle and suffering in WW2 plays a very large part in the Russian psyche.
I remember seeing a Simon Reeve programme which featured commemorations of the war in a remote Siberian town, and in which hundreds of people walked through the streets with photos of relations they had lost. It struck me as much more of a grass-roots up commemoration than the UK's very formal commemorations of past wars.
The sad fact though is that Putin is tapping into this. [Post edited 14 Feb 2023 9:31]
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:36 - Feb 14 with 3619 views | StokieBlue |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:29 - Feb 14 by DJR |
I think that is a very harsh view, as the Russians were defending themselves then.
Their 27 million is in sharp contrast to the UK's 400,000 or so, and from what I am aware their struggle and suffering in WW2 plays a very large part in the Russian psyche.
I remember seeing a Simon Reeve programme which featured commemorations of the war in a remote Siberian town, and in which hundreds of people walked through the streets with photos of relations they had lost. It struck me as much more of a grass-roots up commemoration than the UK's very formal commemorations of past wars.
The sad fact though is that Putin is tapping into this. [Post edited 14 Feb 2023 9:31]
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It's rightly a huge thing in Russia.
As you drive into St. Petersburg from the airport direction the first thing you see is a massive monument remembering the lives lost in the siege of Leningrad.
As you say, Putin is attempting to tap into this and it works with a lot of the population but I think there is a number of people who see past his manipulation but there is little they can do about it.
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:38 - Feb 14 with 3614 views | Churchman |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:29 - Feb 14 by DJR |
I think that is a very harsh view, as the Russians were defending themselves then.
Their 27 million is in sharp contrast to the UK's 400,000 or so, and from what I am aware their struggle and suffering in WW2 plays a very large part in the Russian psyche.
I remember seeing a Simon Reeve programme which featured commemorations of the war in a remote Siberian town, and in which hundreds of people walked through the streets with photos of relations they had lost. It struck me as much more of a grass-roots up commemoration than the UK's very formal commemorations of past wars.
The sad fact though is that Putin is tapping into this. [Post edited 14 Feb 2023 9:31]
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Ironically Stalin’s purges played a big part in the losses along with a complete disregard for the lives of their own men. So nothing has changed then! They essentially re-fought WW1, as did the Germans. Britain and the US fought a much more mechanised, industrial war, hence the much lower casualty figures.
The Russians rightly focus on their sacrifice but wrongly diminish to next to nothing the contribution of Britain, the US and their allies in defeating the Germans based on casualties. It’s their prerogative, but it doesn’t make it right. | | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:00 - Feb 14 with 3549 views | DJR |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:38 - Feb 14 by Churchman |
Ironically Stalin’s purges played a big part in the losses along with a complete disregard for the lives of their own men. So nothing has changed then! They essentially re-fought WW1, as did the Germans. Britain and the US fought a much more mechanised, industrial war, hence the much lower casualty figures.
The Russians rightly focus on their sacrifice but wrongly diminish to next to nothing the contribution of Britain, the US and their allies in defeating the Germans based on casualties. It’s their prerogative, but it doesn’t make it right. |
I think the lower US and UK casualties are better explained by the fact that neither was part of continental Europe, and that the Normandy landings only took place when the war had reached a turning point.
And I think there is equally a tendency in West to play down the role the Russians played in defeating the Nazis, although some like Max Hastings do recognise it.
The Red Army was "the main engine of Nazism's destruction," writes British historian and journalist Max Hastings in "Inferno: The World at War, 1939-1945." The Soviet Union paid the harshest price: though the numbers are not exact, an estimated 26 million Soviet citizens died during World War II, including as many as 11 million soldiers. At the same time, the Germans suffered three-quarters of their wartime losses fighting the Red Army.
"It was the Western Allies' extreme good fortune that the Russians, and not themselves, paid almost the entire 'butcher's bill' for [defeating Nazi Germany], accepting 95 per cent of the military casualties of the three major powers of the Grand Alliance," writes Hastings. | | | |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 11:49 - Feb 14 with 3436 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 09:29 - Feb 14 by DJR |
I think that is a very harsh view, as the Russians were defending themselves then.
Their 27 million is in sharp contrast to the UK's 400,000 or so, and from what I am aware their struggle and suffering in WW2 plays a very large part in the Russian psyche.
I remember seeing a Simon Reeve programme which featured commemorations of the war in a remote Siberian town, and in which hundreds of people walked through the streets with photos of relations they had lost. It struck me as much more of a grass-roots up commemoration than the UK's very formal commemorations of past wars.
The sad fact though is that Putin is tapping into this. [Post edited 14 Feb 2023 9:31]
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It’s a realistic view though. Russia has long used its population as cannon fodder. Mind you it would be a mistake to think those naughty Nazis got through 27 million on their own. Mass deliberate starvation through a scorched earth policy and predation by ´partisans’ played its part.
But I will grant you that most of WW2 happened on the Eastern front - again a deliberate policy by everybody else to let Russia and the Nazi war machine exhaust each other. Which show Hitler wasn’t the only one to underestimate Russia.
You have to remember that the UK was virtually untouched by WW2 - and the horror of WW1 was a long way away in a foreign land. It’s not just Russia that remembers WW2 - France has made Remembrance Day a national holiday. And to be fair when I were lad in the 50s and early 60s all the WW1 veterans on parade with the whippersnappers from WW2 was very much a major event at villages and towns all over the country. | |
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| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 13:21 - Feb 14 with 3359 views | Churchman |
| Russian military deaths at 824 a day on 10:00 - Feb 14 by DJR |
I think the lower US and UK casualties are better explained by the fact that neither was part of continental Europe, and that the Normandy landings only took place when the war had reached a turning point.
And I think there is equally a tendency in West to play down the role the Russians played in defeating the Nazis, although some like Max Hastings do recognise it.
The Red Army was "the main engine of Nazism's destruction," writes British historian and journalist Max Hastings in "Inferno: The World at War, 1939-1945." The Soviet Union paid the harshest price: though the numbers are not exact, an estimated 26 million Soviet citizens died during World War II, including as many as 11 million soldiers. At the same time, the Germans suffered three-quarters of their wartime losses fighting the Red Army.
"It was the Western Allies' extreme good fortune that the Russians, and not themselves, paid almost the entire 'butcher's bill' for [defeating Nazi Germany], accepting 95 per cent of the military casualties of the three major powers of the Grand Alliance," writes Hastings. |
Britain fought in the battle for France, North Africa, Italy, Normandy. It fought the battle of the Atlantic and conducted an air assault on Germany like no other. It also fought a World War, as did the US. Russia, Germany did not. Both US and U.K. also supported Russia to an extent that it may have been defeated by the Germans with out it.
Perhaps it was Russia’s good fortune that the US and U.K. also fought the Germans.
Britain and its allies could have fielded an army nearly as large of the Germans had it chosen to go that way, as it did in 1918. I.e. sending all its men to war, horses, marching etc. It deliberately chose not to go that way to avoid the carnage of WW1. Russia and Germany did not. The U.K. fought total war. The Germans did not.
That Russia paid the bill through people was as much due to incompetence and lack of care towards its own people stretching back decades, as Germany having the best army in the world in 1941. Aside from killing 1000s of its own people, it ignored warnings given to it.
As for Max Hastings, in my view he is one of the worst historical revisionists. A read of his book Chastise on the Dams raid is good evidence of that. There are plenty of authors for balance, such as Beevor and Holland.
Edit: An alternative to the Hastings view - rightly or wrongly.
https://www.heritage.org/europe/commentary/never-forget-us-and-uk-saved-world-ty [Post edited 14 Feb 2023 13:52]
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