| The government's immigration policy 06:33 - Feb 19 with 11480 views | gerryitfc |
Controversial for many yet acceptable for others. The one thing which stands out for me and imho is correct is the new benefits rule. I can't see why anyone would be hostile to this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421 |  | | |  |
| The government's immigration policy on 06:39 - Feb 19 with 5631 views | BlueBadger |
Because not enough British people are willing and/or able to do those jobs. The care sector, which is inexplicably deemed 'low skills' will be very hard hit by this. |  |
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| The government's immigration policy on 06:55 - Feb 19 with 5607 views | Leaky |
| The government's immigration policy on 06:39 - Feb 19 by BlueBadger |
Because not enough British people are willing and/or able to do those jobs. The care sector, which is inexplicably deemed 'low skills' will be very hard hit by this. |
My partner works in care ,the number of courses she has to do would suggest it is not low skilled. So yes there pay rates need to increase. |  | | |
| The government's immigration policy on 06:57 - Feb 19 with 5602 views | BlueBadger |
| The government's immigration policy on 06:55 - Feb 19 by Leaky |
My partner works in care ,the number of courses she has to do would suggest it is not low skilled. So yes there pay rates need to increase. |
Officially it's classified as 'low skilled'.
A lot of people in the sector are understandably concerned.
And people need to get over their petty xenophobia. [Post edited 19 Feb 2020 7:08]
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| The government's immigration policy on 07:32 - Feb 19 with 5539 views | HARRY10 |
That's because you probably don't understand the benefit system
Remove the state subsidies to employers and they would have to pay minimum wage workers far more to cover the high cost of rent, among other things.
The irony here being the UK government has had the ability to do most of this previous;y. Anyone migrating to the UK could be sdeported after three months if they could not support themselves The UK chose not to implement that ruling.
The idea thie will gfree up employment for UK nationals is nonsense. If you are moving from Po;and sharing a small two bed flat with two kids is still a massive step up, as is the purchasing power of your wages. Therefore you will move to where you are needed.
Is a UK family in a large council house up north going to want to do the same ? No. As the evidence already shows.
All that will happen will be production which depends on low skilled workers will simply move to where they are -rather than them moving to the work,
Previously it had to be workerd moving as mines and mills could not be moved. Unfortunately for brexiteers alot has changed since the 1950's. | | | |
| The government's immigration policy on 07:37 - Feb 19 with 5535 views | Churchman |
| The government's immigration policy on 06:55 - Feb 19 by Leaky |
My partner works in care ,the number of courses she has to do would suggest it is not low skilled. So yes there pay rates need to increase. |
Having seen the care system up close when my mum was ill/in Asterbury care home for 2 or 3 years, I would describe the people that work within it anything but ‘low skilled’. The work they did (and of course still do) was truly amazing. I couldn’t have done it. They deserve far more support and recognition, including better pay.
As for the principle of the Immigration policy, which is based on the Australian one, I have no problem with it. It’s all about how it’s implemented. |  | | |
| The government's immigration policy on 07:50 - Feb 19 with 5512 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The government's immigration policy on 06:39 - Feb 19 by BlueBadger |
Because not enough British people are willing and/or able to do those jobs. The care sector, which is inexplicably deemed 'low skills' will be very hard hit by this. |
There will probably be exempt sectors. Care home I know well is already actively recruiting from outside the EU.
Brussel sprouts might be a problem though.
Edit; Good news for sprout lovers - points offered for "working in a sector with shortages" [Post edited 19 Feb 2020 7:58]
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:17 - Feb 19 with 5441 views | lowhouseblue |
can't see that it will work like this in practice. exemptions will emerge as they always do because they have to - and the government will pretend they haven't. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:19 - Feb 19 with 5443 views | itfcjoe |
Everything will have to get more expensive, as there is a need for low skilled immigrants to cover a vast array of jobs, jobs that British people simply won't and don't do as the pay and conditions are too poor.
