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Be under no illusion 08:08 - Feb 13 with 3018 viewsGlasgowBlue

If we fail to go up this season we will not be signing Garbutt and will most likely cash in on KVY, Dozzell, Wolfenden, Drogba & Downes.

A top six league one team may also believe that they could do a better job with either Norwood or Jackson than we have. And Marcus will take their money.

Which begs the question: Is Evans happy with us being a mid table League One team?

Under Mick’s management, he showed that he didn’t have the appetite or ambition to fund a promotion push to the Premier League and if we were promoted back to the championship, it’s fairly obvious that this team needs serious investment just to stay up next season.

So is making up the numbers in League one where Evans feels most comfortable?
[Post edited 13 Feb 8:14]

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Be under no illusion on 08:14 - Feb 13 with 1888 viewshomer_123

What is there left to say - I think no one is under any illusions that failure to go up this season will mean decimation of the squad.

Yet, by the same token, promotion will not guarantee any further investment from Evans to ensure that we are competitive in the Championship.

Evans came in and saved the Club way back when - it's not worked out for him or us, no matter how you try and measure it.

It's a marriage of inconvenience.

I have no doubt that Evans would now prefer to not be our owner and fans are similarly at the same point. Evans was never going to get a return on his investment unless we gained promotion to the Premiership, which has never looked further away from happening since he took over. We can all see the Club is stagnating and Lambert's inability to work with a decent group of players this year could well mean us languishing in this division of lower for the foreseeable future.

We need to part ways with Evans but that also looks like 'moon on a stick' hope right now.

Ade Akinbiyi couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo...
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Be under no illusion on 08:16 - Feb 13 with 1867 viewsWD19

ME has actually been quite consistent. He appears to be 'happy' losing a certain amount each year, whilst hoping that amount is enough to make us competitive and/or encourage someone to come along and buy us.

It clearly was nowhere near enough to make us competitive in the Championship, but to be honest (salary rules permitting) it should be plenty to ensure we are competitive in L1 and have every chance of doing well in it in any given year. We should be swinging towards the top in any given year, irrespective of squad turnover from one season to another.
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Be under no illusion on 08:17 - Feb 13 with 1859 viewsartsbossbeard

Be under no illusion on 08:14 - Feb 13 by homer_123

What is there left to say - I think no one is under any illusions that failure to go up this season will mean decimation of the squad.

Yet, by the same token, promotion will not guarantee any further investment from Evans to ensure that we are competitive in the Championship.

Evans came in and saved the Club way back when - it's not worked out for him or us, no matter how you try and measure it.

It's a marriage of inconvenience.

I have no doubt that Evans would now prefer to not be our owner and fans are similarly at the same point. Evans was never going to get a return on his investment unless we gained promotion to the Premiership, which has never looked further away from happening since he took over. We can all see the Club is stagnating and Lambert's inability to work with a decent group of players this year could well mean us languishing in this division of lower for the foreseeable future.

We need to part ways with Evans but that also looks like 'moon on a stick' hope right now.


Presumably a Championship based Ipswich Town FC would hold more sway with potential new owners over 3rd Division Ipswich Town FC?

Whether Evans and/or Lambert stays or goes, promotion this season is imperative.

Crivens.

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Be under no illusion on 08:18 - Feb 13 with 1828 viewsElephantintheRoom

Hmmm - you could argue that this is simply working to the five point plan.... buying in good players and developing them.... getting a season out of home grown players.

The economics of football are more or less dictating that a moribund club like Town cannot keep any decent player more than one season.

Interestingly, not that I care overmuch, the same thing is happening in rugby - with the cash-filled Prem casting adrift the championship which is the breeding ground for development at every level of the game from primary school upwards

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Be under no illusion on 08:19 - Feb 13 with 1837 viewsGuthrum

He'd need to make significant further cuts, tho. Matchday income will further reduce if this season ends with a whimper. There will be even less chance of matches being lucratively televised. Sponsorship will be harder to come by and fees lower.

Even if he's looking at milking the conveyor belt of young players coming through, they will start going elsewhere sooner, for less money (or be unsellable if he asks too much).

Can't see how it would really advantage Evans that much to be stuck mid-table in League One.

