| Not a good day for the Government in the media 10:16 - Apr 2 with 8261 views | itfcjoe |
Seems almost every front page has turned on them
They are in a mess with all this testing, or lack of testing - and not communicating a clear message now. The lockdown was probably too late, and now the death toll is rising whilst 'Stay at home, stay safe' is still the only message
WHO have been saying Test, Test, Test - 2.5 weeks ago we said we wouldn't be testing - and now we need to start testing we are way behind the rest of the world in sourcing anything.
Boris wanted to come out of this looking like Churchill, he won't. |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:59 - Apr 2 with 778 views | Guthrum |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:52 - Apr 2 by monytowbray |
There's difficulty in organising, and then there's a lack of transparency and twisting facts though. |
Yes, but if you stand up behind a lectern and say "We're struggling to cope with this situation", then you engender panic, other politicians seize it as an opportunity for attack, everyone loses confidence in you (despite the honesty) and you become less able to effectively do your job. Nobody says "Oh, how refreshingly open and honest". |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:01 - Apr 2 with 765 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:52 - Apr 2 by monytowbray |
There's difficulty in organising, and then there's a lack of transparency and twisting facts though. |
Politicians the world over see admitting to mistakes as a sign of weakness. |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:10 - Apr 2 with 738 views | monytowbray |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:01 - Apr 2 by Pinewoodblue |
Politicians the world over see admitting to mistakes as a sign of weakness. |
Getting caught with your pants down is equally as damaging though. Biden's been hammering Trump. |  |
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| Ridiculous on 12:16 - Apr 2 with 721 views | unstableblue |
| At least we are not in the USA Joe... on 11:14 - Apr 2 by unstableblue |
.... where the press are not even allowed to questions the leaders on any issues?!
Trump calls any challenging question'nasty' and fake news, 'you're a terrible reporter', and ignores them
Interestingly, when his ally Fox News does finally question him a challenging way (so he has to answer) he plain lies and then starts to say "are you becoming CNN" so straight up challenging that any media scrutiny is even allowed:
https://theintercept.com/2020/04/01/trump-lies-cutting-white-house-pandemic-team
Again this comes back to Boris and his key ministers refusing to go on the Today programme as they knew it was intense scrutiny, so they avoided with fluffy comments on BBC bias |
Its like Trump thinks he can shut down something that questions him or exposes his mishandling - by saying 'you're CNN' 'you're fake news'
From Wikipedia' definition of an authoritarian state:
Manipulation of information
According to a 2019 study by Sergei Guriev and Daniel Treisman, authoritarian regimes have over time become less reliant on violence and mass repression to maintain control. The study shows instead that authoritarians have increasingly resorted to manipulation of information as a means of control. Authoritarians increasingly seek to create an appearance of good performance, conceal state repression, and imitate democracy |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:17 - Apr 2 with 717 views | gordon |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:59 - Apr 2 by Guthrum |
Yes, but if you stand up behind a lectern and say "We're struggling to cope with this situation", then you engender panic, other politicians seize it as an opportunity for attack, everyone loses confidence in you (despite the honesty) and you become less able to effectively do your job. Nobody says "Oh, how refreshingly open and honest". |
They are in massive danger of losing credibility, though, if they just refuse to acknowledge problems, particularly in regards to PPE.
They're probably going to have to try to shift the blame onto people 'not complying' with the lockdown rules at some point, it will be interesting to see to what extent they get support for that from the tabloids / BBC etc. |  | | |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:18 - Apr 2 with 716 views | WeWereZombies |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:10 - Apr 2 by monytowbray |
Getting caught with your pants down is equally as damaging though. Biden's been hammering Trump. |
I think you could have phrased that bit better, but then again I have been catching up on my Storyvilles and watched 'The Rise and Fall of a Gay Porn Star' last night (which is reasonably discreet as far as the club scenes and film footage go, and didn't make this heterosexual aroused or challenged. Just a sad story of a lost boy.) |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:19 - Apr 2 with 707 views | Guthrum |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:52 - Apr 2 by giant_stow |
What?!