There needed to be some form of transition for this, to try and close the gap. |  |
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:23 - Feb 19 with 5416 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:19 - Feb 19 by itfcjoe |
Everything will have to get more expensive, as there is a need for low skilled immigrants to cover a vast array of jobs, jobs that British people simply won't and don't do as the pay and conditions are too poor.
There needed to be some form of transition for this, to try and close the gap. |
What sort of society do we live in where the indigenous population believes that itbis farvtoo superior to undertake certain jobs but foreigners aren’t?
There is a word for it surely? |  |
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:25 - Feb 19 with 5392 views | homer_123 |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:19 - Feb 19 by itfcjoe |
Everything will have to get more expensive, as there is a need for low skilled immigrants to cover a vast array of jobs, jobs that British people simply won't and don't do as the pay and conditions are too poor.
There needed to be some form of transition for this, to try and close the gap. |
Yet, we, as a society encourage and enforce such jobs and situations by not wanting to pay more. At a basic level, we appear very happy to get our cars washed at the local 'polish' car wash for example but refuse to pay good money for health, social and childcare.
We are part of the problem. |  |
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:34 - Feb 19 with 5365 views | itfcjoe |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:23 - Feb 19 by GlasgowBlue |
What sort of society do we live in where the indigenous population believes that itbis farvtoo superior to undertake certain jobs but foreigners aren’t?
There is a word for it surely? |
I don't think it is about being superior, it is that the jobs don't allow you to live what we'd describe as a 'normal' life.
We have a Romanian guy working for us, when he first came over he was living with 2 friends in a caravan in a field - no heating, no electric, sending all money back home, etc. Now he's been with us a few years and feels secure in his job he has a place here, has moved his family over etc.
But he's lucky* that he's found an employer who treats him as a normal 'British' worker, pays him a decent wage, gives him holidays, employs him as opposed to doing it through agency, works vehicle, etc. Most of his peers who are across here (he came across originally to do farm work with them) are still living in squalor, 8-10 to a house, families back home, presumably zero hours and seasonal work.
British people, or those with their roots here couldn't work in those conditions, probably taking home less than £40 a day as there is no point in doing so with the cost of living. For them, their rents are split 8 ways on a 3 bed house (about £800 in Ipswich), all their bills are too, and they will all cook and eat together saving that way. But that money sent home, that £100 a week spare will go a long way for their families.
I've looked at other properties with investors down by Coes in town, families paying £5-600 a month for a squalid 1 bed flat, kids sleeping in the lounge, the footprint of 25-30m2 for a family of 4-5.
These jobs aren't suddenly going to become well paid enough to live a normal life on (your own house, with a working partner, maybe kids), and so people just won't do them - there is no point. There are no progression routes from them.
*I don't mean that in a self aggrandising way | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:38 - Feb 19 with 5344 views | itfcjoe |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:25 - Feb 19 by homer_123 |
Yet, we, as a society encourage and enforce such jobs and situations by not wanting to pay more. At a basic level, we appear very happy to get our cars washed at the local 'polish' car wash for example but refuse to pay good money for health, social and childcare.
We are part of the problem. |
I'm not sure it's about not 'wanting' to pay more, if things cos more then there would be no choice.
But if you are on a tight budget and you can get a chicken for £4 or £2 then you get the cheaper one, it is an obvious link when you think about the conditions they are reared in and supplied in but most people won't be thinking about that at the time | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:41 - Feb 19 with 5332 views | Guthrum |
So they can continue to access what are already the most common benefits (income-related, in work*), but not the ones which everybody, including British nationals, find extraordinarily difficult (unemployment)? Should make very little difference whatsoever.
* Tho I have excluded the State Pension from this. |  |
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| The Brexit wheels are truly falling off on this new immigration policy on 08:44 - Feb 19 with 5315 views | unstableblue |
Project Fear coming to fruition, because it was evidence and expert based. Whereas Leave was an emotive sound bite.
First key point - this morning I listened to a leader of the Care Industry who has been advising government. Very critical of the immigration plan - there are 125,000 open positions in care. Only 'unskilled' (there is nothing unskilled about social care) and low paid European workers are propping up the system.