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Be under no illusion on 08:19 - Feb 13 with 1817 viewshomer_123

Be under no illusion on 08:17 - Feb 13 by artsbossbeard

Presumably a Championship based Ipswich Town FC would hold more sway with potential new owners over 3rd Division Ipswich Town FC?

Whether Evans and/or Lambert stays or goes, promotion this season is imperative.

Crivens.


No doubt at all.

Being realistic....Evans had an opportunity to back Mick to get Promotion to the Premiership (which would have potentially enabled him to sell and get a return - he chose not to do that).

Evans hasn't backed Lambert this transfer window either, with a view to gaining promotion back to the Championship.

It makes no odds to investors whether we are in the Championship or League 1 or 2 - Evans loses money - any incentive to invest has been totally lost.

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Be under no illusion on 08:20 - Feb 13 with 1808 viewshomer_123

Be under no illusion on 08:19 - Feb 13 by Guthrum

He'd need to make significant further cuts, tho. Matchday income will further reduce if this season ends with a whimper. There will be even less chance of matches being lucratively televised. Sponsorship will be harder to come by and fees lower.

Even if he's looking at milking the conveyor belt of young players coming through, they will start going elsewhere sooner, for less money (or be unsellable if he asks too much).

Can't see how it would really advantage Evans that much to be stuck mid-table in League One.


If he didn't invest to gain promotion to the Premiership - then he's even less likely to do so get go from League 1 to the Championship.

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Be under no illusion on 08:24 - Feb 13 with 1774 viewsGuthrum

Be under no illusion on 08:17 - Feb 13 by artsbossbeard

Presumably a Championship based Ipswich Town FC would hold more sway with potential new owners over 3rd Division Ipswich Town FC?

Whether Evans and/or Lambert stays or goes, promotion this season is imperative.

Crivens.


Not necessarily. Potential owners with a longer-term plan might see a third tier team as more of a bargain they can snap up work on (c.f. Swansea, Bournemouth). However, our massive debt and the effect even a written down portion of that would have on our likely sale price makes ITFC in particular much less attractive.

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Be under no illusion on 08:24 - Feb 13 with 1778 viewsFtnfwest

All true other than i don't think we'd get a lot for Drogba these days... The other misconception is that it simply isn't just about money, it's Marcus' lack of footballing nous leading to a number of poor managerial choices over the years. He will not put in place a modern managerial set up as exists elsewhere (including up the road) to develop a proper plan for him. Oh no, he's wanted to get more involved himself!
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Be under no illusion on 08:26 - Feb 13 with 1757 viewsGuthrum

Be under no illusion on 08:20 - Feb 13 by homer_123

If he didn't invest to gain promotion to the Premiership - then he's even less likely to do so get go from League 1 to the Championship.


To gain promotion, yes. But to attain Championship stability he's probably not putting in that much more (net) than he would be in L1.

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Be under no illusion on 08:28 - Feb 13 with 1740 viewshomer_123

Be under no illusion on 08:24 - Feb 13 by Ftnfwest

All true other than i don't think we'd get a lot for Drogba these days... The other misconception is that it simply isn't just about money, it's Marcus' lack of footballing nous leading to a number of poor managerial choices over the years. He will not put in place a modern managerial set up as exists elsewhere (including up the road) to develop a proper plan for him. Oh no, he's wanted to get more involved himself!


As I asked the other day - Mick aside, every other single decision he's made has turned out to be wrong/ awful.

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Be under no illusion on 08:29 - Feb 13 with 1733 viewsChrisd

Be under no illusion on 08:16 - Feb 13 by WD19

ME has actually been quite consistent. He appears to be 'happy' losing a certain amount each year, whilst hoping that amount is enough to make us competitive and/or encourage someone to come along and buy us.

It clearly was nowhere near enough to make us competitive in the Championship, but to be honest (salary rules permitting) it should be plenty to ensure we are competitive in L1 and have every chance of doing well in it in any given year. We should be swinging towards the top in any given year, irrespective of squad turnover from one season to another.