Fancy telling the tale? |
Mid 1942 things were not going well. The bombing campaign was a shambles, the loss of Hong Kong, the fall of Singapore, on the retreat in North Africa, struggling in the Atlantic.
Churchill was floundering. He sounds like an extremely exasperating person to work for, coming out with a stream of ideas, 90% of which were beyond impractical, yet he would argue them until he was blue in the face. He'd got rid of one Chief of the Imperial General Staff for being obstructive and drove his successor to a near nervous breakdown.
He wasn't providing dynamic leadership and there was serious consideration given to replacing Churchill as Prime Minister. The lustre of 1940 was wearing off with the public a bit, too.
Towards the end of the year, the situation stabilised, with Rommel first stopped, then decisively beaten, in North Africa. Churchill survived (partly also because I'm not sure they knew who to replace him with).
Then, three years later, Churchill suffered a landslide defeat in the 1945 General Election. | |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:24 - Apr 2 with 691 views | Guthrum |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:10 - Apr 2 by monytowbray |
Getting caught with your pants down is equally as damaging though. Biden's been hammering Trump. |
Biden's been hammering Trump, but the latter is still catching him up in the poll ratings. | |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:36 - Apr 2 with 672 views | EdwardStone |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:14 - Apr 2 by factual_blue |
His appeasement policy was, however, wise.
It's worth remembering that overall the British performed less well militarily during WW2 than some would have us believe. That's partly because Churchill got in first with his history of the war, and that's basically the version most people believe. |
Had we gone to war in 1938 we would have lost
The extra year bought by appeasement gave the time to re-arm and re-equip the RAF and refine and deploy RDF (radar), without which the outcome of the Battle of Britain would have been very different
And not in a good way |  | | |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:44 - Apr 2 with 640 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:59 - Apr 2 by Guthrum |
Yes, but if you stand up behind a lectern and say "We're struggling to cope with this situation", then you engender panic, other politicians seize it as an opportunity for attack, everyone loses confidence in you (despite the honesty) and you become less able to effectively do your job. Nobody says "Oh, how refreshingly open and honest". |
Bizarrely I seem to now be involved in the PPE industry. Because of a relationship we have with a certain manufacturer in China I just took a call from someone who seems to be in the loop with government action and procurement and the complexity is absolutely staggering.
It's fine for people on here to criticise but they have no idea quite frankly and are talking gibberish, I am quite shocked by what I just heard.
I can't really go into things in detail but loosely speaking - the new pregnancy type tests will not be as useful as thought, the current tests are not as useful as the public think, oh and Trump has sent his merry men to China and they are ordering up everything and current orders in the system for other countries are being thrown in the bin.
The Yanks are strong arming it. |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:46 - Apr 2 with 633 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:10 - Apr 2 by monytowbray |
Getting caught with your pants down is equally as damaging though. Biden's been hammering Trump. |
That doesn’t have any impact on half the population of the US anyone who votes Republican will just ignore it. What it needs is for senior Republicans to speak out, There is little chance of that happening as in their eyes any Republican President is preferable to a Democrat. | |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:52 - Apr 2 with 613 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 10:44 - Apr 2 by monytowbray |
Does this mean the papers are “Political point scoring” too?  I got dog’s abuse for saying we’re not testing enough over a week ago.
The handling of this whole ordeal has been completely winged by our government, with continual incorrect or late actions, no real short term vision for how it affects most the population day to day with finances, yet people are swallowing every bit of spin they throw.
As I said yesterday, many people seem to be in an abusive relationship with the Tories and still can’t see they are being gaslighted. “Herd immunity” was never the plan too apparently. |
Ok. I was self ignoring you but you’ve obviously aimed this cheap “abusive relationship with the Tories” jibe at me. So just to clarify.
You won’t be able to find a single lost from me congratulating “the Tories” on the handling of this crisis. The only time I’ve come close to that was with the financial aid package that will most likely keep my business going for a few more months.