The service sector also needs this European workforce - hotels/restaurants, the lucrative UK tourist market needs this flexing pool of labour.
The laughable concept that there is a ready made UK workforce is a fallacy. So we will end up reducing these measures - measures which in some cases will increase South Asian immigration and take jobs UK people actually want.
Then there are of course the regulations that oiled a friction less trade zone and were not the demonised Brussels control sold to us by Farage and the tabloids.
I do see an outcome where we are outside looking in to Europe, not influencing, aligned with EU specifications, with a poor immigration situation, having spent billions on building bureaucracy back into UK government, economically weaker, and with a Union in turmoil.
Stronger borders and 'taking back control' were sound bites I'm afraid. One things is for sure Brexit is only just beginning people. [Post edited 19 Feb 2020 8:49]
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:49 - Feb 19 with 5286 views | Guthrum |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:25 - Feb 19 by homer_123 |
Yet, we, as a society encourage and enforce such jobs and situations by not wanting to pay more. At a basic level, we appear very happy to get our cars washed at the local 'polish' car wash for example but refuse to pay good money for health, social and childcare.
We are part of the problem. |
Altho there is also the cycle of higher prices pushing up wage demands, causing rampant inflation.
My first job, in a consulting engineer's office, paid £1 an hour. That was only 35 years ago. Minimum wage for a 16-year-old is now over four times that, eight times for an adult.
Prices have kept pace - of necessity, as wages are a large part of the cost of anything we buy. | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 08:56 - Feb 19 with 5266 views | Guthrum |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:23 - Feb 19 by GlasgowBlue |
What sort of society do we live in where the indigenous population believes that itbis farvtoo superior to undertake certain jobs but foreigners aren’t?
There is a word for it surely? |
It is possible to have a form of Helotage, where relatively cheap foreign labour (still earning better money than at home) funds a good standard of living for the natives*. But that only works if you tax heavily the companies making money through using that workforce - the one thing recent governments have been scared of doing.
* Particularly, say, if you have an ageing population increasingly economically unproductive of itself. | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:02 - Feb 19 with 5249 views | Herbivore |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:25 - Feb 19 by homer_123 |
Yet, we, as a society encourage and enforce such jobs and situations by not wanting to pay more. At a basic level, we appear very happy to get our cars washed at the local 'polish' car wash for example but refuse to pay good money for health, social and childcare.
We are part of the problem. |
But a lot of low paid work is actually government funded, ultimately. The majority of care work, where many earn minimum wage or not much more, being a prime example. In other sectors like farming their margins are do tight because of the way big supermarkets keep prices down that they can't really afford to pay more than minimum wage. I'm not sure it's as straightforward as being about people not wanting to pay more. |  |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:05 - Feb 19 with 5233 views | Guthrum |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:34 - Feb 19 by itfcjoe |
I don't think it is about being superior, it is that the jobs don't allow you to live what we'd describe as a 'normal' life.
We have a Romanian guy working for us, when he first came over he was living with 2 friends in a caravan in a field - no heating, no electric, sending all money back home, etc. Now he's been with us a few years and feels secure in his job he has a place here, has moved his family over etc.
But he's lucky* that he's found an employer who treats him as a normal 'British' worker, pays him a decent wage, gives him holidays, employs him as opposed to doing it through agency, works vehicle, etc. Most of his peers who are across here (he came across originally to do farm work with them) are still living in squalor, 8-10 to a house, families back home, presumably zero hours and seasonal work.
British people, or those with their roots here couldn't work in those conditions, probably taking home less than £40 a day as there is no point in doing so with the cost of living. For them, their rents are split 8 ways on a 3 bed house (about £800 in Ipswich), all their bills are too, and they will all cook and eat together saving that way. But that money sent home, that £100 a week spare will go a long way for their families.
I've looked at other properties with investors down by Coes in town, families paying £5-600 a month for a squalid 1 bed flat, kids sleeping in the lounge, the footprint of 25-30m2 for a family of 4-5.
