| This extremely hard SATs paper... 14:50 - May 18 with 3041 views | Zx1988 |
I see that the details of the unfairly difficult SATs paper that was reported on last week have been published today:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-65624697
I know it's difficult to pass an accurate judgement when you're no longer at that stage of your educational development, but I can't see what the issue with the questions is - especially the one concerning Austin, Texas. |  |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:05 - May 18 with 2961 views | Fixed_It |
Is the purpose of SATS to demoralise and stress out eleven year olds? If the answer is 'yes', then job done. If the answer is 'no', then this particular paper was not fit for purpose. Whether any of them are relevant or necessary is another point... [Post edited 18 May 2023 15:06]
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:09 - May 18 with 2923 views | Keno |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:05 - May 18 by Fixed_It |
Is the purpose of SATS to demoralise and stress out eleven year olds? If the answer is 'yes', then job done. If the answer is 'no', then this particular paper was not fit for purpose. Whether any of them are relevant or necessary is another point... [Post edited 18 May 2023 15:06]
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We never SATs eh fixey and look how we turned out!! |  |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:22 - May 18 with 2894 views | lowhouseblue |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:05 - May 18 by Fixed_It |
Is the purpose of SATS to demoralise and stress out eleven year olds? If the answer is 'yes', then job done. If the answer is 'no', then this particular paper was not fit for purpose. Whether any of them are relevant or necessary is another point... [Post edited 18 May 2023 15:06]
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i assume the purpose is to assess the stage people have reached in an age appropriate way. to do that across the full range of ability there have to be questions that lots of people can't get right or find difficult. if kids get demoralised or stressed out by not getting all the questions right that may be a problem with education / culture / upbringing / expectations more generally rather than with the exam paper. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:51 - May 18 with 2803 views | Plums |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:22 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
i assume the purpose is to assess the stage people have reached in an age appropriate way. to do that across the full range of ability there have to be questions that lots of people can't get right or find difficult. if kids get demoralised or stressed out by not getting all the questions right that may be a problem with education / culture / upbringing / expectations more generally rather than with the exam paper. |
The supposed objective is to have children reading at an age appropriate way by the time they leave primary school. In a civilised society, the outcome of the test would surely be to support those children which can't so they get to a level which will sustain them through life?
I'm not a professional educator but I can't see how getting a 10 year old to work through a written comprehension test achieves either. What it does is provide a data set so the school, trust and government can make decisions.
To assess a 10 year old's reading ability, I'd respectfully suggest they read to an adult who can make a professional judgment on their ability and then provide support where needed.
The powers that be have lost sight (if they ever had it) of who and what is important in all this. |  |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:59 - May 18 with 2775 views | bluelagos |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:05 - May 18 by Fixed_It |
Is the purpose of SATS to demoralise and stress out eleven year olds? If the answer is 'yes', then job done. If the answer is 'no', then this particular paper was not fit for purpose. Whether any of them are relevant or necessary is another point... [Post edited 18 May 2023 15:06]
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Nail on head. |  |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 16:32 - May 18 with 2684 views | lowhouseblue |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 15:51 - May 18 by Plums |
The supposed objective is to have children reading at an age appropriate way by the time they leave primary school. In a civilised society, the outcome of the test would surely be to support those children which can't so they get to a level which will sustain them through life?
I'm not a professional educator but I can't see how getting a 10 year old to work through a written comprehension test achieves either. What it does is provide a data set so the school, trust and government can make decisions.
To assess a 10 year old's reading ability, I'd respectfully suggest they read to an adult who can make a professional judgment on their ability and then provide support where needed.
The powers that be have lost sight (if they ever had it) of who and what is important in all this. |
you don't think it's quite useful data to know how many kids can work out that austin is in texas when they read something saying that austin is the state capital of texas? isn't comprehension an important skill even by 11? it certainly shouldn't be made into a big deal for the kids, but isn't such data on attainment / progress / developmental stage quite important at an individual, school and cohort level? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 16:54 - May 18 with 2620 views | Plums |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 16:32 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
you don't think it's quite useful data to know how many kids can work out that austin is in texas when they read something saying that austin is the state capital of texas? isn't comprehension an important skill even by 11? it certainly shouldn't be made into a big deal for the kids, but isn't such data on attainment / progress / developmental stage quite important at an individual, school and cohort level? |
I don't disagree but I also don't think that should be the primary objective (if you'll pardon the pun).
Comprehension is very important but it's not a test of reading, it's a test of comprehension.
I'm afraid the world is now run by accountants or quasi-accounting measures of 'success' and in this case, we've lost sight of what's really important which is making sure ten year olds can read and if they can't, helping them to do so. [Post edited 18 May 2023 16:55]
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:05 - May 18 with 2595 views | NthQldITFC |
I don't understand the problem. Is the idea that every child should get 100% or it's 'not fair'? They seem like questions that have a 'right' answer and a 'nearly right' answer to me, which seems like a good way to assess performance without leaving any child clueless.