ME might argue that we are being competitive this season, we're in the top 8 - he might be content with that. It might not be what we were all hoping for, but ME seems to walk to a different beat to the rest of us. Has there been a significant player turn over from last season? We've lost a couple and made a few additions to an already bulging squad.
[Post edited 13 Feb 9:31]

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Be under no illusion on 08:29 - Feb 13 with 1740 viewsHerbivore

I don't buy the idea that Evans is happy for us to be a middling League 1 side and just cash in on any saleable assets. First off, we turned down offers for Judge in the summer and we turned down 7 figure offers in the window just gone. That doesn't suggest desperation to cash in and no ambition to go up. It's not the first time Evans has turned down sizeable bids for players either.

On top of that, the only chance ME has of ever getting any money back is by us playing at a higher level, either somehow getting up to the Prem or at least being able to claw in genuinely big fees for Downes and Woolfy as a Championship side. A club of our size is also a much more attractive prospect to a buyer in the Championship than in League 1. Being one step away from the Prem is more enticing to investors than being midtable in League 1.

I fully get the doom and gloom at the minute, our situation is hugely depressing. That said some of the speculative catastrophising is also a bit much. I don't see any evidence, past or present, to suggest that if we don't go up Evans will hold a fire sale and settle for being a midtable League 1 side.

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Be under no illusion on 08:31 - Feb 13 with 1709 viewsElephantintheRoom

Be under no illusion on 08:24 - Feb 13 by Ftnfwest

All true other than i don't think we'd get a lot for Drogba these days... The other misconception is that it simply isn't just about money, it's Marcus' lack of footballing nous leading to a number of poor managerial choices over the years. He will not put in place a modern managerial set up as exists elsewhere (including up the road) to develop a proper plan for him. Oh no, he's wanted to get more involved himself!


The 'Huddersfield Model' favoured by our neighbours is so last year. This year's model is very Sheff U.... and by forging an extended stay in division 3 - and developing a ball-playing central defender you could say Town are there already.

Add in the stability of a 5 year contract - and it's onwards and upwards

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Be under no illusion on 08:37 - Feb 13 with 1676 viewsGuthrum

Be under no illusion on 08:29 - Feb 13 by Herbivore

I don't buy the idea that Evans is happy for us to be a middling League 1 side and just cash in on any saleable assets. First off, we turned down offers for Judge in the summer and we turned down 7 figure offers in the window just gone. That doesn't suggest desperation to cash in and no ambition to go up. It's not the first time Evans has turned down sizeable bids for players either.

On top of that, the only chance ME has of ever getting any money back is by us playing at a higher level, either somehow getting up to the Prem or at least being able to claw in genuinely big fees for Downes and Woolfy as a Championship side. A club of our size is also a much more attractive prospect to a buyer in the Championship than in League 1. Being one step away from the Prem is more enticing to investors than being midtable in League 1.

I fully get the doom and gloom at the minute, our situation is hugely depressing. That said some of the speculative catastrophising is also a bit much. I don't see any evidence, past or present, to suggest that if we don't go up Evans will hold a fire sale and settle for being a midtable League 1 side.


On the fire sale aspect, there may be little choice. FFP regs on wages are much less stringent for a club's first season coming down to L1. Thereafter they tighten up. We may have to offload some players, especially any remaining high earners.

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Be under no illusion on 08:41 - Feb 13 with 1638 viewsGuthrum

Be under no illusion on 08:31 - Feb 13 by ElephantintheRoom

The 'Huddersfield Model' favoured by our neighbours is so last year. This year's model is very Sheff U.... and by forging an extended stay in division 3 - and developing a ball-playing central defender you could say Town are there already.

Add in the stability of a 5 year contract - and it's onwards and upwards


The question being whether Town fans have the patience to wait the decade that trajectory took to become a success.

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Be under no illusion on 08:43 - Feb 13 with 1632 viewsitfcjoe

A club of our size, with the investment ME is prepared to make should be a lower end Championship club, it’s certainly too big for L1 when you look around at the levels of investment by the owners in this division.

Unfortunately we are let down by poor decision making, the latest of which is a 5 year deal for a manager who looks as though he is past it

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Be under no illusion on 08:43 - Feb 13 with 1620 viewsHerbivore

Be under no illusion on 08:37 - Feb 13 by Guthrum

On the fire sale aspect, there may be little choice. FFP regs on wages are much less stringent for a club's first season coming down to L1. Thereafter they tighten up. We may have to offload some players, especially any remaining high earners.