From day one, I and many others, have said that I am listening to the advice of the CMO and CSA.
I’ve criticised the communication for “the Tories” and I’ve said that they have done enough for the self employed or the renters.
I also never denied that herd herd immunity’s was part of the plan. In fact I made it perfectly clear that it was just one part. Again you wilfully ignored what I posted and prefer to indulge in cheap point scoring by telling lies.
I see you’ve managed to make this thread all about you. “I got dogs abuse for saying we weren’t retesting enough”. Did you! Have you a linked course there should be more testing. Even more importantly, the test to see if people have already recovered from the virus needs to be fast tracked so those who have built up immunity can get back out into the real world.
So just to clarify, no one has been spinning or cheerleading for “the Tories”. You’re the only person who constantly bangs on about “the Tories”.
So for the last time. I have no issue with critics of the government’s handling of this crisis. What I have always taken issue with you over is your cheap attacks at people like Whitty and Valance whose professional integrity you called into question and your childish claim that the Tories were using this virus to kill poor people. |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:53 - Apr 2 with 612 views | NthQldITFC |
There's a line in the story below that says...
"One large English district hospital in the Midlands reported it was only able to test three staff members per day due to a lack of swabs, NHS Providers said."
This surely doesn't mean that they are only testing three staff members a day because they don't have enough cotton wool on sticks to wipe in peoples mouths or noses? Or am I misunderstanding? If not, surely it's possible to improvise a bit? I'm sure I'm wrong but that sounds on the face of it to a layman like me like a bit of a weak reason. Absolutely no offence intended, and massive respect to all NHS staff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52130230 |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:02 - Apr 2 with 571 views | gordon |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:52 - Apr 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Ok. I was self ignoring you but you’ve obviously aimed this cheap “abusive relationship with the Tories” jibe at me. So just to clarify.
You won’t be able to find a single lost from me congratulating “the Tories” on the handling of this crisis. The only time I’ve come close to that was with the financial aid package that will most likely keep my business going for a few more months.
From day one, I and many others, have said that I am listening to the advice of the CMO and CSA.
I’ve criticised the communication for “the Tories” and I’ve said that they have done enough for the self employed or the renters.
I also never denied that herd herd immunity’s was part of the plan. In fact I made it perfectly clear that it was just one part. Again you wilfully ignored what I posted and prefer to indulge in cheap point scoring by telling lies.
I see you’ve managed to make this thread all about you. “I got dogs abuse for saying we weren’t retesting enough”. Did you! Have you a linked course there should be more testing. Even more importantly, the test to see if people have already recovered from the virus needs to be fast tracked so those who have built up immunity can get back out into the real world.
So just to clarify, no one has been spinning or cheerleading for “the Tories”. You’re the only person who constantly bangs on about “the Tories”.
So for the last time. I have no issue with critics of the government’s handling of this crisis. What I have always taken issue with you over is your cheap attacks at people like Whitty and Valance whose professional integrity you called into question and your childish claim that the Tories were using this virus to kill poor people. |
Whitty and Vallance have already had their professional judgement robustly challenged by others within the field of public health and epidemiology.
I sometimes get the impression on here that there's a sense that scientists shouldn't ever be questioned or challenged. Actually in academia a really large part of what goes on is people rigorously challenging the assumptions and analysis of other researchers - that's how you end up with good scientists.
As such, they will have very, very thick skin and wouldn't bat an eyelid at anything written on here whether the criticism was valid or not. | | | |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:04 - Apr 2 with 561 views | gordon |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:53 - Apr 2 by NthQldITFC |
There's a line in the story below that says...
"One large English district hospital in the Midlands reported it was only able to test three staff members per day due to a lack of swabs, NHS Providers said."