I have no idea about education these days, so I might be talking out of my arse, but are kids really so delicate that this is a problem? |  |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:13 - May 18 with 2579 views | Plums |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:05 - May 18 by NthQldITFC |
I don't understand the problem. Is the idea that every child should get 100% or it's 'not fair'? They seem like questions that have a 'right' answer and a 'nearly right' answer to me, which seems like a good way to assess performance without leaving any child clueless.
I have no idea about education these days, so I might be talking out of my arse, but are kids really so delicate that this is a problem? |
The issue (as I understand it) is that schools who don't get sufficiently high marks get the heavy treatment so to prevent this happening, they hot house the kids over Year 6 to ensure they meet the benchmark. The pressure is piled on the kids to succeed on behalf of the school. When the test is too hard, 10 year old Johnny has just 'failed' after a year of pressure.
The whole system is broken - because they're chasing a test rather than an education. | |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:16 - May 18 with 2570 views | Zx1988 |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:05 - May 18 by NthQldITFC |
I don't understand the problem. Is the idea that every child should get 100% or it's 'not fair'? They seem like questions that have a 'right' answer and a 'nearly right' answer to me, which seems like a good way to assess performance without leaving any child clueless.
I have no idea about education these days, so I might be talking out of my arse, but are kids really so delicate that this is a problem? |
Is it a bit of a sad indictment of attention spans as well?
With the Austin question, it seems highly likely that some of the kids read the first sentence, thought "that's a place", and might not have bothered to read any further. | |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:20 - May 18 with 2556 views | bluelagos |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:13 - May 18 by Plums |
The issue (as I understand it) is that schools who don't get sufficiently high marks get the heavy treatment so to prevent this happening, they hot house the kids over Year 6 to ensure they meet the benchmark. The pressure is piled on the kids to succeed on behalf of the school. When the test is too hard, 10 year old Johnny has just 'failed' after a year of pressure.
The whole system is broken - because they're chasing a test rather than an education. |
So there are a couple of issues. The league tables are what puts the pressure on the school, which puts in on the teacher who ends up spending way too much time an test preparation rather than teaching and learning.
Second is the idea that a test is an appropriate way to assess a child's progress rather than through continual assessment by the teacher.
And as one wise teacher once told me, if you measure a plant every day, it doesn't grow any quicker, rather you need to water it... | |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:37 - May 18 with 2517 views | DJR |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:13 - May 18 by Plums |
The issue (as I understand it) is that schools who don't get sufficiently high marks get the heavy treatment so to prevent this happening, they hot house the kids over Year 6 to ensure they meet the benchmark. The pressure is piled on the kids to succeed on behalf of the school. When the test is too hard, 10 year old Johnny has just 'failed' after a year of pressure.
The whole system is broken - because they're chasing a test rather than an education. |
I've never really understood the problem with a particular test of any kind which is harder than expected because in such a case the pass mark, grades or whatever will presumably be lowered to reflect this.
I say this as some who sat a national Solicitors' qualifying exam forty odd years ago, which made it on to the front page of the Telegraph because of fellow students complaining. I didn't think it was an issue.
EDIT: But I agree entirely with your last sentence. [Post edited 18 May 2023 17:49]
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 18:21 - May 18 with 2406 views | NthQldITFC |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 17:16 - May 18 by Zx1988 |
Is it a bit of a sad indictment of attention spans as well?
With the Austin question, it seems highly likely that some of the kids read the first sentence, thought "that's a place", and might not have bothered to read any further. |
TLDR. | |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 18:24 - May 18 with 2381 views | Keno |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 18:21 - May 18 by NthQldITFC |
TLDR. |
sorry Queenie but thats TLDR | |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 18:27 - May 18 with 2373 views | Swansea_Blue |
The wiggle one is definitely confusing. It’s not a synonym for any of the options, so take your pick! I can see why that frustrated kids and teachers alike if there were more like that.
It’s very surprising to hear a teacher complaining about the Austin, Texas one though. It’s not a question of geography at all and I suspect many of that teacher’s 10 year olds are brighter! [Post edited 18 May 2023 18:29]
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 19:51 - May 18 with 2270 views | itfc_bucks |
A huge part of the challenge was the length of texts the kids were expected to read. Going at the average reading pace of a child sitting those paper, I gather that just over 2/3 of the time would have been spent on reading the texts just once.
Kids obviously below the par reading rate would have spent even more of the test time in just going through the text.
And remember, most of these kids will have had significantly impacted schooling, with up to a third of their formal education delivered remotely.