I doubt it'll be a fire sale, we've got Bart off the books as our highest earner and Skuse is out of contract in the summer. I'd be happy to shift Judge regardless of what happens. Everyone else should be on relatively modest wages, possibly Huws and Chambers aside. We currently have a bloated squad that could do with trimming anyway but I don't see any reason to think we're going to panic sell every asset that we have.

I do wonder with our sponsorship deal up whether Evans might go back to sponsoring the club to enable him to add some capital to our turnover figure with FFP in mind. Isn't it also the case that there remains an exemption for any player signed on a 3 year plus deal before relegation as well? And I do wonder how stringently the rules are enforced as there's zero chance that Sunderland are operating within them.

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Be under no illusion on 08:45 - Feb 13 with 1606 viewsPaul_Knows

Woolfenden, Downes and Dozzell will all be sold for less than what they're actually worth as well, that's what will annoy me most.

I think we'll keep KVY, only because he's been injured for the majority of the season. But a good 6 months next year and he'd be off in January.

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Be under no illusion on 08:48 - Feb 13 with 1573 viewsElephantintheRoom

Be under no illusion on 08:41 - Feb 13 by Guthrum

The question being whether Town fans have the patience to wait the decade that trajectory took to become a success.


That may be... but the state of Town now probably dictates a bit of patience, which is why (I'm guessing) Evans has given Lambo 5 years - and intends to give it a go.

I'm coming round to the idea that a few years in this division - assuming some youth development and one Vincent-Young per year might be the best way forward.

Big assumption of course.

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Be under no illusion on 08:51 - Feb 13 with 1559 viewsGuthrum

Be under no illusion on 08:43 - Feb 13 by Herbivore

I doubt it'll be a fire sale, we've got Bart off the books as our highest earner and Skuse is out of contract in the summer. I'd be happy to shift Judge regardless of what happens. Everyone else should be on relatively modest wages, possibly Huws and Chambers aside. We currently have a bloated squad that could do with trimming anyway but I don't see any reason to think we're going to panic sell every asset that we have.

I do wonder with our sponsorship deal up whether Evans might go back to sponsoring the club to enable him to add some capital to our turnover figure with FFP in mind. Isn't it also the case that there remains an exemption for any player signed on a 3 year plus deal before relegation as well? And I do wonder how stringently the rules are enforced as there's zero chance that Sunderland are operating within them.


Yes, fire sale is much too strong a term. But there will have to be further trimming.

Sunderland has the advantage of 30k crowds every home game. Makes a considerable difference to turnover.

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Be under no illusion on 08:57 - Feb 13 with 1516 viewsHerbivore

Be under no illusion on 08:51 - Feb 13 by Guthrum

Yes, fire sale is much too strong a term. But there will have to be further trimming.

Sunderland has the advantage of 30k crowds every home game. Makes a considerable difference to turnover.


I'm not averse to trimming to be honest. The squad is too big and for me it's hindering the progress of some of our talented youngsters. I think losing Downes and Woolfy is inevitable and that may even be the case if we somehow go up, though we'd be in a stronger position to get a decent fee.

Regarding Sunderland, their turnover is bigger because of their average attendance but I'd still be very surprised if they're close to having a wage bill that's within 100% of their turnover, let alone 60%.

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Be under no illusion on 09:00 - Feb 13 with 1494 viewsSwansea_Blue

Groundhog Day innit. We've been having these discussions in the context of the Championship for years. Now it's in League 1. What's the betting within 3 years we'll be having the same discussions in League 2? ('Surely this team is strong enought to get promoted from the National League at the first attempt...')

I'm sure he's not 'happy', but can't find that midas touch needed to get us to a position of strength within the finaicial constraints.

He's got exatly the same finaincial problems in this league as he had in the Cahmpionship, so I don't think it should be seen as the easy option to just stay here mid table.

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Be under no illusion on 09:01 - Feb 13 with 1483 viewscallis

This week has been hella depressing for OPs on here. Can we go back to being good so we can argue about politics please rather than collectively feeling like a deflated balloon?

My hip flask is full of whiskey but my soul feels empty.
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Be under no illusion on 09:07 - Feb 13 with 1447 viewsDeano69

We have now successfully built a League 1 team, as you say 'Operation Build a League 2 Team' will commence if we don't go up.

Very sad times...

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