This surely doesn't mean that they are only testing three staff members a day because they don't have enough cotton wool on sticks to wipe in peoples mouths or noses? Or am I misunderstanding? If not, surely it's possible to improvise a bit? I'm sure I'm wrong but that sounds on the face of it to a layman like me like a bit of a weak reason. Absolutely no offence intended, and massive respect to all NHS staff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52130230 |
Presumably the person who knows how to update the preferred supplier register on the computer system is off sick. | | | |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:06 - Apr 2 with 562 views | factual_blue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 12:36 - Apr 2 by EdwardStone |
Had we gone to war in 1938 we would have lost
The extra year bought by appeasement gave the time to re-arm and re-equip the RAF and refine and deploy RDF (radar), without which the outcome of the Battle of Britain would have been very different
And not in a good way |
Once the Dominion Prime Ministers (S Africa, Australia, NZ, Canada) made it clear they wouldn't find a war about Czechoslovakia, the possibility of the UK fighting was non-existent. |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:11 - Apr 2 with 551 views | factual_blue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:37 - Apr 2 by monytowbray |
If they had of carried on putting pressure on us in the air I understand we would have ended up losing too many aircrafts to carry on. Sending planes out was more of a deterrent than anything. A lost response is better than no response. |
An invasion depended on controlling the channel. General Ironside's stop line defences would have slowed the invasion forces, enabling the fleet to sail down from Scapa Flow and control the Channel, cutting off the troops already in England.
Then the Canadians would have arrived. The Germans feared the Canadians even more than they did the Scots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)
http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/seelowe.txt | |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:13 - Apr 2 with 542 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:02 - Apr 2 by gordon |
Whitty and Vallance have already had their professional judgement robustly challenged by others within the field of public health and epidemiology.
I sometimes get the impression on here that there's a sense that scientists shouldn't ever be questioned or challenged. Actually in academia a really large part of what goes on is people rigorously challenging the assumptions and analysis of other researchers - that's how you end up with good scientists.
As such, they will have very, very thick skin and wouldn't bat an eyelid at anything written on here whether the criticism was valid or not. |
Callis didn’t challenge Whitty and Valence professional judgement. He challenge their integrity. He accused them of being paid shills.
Their judgement and competence can quite rightly be challenged. That’s completely different to what Callis has been doing.
He’s used this crisis as an opportunity to score cheap points in an internet message board from day one.
I’m not bothering to reply to him any more but I’m not letting his lies regarding what I have posted go unchallenged. Imo he needs to take himself of the internet until this is all over. [Post edited 2 Apr 2020 13:24]
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:13 - Apr 2 with 541 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:02 - Apr 2 by gordon |
Whitty and Vallance have already had their professional judgement robustly challenged by others within the field of public health and epidemiology.
I sometimes get the impression on here that there's a sense that scientists shouldn't ever be questioned or challenged. Actually in academia a really large part of what goes on is people rigorously challenging the assumptions and analysis of other researchers - that's how you end up with good scientists.
As such, they will have very, very thick skin and wouldn't bat an eyelid at anything written on here whether the criticism was valid or not. |
Neither Whitty, nor Vallence, will be expressing personal opinions but they will represent the majority opinion. There will always be a minority with different views.
In much the same way as you express contra opinions on here | |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:16 - Apr 2 with 543 views | factual_blue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:59 - Apr 2 by Guthrum |
Yes, but if you stand up behind a lectern and say "We're struggling to cope with this situation", then you engender panic, other politicians seize it as an opportunity for attack, everyone loses confidence in you (despite the honesty) and you become less able to effectively do your job. Nobody says "Oh, how refreshingly open and honest". |
I have a feeling that brexit has a role to play in this. Presumably the government is reluctant to engage with EU procurement processes.
They did after all 'forget' to engage with some Covid-related research or something recently.
Except of course they didn't 'forget'. The Civil Service doesn't let Ministers 'forget' things. Ministers to a decision deliberately to 'forget'. | |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:24 - Apr 2 with 528 views | BloomBlue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:02 - Apr 2 by gordon |
Whitty and Vallance have already had their professional judgement robustly challenged by others within the field of public health and epidemiology.
I sometimes get the impression on here that there's a sense that scientists shouldn't ever be questioned or challenged. Actually in academia a really large part of what goes on is people rigorously challenging the assumptions and analysis of other researchers - that's how you end up with good scientists.