These jobs aren't suddenly going to become well paid enough to live a normal life on (your own house, with a working partner, maybe kids), and so people just won't do them - there is no point. There are no progression routes from them.
*I don't mean that in a self aggrandising way |
The other issue is where jobs are being created in relation to where the UK population are living now. There are still major concentrations in the old industrial and mining areas (parts of the North, South Wales), where ther is really very little now. Jobs are being created in the South East (close to London) and in Manchester.
With the shortage of housing, expense of moving and lack of job security, you aren't going to see the instant mass migration of the early decades of the Industrial Revolution, when vast numbers fled the impoverished countryside for the booming factory zones. They may have lived in slums, but those weren't an awful lot worse than farmworkers' cottages and at least the money was much better, with less chance of starving.
Nowadays, moving to London is prohibitive unless you already have a good job or savings. Manchester increasingly the same. | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:11 - Feb 19 with 5204 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:56 - Feb 19 by Guthrum |
It is possible to have a form of Helotage, where relatively cheap foreign labour (still earning better money than at home) funds a good standard of living for the natives*. But that only works if you tax heavily the companies making money through using that workforce - the one thing recent governments have been scared of doing.
* Particularly, say, if you have an ageing population increasingly economically unproductive of itself. |
That’s a fair point but it still makes me feel uncomfortable that cheap foreign labour creates an underclass.
In an ideal world all employment would be valued and paid at a far higher rate. | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:12 - Feb 19 with 5203 views | Herbivore |
| The government's immigration policy on 09:11 - Feb 19 by GlasgowBlue |
That’s a fair point but it still makes me feel uncomfortable that cheap foreign labour creates an underclass.
In an ideal world all employment would be valued and paid at a far higher rate. |
You're becoming a socialist. | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:14 - Feb 19 with 5198 views | Herbivore |
| The government's immigration policy on 08:41 - Feb 19 by Guthrum |
So they can continue to access what are already the most common benefits (income-related, in work*), but not the ones which everybody, including British nationals, find extraordinarily difficult (unemployment)? Should make very little difference whatsoever.
* Tho I have excluded the State Pension from this. |
I think the article is saying that access to income-related (therefore in work) benefits will stop. Which will cause some problems potentially as if we are no longer willing to prop up low wages for those willing to earn them regardless of where they were born then certain sectors just won't be able to recruit. | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:19 - Feb 19 with 5179 views | chicoazul |
| The government's immigration policy on 07:50 - Feb 19 by Lord_Lucan |
There will probably be exempt sectors. Care home I know well is already actively recruiting from outside the EU.
Brussel sprouts might be a problem though.
Edit; Good news for sprout lovers - points offered for "working in a sector with shortages" [Post edited 19 Feb 2020 7:58]
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It already sounds like there will be loads of wiggle room. |  |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:20 - Feb 19 with 5173 views | footers |
| The government's immigration policy on 09:12 - Feb 19 by Herbivore |
You're becoming a socialist. |
And there was me thinking whatever price the market pays is, by definition, fair. Hmm.
P.S. It's a rubbish idea. |  |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:23 - Feb 19 with 5159 views | chicoazul |
| The government's immigration policy on 09:11 - Feb 19 by GlasgowBlue |
That’s a fair point but it still makes me feel uncomfortable that cheap foreign labour creates an underclass.
In an ideal world all employment would be valued and paid at a far higher rate. |
FORWARD TO FREEDOM COMRADE | |
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| The government's immigration policy on 09:25 - Feb 19 with 5149 views | Guthrum |
| The government's immigration policy on 09:14 - Feb 19 by Herbivore |
I think the article is saying that access to income-related (therefore in work) benefits will stop. Which will cause some problems potentially as if we are no longer willing to prop up low wages for those willing to earn them regardless of where they were born then certain sectors just won't be able to recruit. |
I read it the other way, as targeting those mythical "benefit tourists". | |
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