As good as even the most dedicated teacher is, there is only so much that can be done down a Teams call with a 7 year old... | | | |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 20:06 - May 18 with 2224 views | CBBlue |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 16:32 - May 18 by lowhouseblue |
you don't think it's quite useful data to know how many kids can work out that austin is in texas when they read something saying that austin is the state capital of texas? isn't comprehension an important skill even by 11? it certainly shouldn't be made into a big deal for the kids, but isn't such data on attainment / progress / developmental stage quite important at an individual, school and cohort level? |
I think one of the main issues was expecting these 11 year olds to demonstrate their comprehension in a pressurised situation - the BBC article states the kids had on average 49 seconds to answer each question after the time to read everything was taken into account. If I was under such a stressful time constraint I'd possible jump on 'Austin' as the answer if I didn't know otherwise. My 11 year old likes geography so knew Austin was the capital of Texas without needing to read it - not really a test of his comprehension.
Interestingly, some of the English secondary school teachers I know tell me that the kids don't need to know most of what they are taught in primary school regarding identifying subordinating clauses etc. The only assumption is primary school kids are taught it primarily to pass the SATS and keep the government happy. | |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 21:40 - May 18 with 2092 views | stonojnr |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 20:06 - May 18 by CBBlue |
I think one of the main issues was expecting these 11 year olds to demonstrate their comprehension in a pressurised situation - the BBC article states the kids had on average 49 seconds to answer each question after the time to read everything was taken into account. If I was under such a stressful time constraint I'd possible jump on 'Austin' as the answer if I didn't know otherwise. My 11 year old likes geography so knew Austin was the capital of Texas without needing to read it - not really a test of his comprehension.
Interestingly, some of the English secondary school teachers I know tell me that the kids don't need to know most of what they are taught in primary school regarding identifying subordinating clauses etc. The only assumption is primary school kids are taught it primarily to pass the SATS and keep the government happy. |
49 secs, luxury, I remember doing my maths GCSE many decades ago that had a mental arithmetic quiz portion that contributed to your overall grade as marks, where the teacher read out often quite complicated multiplication & division sums, and you had 10-15secs to work out and write the answer down after theyd finished the question, before they moved on to the next one.
that was pressure, because there were no resits of those parts, no try agains, no calculators allowed, no I misheard what you said can you repeat it, you either knew your times tables properly or you didnt.
just reading some text with the answer embedded in the text, thats not pressure at all, if kids feel under pressure to comprehend stuff like that theres something seriously gone wrong in education, which frankly it has if teachers believe anyone would think "wriggled in" would mean "crept in quitely". | | | |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 21:49 - May 18 with 2070 views | Lord_Lucan |
I can’t make my mind up over this.
On the one hand I’m a sort of “These those kids alone” thing but then I’m thinking we need to push the kids to realise the best of their ability.
Thing is, all kids are different and some brainy mothers might be a bit sensitive and buckle under the pressure. 11 years old is a bit young for such pressure. I don’t know.
I am ancient enough to have sat the 11 plus exams and I can’t recall being phased - but I do remember some kids freaking out.
Tough one. |  |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 22:00 - May 18 with 2046 views | CBBlue |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 21:40 - May 18 by stonojnr |
49 secs, luxury, I remember doing my maths GCSE many decades ago that had a mental arithmetic quiz portion that contributed to your overall grade as marks, where the teacher read out often quite complicated multiplication & division sums, and you had 10-15secs to work out and write the answer down after theyd finished the question, before they moved on to the next one.
that was pressure, because there were no resits of those parts, no try agains, no calculators allowed, no I misheard what you said can you repeat it, you either knew your times tables properly or you didnt.
just reading some text with the answer embedded in the text, thats not pressure at all, if kids feel under pressure to comprehend stuff like that theres something seriously gone wrong in education, which frankly it has if teachers believe anyone would think "wriggled in" would mean "crept in quitely". |
They are 10 and 11 years old for goodness sakes, not teenagers taking GCSEs.
And I suspect the 8 and 9 year old kids who have to do the statutory multiplication test at the end of Year 4 might feel 10-15 seconds sounds a luxury as they only get 6 seconds per question with 3 seconds inbetween each one. | |
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| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 22:02 - May 18 with 2032 views | itfc_bucks |
| This extremely hard SATs paper... on 21:40 - May 18 by stonojnr |
49 secs, luxury, I remember doing my maths GCSE many decades ago that had a mental arithmetic quiz portion that contributed to your overall grade as marks, where the teacher read out often quite complicated multiplication & division sums, and you had 10-15secs to work out and write the answer down after theyd finished the question, before they moved on to the next one.
that was pressure, because there were no resits of those parts, no try agains, no calculators allowed, no I misheard what you said can you repeat it, you either knew your times tables properly or you didnt.
just reading some text with the answer embedded in the text, thats not pressure at all, if kids feel under pressure to comprehend stuff like that theres something seriously gone wrong in education, which frankly it has if teachers believe anyone would think "wriggled in" would mean "crept in quitely". |
You don't have kids, do you? | | | |
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