As such, they will have very, very thick skin and wouldn't bat an eyelid at anything written on here whether the criticism was valid or not. |
But that's the problem put 10 scientists in a room and the only result you can guarantee is all 10 will never agree on everything.
The issue on here is all people do is post a link from another scientist as 'fact' but you'll always get scientists who disagree often using hindsight in their evidence and then the OP will say scientist A is useless because scientist B disagrees. |  | | |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:26 - Apr 2 with 527 views | factual_blue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 11:38 - Apr 2 by WeWereZombies |
It is not a question of believing Churchill's history of 'The Second World War' (in six volumes) but in appreciating that it is written with privileged information, few others could have had the perspective that he had. However it is not, for all its length and detail, a comprehensive account and should only be taken for what it is - a well written series by a leader at that time, and it does stray into autobiography a fair bit.
You should not discount it because other books, 'Nella Last's War: A Mother's Diary 1939-45' for example, shine a light where Churchill does not (and could not) or where an account with much hindsight and the release of information from the Official Secrets Act such as 'Enigma: The Battle for the Code' by Hugh Sebag-Montefiore benefit accordingly.
Inevitably there will be conflicts in the reading of 'what actually happened' and instances where Churchill gives an over favourable spin to events: The West Bengal Famine, the abandonment of the 51st (Highland) Division in June 1940, failure to rein in Truman on the atomic bomb, ease with which he fell under Stalin's spell. It is quite a calamitous list when viewed looking back but you need the perspective of 'The Second World War' in six volumes to understand why things happened in the way they did. |
I think Churchill said something along the lines of getting in first with his account of what happened.
Although probably with greater rhetorical flourish and less obvious cynicism. | |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:26 - Apr 2 with 528 views | Plums |
I think (hope) they are rapidly discovering that being wreckers is far easier than being operators. None of them with the exception of the Chancellor has shown that they are anywhere near competent enough. The irony of the press that largely put them in that position now having to side with the people against the self-styled peoples government is something political historians will have a field day with. |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:34 - Apr 2 with 511 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:13 - Apr 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Callis didn’t challenge Whitty and Valence professional judgement. He challenge their integrity. He accused them of being paid shills.
Their judgement and competence can quite rightly be challenged. That’s completely different to what Callis has been doing.
He’s used this crisis as an opportunity to score cheap points in an internet message board from day one.
I’m not bothering to reply to him any more but I’m not letting his lies regarding what I have posted go unchallenged. Imo he needs to take himself of the internet until this is all over. [Post edited 2 Apr 2020 13:24]
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Not defending anyone here, but we've got no way of knowing how much influence is being put on these people. I'd be very very surprised if they were given free reign in front of the press, for example. These things are tightly controlled with comms people all over them. In private briefings though, of course they will be thoroughly professional.
We only get to see the public face. For example, I thought Valence's attempt to defend the government position on his Sky interview was incredible muddled and contradictory. Maybe that says more about my understanding of things, but he didn't look like someone defending a position that made sense to himself. |  |
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| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:36 - Apr 2 with 504 views | monytowbray |
| Not a good day for the Government in the media on 13:13 - Apr 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Callis didn’t challenge Whitty and Valence professional judgement. He challenge their integrity. He accused them of being paid shills.
Their judgement and competence can quite rightly be challenged. That’s completely different to what Callis has been doing.
He’s used this crisis as an opportunity to score cheap points in an internet message board from day one.
I’m not bothering to reply to him any more but I’m not letting his lies regarding what I have posted go unchallenged. Imo he needs to take himself of the internet until this is all over. [Post edited 2 Apr 2020 13:24]
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Your deflection tactic that is desperate to dismiss maybe I had a point in recent weeks is really starting to make you look desperate.
Please tell me where i have lied? I'm just a citizen concerned about the situation we are in, the 10 years the nation voted for that led us here and the potential lives lost.
But if making up your own narrative makes you feel better, please feel free. | |
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